I know I should put on my ceramite armor for this idea, but I thought I'd float it out and see what response I get...

I'm thinking of doing something different with psychic phenomena in my game. Psychic phenomena are not caused on a roll of 9. Instead, when a psyker character is created a psychic phenomena is chosen for them (any damaging or "extra" effects of the phenomena are downgrade to a basically cosmetic level). Any use of psychic powers causes this phenomena to occur and the severity of the phenomena is based on the number of dice rolled. For instance, a telekine whose phenomena is Haunting Breeze, causes a slight flutter of wind if they use 1 die, or a gale that knocks over chairs if they use 6 dice.

Naturally, one side effect of this would be no Perils of the Warp. That is deliberate. I greatly dislike the idea that a completely random die roll with no real relation to the story has the potential to kill one or more characters. Instead, I consider Perils of the Warp to be simply a license to me, the GM, to include daemonic attacks, supernatural phenomena and general weirdness around the psyker... not because a random die roll tells me to but because I happen to feel like it.

The typical statements I have seen in favor of psychic phenomena and perils of the warp assert that they are necessary to "balance" psykers with other characters. Leaving aside my opinions on game balance (a concept I am at best ambivilent about), I think that this idea retains some of that balancing factor, in that psychic powers always cause strange happenings. It does put more of a burden on me, as the GM, to enforce the general public reactions to such phenomena, as well as to deliberately call in the Perils of Warp from time to time to keep psykers humble but as GM, I accept that.

Unfortunately, I don't have any PC psykers in my game just now, so this is currently just a though experiment.

It will give you (the GM) utter control of the perils, and on that account you can easily avoid having the group psyker ruin a mission by causing a mass possession in the middle of a crowded square (or sumfin' like it)

It will also elevate the psyker to a much more powerful character as his powers are now "free" to use.

Personally, I wouldn't go with this as psykers are quite powerfull as is. Nothing stops the psyker from wielding a boltgun and wearing power armor and with your approach the psyker will now also blast away with psychic powers with reckless abandon.

I really like how psykers present a player group with a "double edged sword" and that the perils of the warp remove the D&D wizard feel.

As a GM I have the pleasure of playing with a couple of psykers in two different groups and yes, there has been a few "incidents" but they have all been good fun, mostly because I see the Perils/phenomena table as "open to interpretation" and no more than a guideline. A single enemy npc psyker self-destructed beautifully when the players were gettting their butts kick by him, so it's not all bad.

All in all... I like the way psykers are handled and wouldn't change anything.

My two thrones

Serialkilla said:

I don't see that. Yes, psykers are powerful. They should be. Yes, psykers can use psychic powers. That's the point of playing a psyker. Still, I don't see the powers being "free" if they cause phenomena every single time they are used. No, the phenomena is not going blow you up in itself, but the mob of pitchfolk wielding maniacs lead by a redemtionist with a flamer sure is feth is going to ruin your day. Psykers are hated and feared. Every time you use your powers, you mark yourself as a psyker and people around you will respond with hate and fear. OK, you can blast them with you devistating psychic powers... which is fine on the battlefield (at least until that Monodominant inquisitor shows up) but not so helpful for the investigation part of the mission.

Powers aren't free, it's just that the price you pay to use them isn't tied to a die roll.

All of that said, I'm also pondering keeping the above idea by adding: When you roll a 9, you take a Fatigue level. So, you always invoke phenomena and on a 9 you take a Fatigue level as you struggle to control the powers of the Warp.

If thats what works for you then go for it.

But for myself and my players we like the random feel to the psychic phenomena. We have had some truely hilarious results of the psyker invoking the phenomena at critical times.

A good example of this we was when we were in a ground car chase with a group of heretics, the psyker tried to spams the cultists driver. He invoked the phenomena and promptly rolled the result that reverses gravity for a short time. Which caused our car and the cultists cars to launch up in the air bringing the chase to an impromptu and messy end.

I agree, if you are willing to take the heat and work to decide when the Perils happen instead of Chaos dicing it all the more power to you.

For mine I've done something similar. Every Psyker has a base 'effect' that happens everytime they tap into the Warp. Roll a 9 (or multiples) and that benign effect becomes much more dramatic and flirts with being harmful in ways. I still have them roll the percentile (once for every time they rolled a 9) and this is where things start to diverge. Baseline setup for a Psy 1 Psyker is the standard 75+ puts them into the Perils. Anything less is 'just' the magnified base effect tinged towards not helping them. Psy 2 shifts it up to 80+, Psy 3 at 85+, Psy 4 at 90+, Psy 5 at 95+, and Psy 6 at a flat 100. For the enterprising Psyker that likes to break the boundaries and supercharge their might with Sorcery from DotDG it drops the percentage down by 20 just like it says (ala even if you are amongst the most powerful Psykers at a Psy 6 and 'normally' wouldn't invoke Perils except on a 100 because you decided to flirt with more dangerous power it's now on an 80+, no the enterprising Psyker does not have their chance upped by either 5 or 10 cause their Psy went up by 1 or 2 from the talents, it's dangerous to do afterall) And of course I got rid of the talent Favored by the Warp.

The core concept behind this in my mind is that the increased use of dice is not just raw power but knowing how to pull the warp just plain better and 'less' dangerously. The culling of less capable Psykers before they learn how to control the Warp appropriately shows just how few live long enough to advance from Acolyte to Inquisitor, but also shows how Inquisitors can last for hundreds of years once they know how to use their powers appropriately (which of course says absolutely nothing about them being corrupted or driven insane). Like you said, even with the lessened chance of crazy random Perils it doesn't help with the crazy Puritan, or the scared and angry mob that wants to burn them at the stake (not to mention the many, many, many other things that can get in a Psykers 'way' despite having more possible access to their powers).

I don't like the idea. As you already mentioned, the only thing keeping psykers from using their powers from morning to evening is that they have to fear the phenomena and perils. Downgrading these to cosmetic effects trashes that balance.

As for your idea of social persecution... I don't see it happening. Your generic psyker has his visible sanctioning brand anyway. Anyone who wants to torch psykers already knows the character is one as soon as he is seen unless he goes to certain trouble to disguise it. Further, most, if not all, sanctioned psykers are pretty much owned by someone - a noble house, the planetary governor, a rogue trader, an inquisitor: Someone important who doesn't like his assets killed at a whim. People who kill sanctioned psykers without a good reason might find out how displeased their owners are about this.

Now with some kinds of psyker, the obviousness of powers may actually be a drawback - but you're forgetting that not all psy powers are meant to be unobtrusive in the first place. If I'm playing a pyromancer, chances are the effects of my powers are more obvious than any phenomena I invoke. Thus, I have no drawback.

Cifer said:

Here's a question: why shouldn't psykers be able to use their powers whenever they want? Other than the fact that we were all raised on D&D and the idea that magic-users only have a limited number of spell slots? Why shouldn't a character who has a special ability be able to use the ability that makes them special?

Basically, to me, the rules say "Yes, you can play a psyker. You get these powers but we have all these other rules to discourage you from using them." There are no rules discouraging a Guardsman from using his lasgun or an Assassin from using his sword or an Adept from using his lore skills... but psykers, oh no, we can't let psykers use their powers. Feh!

Here's a question: why shouldn't psykers be able to use their powers whenever they want? Other than the fact that we were all raised on D&D and the idea that magic-users only have a limited number of spell slots? Why shouldn't a character who has a special ability be able to use the ability that makes them special?

Because psyker powers are in addition to anything else the career has to offer. A psyker is generally the most versatile character and quite often the best on many fields.Take a look at Unnatural Aim and tell me he won't overshadow the guardsman on the first few ranks if there's no drawback of using it all the time.

The career was designed so it doesn't suffer from the generic "mana empty = stand around and twiddle thumbs" syndrome.

Basically, to me, the rules say "Yes, you can play a psyker. You get these powers but we have all these other rules to discourage you from using them." There are no rules discouraging a Guardsman from using his lasgun or an Assassin from using his sword or an Adept from using his lore skills... but psykers, oh no, we can't let psykers use their powers. Feh!

When was the last time you let a guardsman waltz into a ball-room with his Heavy Stubber? I'm curious.

Cifer said:

Depends on what's in the ball room.

I have never really understood why some GMs feel its necessary to divest characters from their gear. The whole "sure you can have power armor and a bolter, but for this adventure you wake up naked in a cell" scenario doesn't appeal to me.

Of course, I do see your point. Waltzing through the ballroom, the psyker is still capable of slaughtering the guests en-mass while the guardsman sans heavy stubber has to make do with his concealed compact laspistol. Of course, when the guests start spontaneously bursting into flames, it's the guy hovering a meter off the floor who the bodyguards are going to shoot at.

I have never really understood why some GMs feel its necessary to divest characters from their gear. The whole "sure you can have power armor and a bolter, but for this adventure you wake up naked in a cell" scenario doesn't appeal to me.

There's two variants of this scenario. The first one is "You wake up naked in a cell", the second one is "You're invited to a high-society event. If you want to have your guns, either expect very funny looks and kiss your anonymity good-bye or sell me your plan for getting them through the checkpoints". I like the second one a lot better since it leaves more control in the hands of the players, including the back-up plan of how to get to your gear ASAP when (generally it's a "when", not an "if") everything goes ploin-shaped.

Still, Dark Heresy is usually a game with a high amount of investigation, which in many cases isn't helped along with Power Armour and boltguns while you're still at the undercover part.

personally what i would like to see with the psychic phenomena is more of a cumalative effect, ie the more you use powers in the same area, the more chance of this going very wrong, perhaps modifyed by the power level of the power being used and te overbleed caused...

LuciusT said:

Mainly because the inherent danger of psyker is a major part of the setting all together.

With no " dangerous" phenomena, no deamon hosts, no chaotic randomness... I ask my self, why psykers would be feared and hunted in this setting, as they suddenly become very managable and quite forseeable.

Another reason: There's nothing stopping the psyker from joining the before mentioned guardsman, dressed i full power armor wielding a heavy stubber. The psyker may not be entirely as good at using the **** thing, but he can. And with the changes you suggest he will also be blasting away with the most powerful abilities at will (loaded up with drugs to reduce fatigue), with no danger to himself or the group.

The player group knows which perils comes with this particular psyker and can easily avoid any complications.

There will be no reason NOT to play a psyker and no second thoughts about bringing one into a group. They simply become gothic Gandalf's in power armor with bolt guns.

Psykers in DH are meant to be double edged swords, able to bend minds to their will, conjure up storms of soul searing fire and mend broken bodies in a spilt second. But at a cost. The cost is phenomena and perils and the dangers associated with them.

Couple of points

1. Other than the grand ol' D&D tradition of magic-users not wearing armor or wielding heavy weapons, I fail to see any problem with psykers wearing power armor and carrying bolters. Not that I have any intention of giving anyone access to power armor or bolters in my game.

2. Serialkilla's is exactly right, there is no reason not to play a psyker or have second thoughts about including one in the group. That's the point. To allow one of the most iconic character types in the 40K universe to be included in the game if that's what someone wants to play.

3. You're mistaking "no randomly determined perils of the warp" with "no perils of the warp." Just because I, as the GM, am in control of them doesn't mean they don't happen. It means they happen when I want them to. When I feel a psyker is overusing his power, I can smack him down as hard as I like.

Ultimately, my idea won't work for some groups. I know that. But as other people, posting on this very thread, have had and used similar ideas with success obviously it does work for some groups. I like Arbentur's idea of have the "standard" phenomena become increasing more sever and dangerous for each 9 rolled. I think I'll be using that.

Thanks for the insights guys, especially the guys who didn't like the idea.

LuciusT said:

It's a fair cup. I did kinda mistake the peril thing. I thought you were gonna give the psyker one constant phenomena, which then unfolds every time he uses his powers. The more powerful ability used the more powerful the phenomena becomes.

But still... I have to admit, I still don't see this working very well, as the phenomena becomes YOUR punishment to the player and not the Psyker punishing himself for being a warp sucking witch.

And how will you justify to the player that you are "demon-hosting" the psyker for spamming firebolts or that the entire area reverses gravity and kills ½ the group... or do these dangerous things just not happen anymore?

I guess most players would be pretty negative to see their rank 7 psyker getting sucked into the warp -just because you say so-

With a random roll, which he has survived with from the beginning, the player can say "At least I lasted this long"

Main thing here is that when you put yourself in absolute control, you also gain absolute responsibility.

>>I'm not trying to shoot this down, but I just wanna spin things in your head. I really like that you wish to improve the gaming experience for your group. Just so you know I'm not out to get you <<

Serialkilla said:

As I see it control over and responsibility for the events of the game is what the role of the GM is. In fact, that why I don't like the random results. They take the control out of my hands and put it in a the hands of a chart. If the control is in my hands, I can "tailor" the result to the events in my game and the actions of my players. As GM, I always have the power to say "rocks fall, everyone dies" but I don't because what fun would that be. So yes, while I could say "pop, your rank 7psyker is sucked into the warp, here's a new character sheet" I wouldn't because what fun would that be. On the other hand, if while the psyker is standing the crowded ball room, laughing and hurling firebolts at the guests, the air were to sudden shimmer and twist and daemonic forms take shape out of the flames... well that would be just cool!

Ultimately, it's about trust. I tell my player at the start: You're playing a psyker. You are are at risk of attracting attention from the powers of the Warp. You may be subject to daemonic attacks or strange supernatural events. Then, the player and I trust each other enough to not put everyone's fun at risk by not playing our roles correctly.

I'm interested in everyone having a good time and telling a good, shared story. I've been lucky enough to have players who agree with that philosophy and so had some fun games.

There are several house rules that I have been considering to apply to Psykers to either lower the chance of Perils of the Warp or make it more difficult to get the real perils.

1st) I allow a fate point to be spent to re-roll all Perils of the Warp even though normally you are only allowed to re-roll a test.

2nd) If a character uses the invocation skill successfully but rolls a 9, I allow due to their focus on activating the power that they only are able to get minor perils instead of major perils. Any roll over 75 remains at 75. This gives Psykers a little more freedom to use their powers more without the risk of ruining their characters lives, the mission, or the worst situation their allies lives. This makes Psykers have to think before they decide if they want their powers quickly or after taking some time to focus first which in turn uses up their actions for a round.

One thing I don't like about a permanent side effect is that it's predictable. It can also be used by the player to their benefit. Your example of a breeze that increases with force is that the player could use it to their advantage instead of the psychic power. Example they manifest some minor power but use extra dice to get the higher wind to knock down opponents, to counteract a gas, or fan the flames of a fire. Their needs to be some randomness so it isn't predictable. I'd use the tables but modify them. I also have problems with the instant death results that can occur. So just change them. Instead of being sucked into the warp have a rift open up at a certain distance from the player, have the demon possess a random NPC instead of the player, etc.

I was working on two other options to possibly lessen the chances of perils of the warp.

1) If a character chooses to use their invocation skill they can instead of getting the extra bonus of their willpower added, they can instead choose to lower their Pschic Phenomena roll by 10 points. This will decrease their chance of getting a 75 or higher since now they will need a 85 or higher to actually get Perils of the warp. Then I would allow while doing invocation for the character to choose to get no willpower bonuses at all to lower their Psychic Phenomena roll by 10 additional points. Again this would then mean they have to get a 95 or higher to actually get a perils of the warp. This would still also force them to use an entire turn up before trying to get a psychic power activated and make it harder to beat the threshold.

2) The other option I was thinking of was allowing a character who uses invocation successfully to ignore one 9 on their roll to activate a psychic power. This would allow lower threshold powers to be activated with only one die and not rish any phenomena, but higher thresholds or the chance for over bleeding to require more dice which would only lower the chances of getting phenomena. Again this would still come with the fact they must use an entire turn before actually activating a power.

Waste said:

A difference in style of play... where you see a problem, I see an opportunity. If the PCs can turn their liabilities into advantages I see that as a good thing. It inspires creativity and a good grasp of the character. Of course, turning your weaknesses into strengths isn't as easy as that. The wind that might knock down your foes effects your friends as well. The errant, directionless breeze you hope will blow away the poison or fan the flames might actually blow the gas right into your face or turn the flames to burn you. Psychic phenomena is the stuff of the Warp and the Warp is dangerous, malignant and cruel. Trying to turn that power to your advantage is the very nature and essence of being a psyker... and the deepest danger.

yes but what about the poor player who spends 2 hours working on this "perfect" psyker character, just to have his first 3 dice power roll end with (3) 9's and for his rolls, 3 perils (78,98,87) and the perils rolls were ( 97, 57, 00)........

after loosing 1 fate point just to get him upright again... he then preceded to do it twice more... at the end of the 3 hour gaming session he told me that "psykers Suck!!" and I don't Blame him. randomness is fine but that was rediculous. After RPing for over 25 years I have learned that if you do not want a roll to happen, IT WILL, all the time. Everyone of my psykers have killed themselves at least twice, and there are 3 in the party of 10 Players. (as a note the guy who Periled himself to death is now an Arbitrator and refuses to work with the psyker characters.)

If you play with fire you will get burned.

I guess I'm one who doesn't worry about losing a character, bad rolls happen. It's no different than someone getting a nasty rightious fury to the head and killed. It's all random, and decided by the dice and choices we make. I would rather have my fate decided by the dice than by my gm.

Look at the many ways random events kill the pc's, plasma overheat at the wrong time, Rightious fury, a bad climb roll that leads to a long fall. It's endless in the ways a random roll can kill you off. In my opinion, I would say it should always be by the dice. That greatest power wielded should carry the greatest risk, and one should accept that. It amazes me that people these days have a hard time dealing with characters dying, is it a symptom of video games? I am just curious, because some of my best memories of gaming have been my characters final events...

Personaly I preffer the dice over "because I say so". The random elements makes sure that sometimes people get supprised at the results, even the GM, and that is part of the fun. Sure, I don't like a random roll to suddenly kill a character (or all of them), but in DH Fate Points protect from that (and as the GM, you control how often they will get new points so if they have a string of bad luck you can fix it). But I guess that depends on your GMing style.

What I would be worried about is shifting the focus of the different powers. As someone mentioned a pyromancer throwing fireballs isn't going to care if a wind starts to blow every time he uses his powers, he is already as obvious as he can possibly become. For him the constant phenomenon is not really a drawback. However the telepath trying to glean information from the guests is going to get into slightly more trouble when all the statues starts to cry blood. He will really be hampered by the constant effect in a way the pyromancer won't.

Personaly I think most of the less obvious powers are far more interesting than "I blow stuff up with my mind", so I wouldn't want to shift focus to the latter.

LuciusT said:

Hi Lucius

I have seen that. In one of my two groups, the rules where changed to "warp effects only on two or more nines". The psyker is now very indiscriminate about his powers since he does not have to fear any effect.

@The killer perils
While I am of different opinion here (to me it IS story related, as well as fumbling round with unstable explosive would be story related. The story is that fumbling with unstable explosive or the warp is a heinous danger), how about changing the "Perils of the Warp" table to something less drastic, then? Coming up with new stuff should not be to much of a problem.

If it is the "table crunching" that bothers you ("hate interrupting my game for pulling out a table and start to role") simply role up three to five phenomena before play. One could even go so far to simply pic three to five and make them "dice scaled" as you inteded to do.

One of my problems with this is, characters can then never use their powers without drawing attention to themselves. So much for the sly Telepath who uses his powers to subtly influence people and open social doors for himself. This also means psykers can never subtly or secretly use powers against the pcs without giving themselves away. Might as well have them wear a point hat that says "psyker" on it everywhere they go.

Additionally, it removes all variability from the equation. That signature "breeze" may seem cool for a little while, but eventually it'll just get boring and even if it isn't glossed over in descriptions - as repetitive things eventually tend to be - the players will stop thinking about or appreciating it.