Calaron said:

I agree, this sucks. Part of this falls on the GM to adjust rolls so they don't kill a party outright, but of course that means he is basically ignoring the chart anyway.

One option might be to say the result happens - but not necessarily right now, or even to the PCs. Perhaps the disruption in the warp causes a gate to open elsewhere, or a mass possession to occur in another portion of the city, or even another planet. The GM notes the event and then at a later date uses it as a plot hook for the party. "As you hear the tragic story of the Arbiter who was consumed and possessed by a demon, a chill runs up your spine ... you cannot shake the idea that this is your fault, the result of your meddling with the warp ... you feel your fingerprints all over it, and how you have to decide what to do about that."

Really, though, I think a better Perils of the Warp chart is simply in order - one which is still dangerous and disturbing, but does not hold the promise of PC death.

Personally, I don't see what's wrong with the chart as it is. Psykers have incredible power, and with that power comes great danger to both mind and body. That's pretty much the entire premise of 40k: the warp is powerful, subversive, and aware . Reduce that to something predictable, and you are not just changing game mechanics, you're pretty much uprooting the entire setting.

Then there's the fact that, as other people mentioned, this pretty much boosts combat powers while nerfing the subtle ones. You're more likely to be accepting of a little bit of blood rain in the middle of a firefight than at the subsector governor's ball.

I just went back and read the Perils of the Warp chart, and you know what? Most of them really aren't as horrible as my first impression made them. Anything between 91-00 is an instant party killer and would probably require a burned Fate Point, but lower than that and most people will survive the effects, if rather battered and maybe broken afterwords. No to mention, most of the effects strike everyone in a radius, which means the enemy as well, so it keeps the playing field fairly level in the midst of a fight.

So I retract my previous objections - shite happens. I'd still likely intervene on the Demonhost result, but unless people are just having horrible luck I think the rest of the chart is bad, but manageable.

First you have to get a 76+ on the phenomenon table, and then the 91+ so that means you have a .25% chance of a super suck roll... Not sure why people seem to think that the phenomena rules are so bad.

I mean 2.5% chance of super suck when you get a phenomena roll.

Netherek said:

The issue isn't that it happens rarely, it is that it happens at all. There should be no result ONE character can accidentally do that will wipe out the entire party ... the other players are then being punished because one of the PCs wanted to play a Psyker - it is inappropriate.

Jack of Tears said:

I agree wholeheartedly (though this is an amazing bit of thread necromancy).

Sounds like it's time to discuss demolitions then. Get a huge bomb, fail miserably on your demolitions test and everyone dies. Is it then the case that the rest of the players are getting punished because one player wanted to play a sapper? Or is it rather the case that one player in a group tried to do something dangerous that didn't pan out?

Also, exactly what results are you counting as TPK? Daemonhost? I Guess it could happen, but it's not like Its impossible to fight them or run away from them, the psyker messed up so now there's [added difficulty X] to deal with. Daemonhost =/= automatic TPK.

Graspar said:

I think you're on the right path with this idea. A Psyker isn't the only one with a "do or die" situation. A Tech-Priest closing a bulkhead venting into space, a smooth talker trying to Blather his way out of a room full of bad guys, your sapper example; there's potentially something deadly for every career. Even something like a character wielding a Plasma Pistol/Gun/Cannon can have an Overheat which (with a similar series of unlucky rolls as the Psychic Phenomenon) can result in a catastrophic explosion.

Everyone can spend a Fate Point (even the Psyker) to reroll skill/activation test. Everyone can burn a Fate Point to avoid death - even the Psyker who had a critical power activation failure.

I don't think Psychic Phenomena are that terrible. As stated before, there's like a 2.5% chance of death, and everything else that happens is usually bizarre but not deadly. It also represents the fickle nature of the Warp well.

Except that for the psykers, it's a chance of death every single time they use their powers in any way for any reason whatsoever. The other examples are all extreme, dramatic and often climactic situtations. The psyker is the only character who can achieve a total party kill by doing something completely trivial.

I quite like that psychic powers are never trivial, always dangerous. What powers are trivial in your reckoning?

Anyway, all of the powers I can imagine anyone calling trivial are minor. With invocation you're almost guaranteed to succeed with one power die so that's what, 0.25% chance for the really bad things on the perils table. Add favoured by the warp and it's reduced to once every 1600 "trivial" manifestations, or one in 0.0625%.

I honestly fail to see how that's a problem. Simply don't use psyker powers when it's trivial. It's not like it's supposed to be safe in 40k.

Jack of Tears said:

Welcome to 40k. There's a reason everyone hates psykers, and it's not because they're jealous.

LuciusT said:

If a situation isn't "extreme, dramatic, and climactic", they probably shouldn't be using a power in the first place. Psykers have a direct line to the realm of all that is evil and unholy in their heads. No matter how trivial the power, that is what they draw upon whenever they tap into the warp. Psychic powers are a double-edged sword, and using them should always be an event that has everyone holding their breath in suspense.

LuciusT said:

Every time a character fires a Plasma weapon, they have a 5% chance of Overheat. Yes, it's in combat but for many Psykers that is where they'll end up using their powers anyway. I admit that combat is a dramatic part of the game, but I can't see it being extreme or (for the most part) climactic.

By the 40k background, every use of a Psychic power is fraught with danger. Try reading "A Thousand Sons", whereby Space Marines are corrupted by the use of the warp and it takes what would amount to an exceedingly powerful Dark Pact by a Primarch no less, to attempt to stop the negative effects. Why would a basic psyker be anywhere near as capable as a Marine who practices daily, for decades/centuries?

Jack of Tears said:

Jack of Tears said:

To start with, that's always been a threat. If you play with fire, you'll eventually get burned. As to what happens when you unleash hell, do your best and fate the rest.

THis situation happens in the first Eisenhorn novel, as a GM you have some lee-way in how you unleash it but every one should be aware of the risk and simply accept it. This isn't Star Wars, it shouldn't be safe, EVER.

And how do you propose to keep that very risk of unwittingly unleashing Hell? As it usually is an accident that Pysker's bring about possession or summoning warp entities? Keep in mind that you have to have a system in place where even low ranking psykers can screw up that badly. So far I think DH did it best, though you might look at WHRPv2 they have a different though similar peril rules.

I'd also like to point out that the 2.5% chance of all hell breaking loose can be further reduced by talents, the use of Fate (burn it). So it's not that bad, If you treat the use of psychic abilities like an unstable nuke that can blow up in your face then you have the right feel of the game and won't be blasting off with powers all the time. Which would be about the appropriate way to play...

I think it is appropriate that psykers are this dangerous, use them with care, and shoot them dead if it goes bad. I seriously just don't understand how upset people get over the perils, (even though the class has several warning labels) and how many complain about the pwer level of the psyker class in general.

Netherek said:

Really? You don't see why people complain about psyker power level? A psyker, psy rating 3 and a 50 willpower can - with Force Barrage - do an absolute minimum of 5d10+25 points of damage to one target. He has - in this case - a 50% chance to hit with this; on average he is going to do 50 dmg total. (unless you require a WP check for every bolt, in which case he'll still hit 2-3 three times for an average of 35-40 total dmg) Considering the Toughness+AP of most individuals is not going to exceed 10 (meaning total damage of 25-30) that is still enough to kill virtually anything in the game in one round. And when he gets higher level and has WP multipliers this becomes beyond ridiculous.

BUT I'm not arguing whether they are over powered or not here.

As for perils - I don't have a problem with all of them, just Demonhost which, considering the book states it attacks the party, is probably a TPK. Don't think so? A Once Bound Demon Host will have a Psy rating of 6, 1d5+2 Psy Powers and All Minor Powers and needn't fear perils so will always roll full dice. His WP is 80-90; Strength of 55-65 with a x3 ST modifier (so +15-18 dmg with natural weapons); and TB of 8-10. With just Force Barrage he'd be doing (with an average roll on his dice, thus +15 points over Threshhold) 11d10+55 dmg or average 110 total. With an 80+WP he is very unlikely to miss and he could easily break that damage up between 3 people and likely kill all three of them at once - and that is just one power. And don't forget it has app 30hp itself. Only the highest ranking groups are going to survive a showdown with this thing.

And, yes, the player can burn a Fate Point, but then you are basically saying "every time 91+ comes up on this chart the pc loses a fate point" ... you had might as well just make that the result and save everyone the heart attack. So, considering people will avoid this every time it comes up, you are essentially leaving a 10% area in that chart which has no meaning. (Save for those instances where there is no Fate to Burn; then again the absurd fight ensues) Why not replace it with something a little less dangerous that the PCs may well be willing to weather and return that 10% spread to the chart?

What's this talk about 2.5%? There's a 2.5% chance that you'll screw up badly if you've already gotten the 10% "screws up at all" result.

needn't fear perils

I beg to differ, daemonhosts take damage for every nine they roll. When I pitted my party against an unbound daemonhost (not due to perils, planned encounter) that's what finished him off. Granted, I may have selected the wrong powers or played him slightly wrong and there was that pesky templar calixis swift attacking with his force sword (this is the incidence that caused me to hate force weapons with a passion) so it's not all power use that caused it's demise. But those three nines on the manifestation that finally killed the templar made the difference between one burnt fate and burnt fate all around.

Oh, and they were nowhere near "the highest ranking group", they probably averaged 5000-6000 xp though individual XP varies quite a lot in our group. They were lucky, I was unlucky and they way I played the daemonhost was suboptimal (but then again, why does every daemonhost have to start with see me not and follow up with force barrage? isn't chaos supposed to be a rather diverse, almost chaotic bunch?).

Point is, they wen't toe to toe against an unbound daemonhost and WON. It's not an automatic TPK.

Graspar said:

Though you admit yourself there were extenuating circumstances here. You are correct, not all Demonhosts should have those two powers to begin with, but Regenerate would have also gone a long ways toward keeping that Host alive - or a number of other powers. The Demonhost shouldn't show up with garbage skills either - unless you want to take the "chaos" thing to its extreme and always randomly generate their abilities. Also, you admit you didn't play the Host nearly as well as you probably should have ... which isn't something that can be figured into the equation in most circumstances. (unless the gm is being nice - in which case he is, himself, admitting the encounter is too powerful and adjusting accordingly)

Since this wasn't a random encounter I'm guessing the party was at least somewhat prepared to fight a big nasty as well - not have it on them while in the midst of another fight, or while completely unprepared and utilizing a psy power for some non combat related occurrence. (not to mention that 6000 xp is 6th level, which is in the highest 2/3rds of your potential skill rankings for DH ... so would be considered "decent level" ... but what about the 5 levels before that?)

Ultimately, you're right, nothing is a guarenteed TPK, because luck does come into account, but all things being equal you're going to see that result (at least up to 5th level) far more often than not. It just seems like unnecessary overkill ...

Though you admit yourself there were extenuating circumstances here. You are correct, not all Demonhosts should have those two powers to begin with, but Regenerate would have also gone a long ways toward keeping that Host alive - or a number of other powers. The Demonhost shouldn't show up with garbage skills either - unless you want to take the "chaos" thing to its extreme and always randomly generate their abilities. Also, you admit you didn't play the Host nearly as well as you probably should have ... which isn't something that can be figured into the equation in most circumstances. (unless the gm is being nice - in which case he is, himself, admitting the encounter is too powerful and adjusting accordingly)

I think the problem was that I had the idea in my mind of a more khornate daemonhost. Something the daemonhost template doesn't do too well. And seeing as how there was a templar calixis, an adepta sororitas (granted, she was probably the lowest ranking one present) and a few others present at the time I didn't exactly have a lot of time to change tactics. 30 WOunds might sound like a lot, but it really isn't.

Since this wasn't a random encounter I'm guessing the party was at least somewhat prepared to fight a big nasty as well - not have it on them while in the midst of another fight, or while completely unprepared and utilizing a psy power for some non combat related occurrence. (not to mention that 6000 xp is 6th level, which is in the highest 2/3rds of your potential skill rankings for DH ... so would be considered "decent level" ... but what about the 5 levels before that? )

Actually, that was what happened since they took too long time in escorting the unstable nascent psyker to facilities with the correct equipment and drugs to contain his emerging powers. They almost had to change pants when I pulled out the already statted out daemonhost from my bag of goodies. It was glorious.

Ultimately, you're right, nothing is a guarenteed TPK, because luck does come into account, but all things being equal you're going to see that result (at least up to 5th level) far more often than not. It just seems like unnecessary overkill ...

Sure, it's a strong possibility. Just not guaranteed. And if all else fails one can always run away screaming. It does say the daemonhost attacks, but who and what it attacks is not specified. I'd be content with general mayhem and destruction if they decide to run away and either turn the matter over to more qualified individuals or return with better gear and some help. Might even make for an interesting sidequest once the daemon has established a cult following, I remember one thread about such an incidence and it seemed really fun.

Jack of Tears said:

Well, that's the tradeoff. Loathed and feared by a galaxy, permenantly hooked up to hell by a door in your head, could bring about the end of all things as we know it if you so much as levitate a glass of water...but ****, can you do some cool things. Ideally, there should be a balance here. If the psyker is using his powers willy nilly, he's gonna get unlucky sooner or later, and a GM can make even the more harmless phenomena act as a beacon for those who would rather burn the witch and ask questions later.

And as to the example you posted...really, think of the Guardsman with the MP lascannon. 5d10+10 damage, 10 pen. Slightly less damage, but no chance of Perils (or even overheat!) and the target might as well be wearing a fig leaf for armor. I'm not saying that it isn't possible to make a psyker very powerful just by juicing up the WP stat, but again, that's what Perils are for.

The 2.5% of all hell breaking loose ala possession, is based on that you first must roll on the phenomena table and if you get a 76+ you roll on the Peril's table.

So 25% of Phenomena are perils, of that 25% you have 10% of which are possession, 10% of 25 is 2.5%. That's how likely on any 9 you roll to be possessed. That doesn't take into account any of the talents that reduce these odds.

For the daemonhost, you could reduce the difficulty of the WP test and not allow the host to act until the following round on the failure.

You could also choose to make it dramatic and have it an extended opposed test with whatever mod you feel appropriate. Hmm... That sounds fun, might actually use that idea myself.

Netherek said:

Definately, stretch it out over a few rounds, milk that tension for all it's worth as the battle rages around. And if there wasn't a battle before, there is now...

Could do a tug of war style mental battle, even. Each round is an opposed WP test between psyker and daemon. If one party loses the test, next round their enemy gets a +10 to their roll. Whoever wins 3 tests in a row wins the duel.

This also gives the teammates time for a moral dilemma: do they wait it out and trust in their comrades mental strength? or do they cry "It's for your own good!" and pull the trigger?