So, I've been working on a build that has done wonders for me on Vassal:

Kath+PTL+HLC+Rebel Captive+Seismic Charge

Howlrunner+Swarm Tactics+SD

Academy Pilot

Academy Pilot

Despite how much I win on Vassal with this build, I lost 3/4 games with it in a live tournament today. I feel I played well. I don't really know what exactly it was that went wrong.

I used Kath to flank. Academies would die first, as per usual, then Howl, then Kath.

First match went amazing for me. 100-0.

Second match loss was against:

Wedge+SD+EH

Dagger+FCS+HLC

Dagger+FCS+HLC

Third loss against:

Han+PTL+Chewbacca+Luke+ShieldUp+MF Title

Wedge+PTL+SD

Fourth loss against:

OGP+APL

Soontir+PTL+RGI Title+ShieldUp+HullUp

Kath+EH

Regardless, it was quite disappointing since I've been doing so well with it on Vassal.

It's made me reconsider flying mixed ships (i.e. Firesprays and TIEs).

Thinking about focusing on some Rebel builds.

Why do you think you lost? Any idea at all?

I see this a lot from people playing competitive games (like Starcraft) where they don't really think about how they lost.

Maybe a better idea, how did you think you were going to beat each of the lists you lost to?

From seeing the lists you lost to, its not obvious to me. Though, they are some really tough builds.

First, remember that any single event is a very low sample size. Going 1 in 4 doesn't mean it's a bad list or that you played poorly; it means your opponents had a good day.

But with that said, Kath+HLC with three TIEs is a list I'd expect to see struggle more often than not. The HLC is a good solution against very high-Agility opponents (like Soontir, or I guess Wedge + PTL + Stealth), but the TIEs won't do you much good. Low-Agility ships (of which there's at least one in each build that beat you) are a soft counter to the HLC, but the swarm doesn't really have enough "mass" to keep the pressure on even when they can hit easily.

Or, to come at the problem for another angle, consider how much you're spending on ships versus how much you're spending on upgrades (including pilot skill). A Bounty Hunter and three Academy Pilots come out to 66 points, which means fully a third of your list is going toward upgrades--and upgrades that, in the right context, are simply switched off. Your PS doesn't help against Soontir, Wedge, or Han; your HLC (as mentioned) doesn't really pay off against low Agility. So you're fighting significantly under-strength against certain kinds of lists... and you ran into three lists that all have the ability to exploit those loopholes.

Vorpal, I don't understand your analysis at all. Can you explain a bit more?

Also, what would be a good list in your opinion?

Vorpal, I don't understand your analysis at all. Can you explain a bit more?

Also, what would be a good list in your opinion?

So a list that's composed of ships with very high Agility or high HP ignores some of the OP's upgrades, and a list with very high PS ignores some different ones. The OP happened to run into three lists which were almost perfectly situated to ignore the PS bid, ignore the HLC, and ignore the TIEs' contribution to offense:

* Wedge/Dagger/Dagger can take out TIEs almost at will, and although Wedge is a likely early casualty, he'll still get 2-3 shots off. I'd gladly trade him for Howlrunner and an Academy, which is about what will happen--and Kath is badly outgunned by the twin Daggers.

* In my opinion Han/Wedge is an outright bad list due to the number of terrible matchups it has, but here it shoots first and wreaks havoc when it does. The OP's list can't repel firepower of that magnitude, and can't kill either ship off quickly enough to win the race.

* OMG/Soontir/Kath is very worried about the OP's HLC, but is basically immune to the TIEs, so it takes her out first (with Soontir exploiting her blind spots to stick around). Then Soontir alone is enough to kill Howlrunner's crew, probably without being damaged.

Vorpal, I don't understand your analysis at all. Can you explain a bit more?

Also, what would be a good list in your opinion?

His point-cost analysis is as follows:

Each ship costs as much as its cheapest pilot. Everything else following that is an upgrade.

For instance, taking Krassis as your pilot gives you a 3 point upgrade, giving you +2 PS and a free re-roll when firing a secondary weapon.

For the sheer amount of hits it takes to kill your fleet, you're looking at the bare-bones cost.

In this case, 12 + 12 + 12 + 33 = 69 (his math was a bit off).

He is suggesting that you go through each of your "Upgrades", and determine whether its effect is cost effective.

Your "Upgrades" are:

Kath Scarlet

5 Points : +4 PS. Gain an EPT slot. Whenever a defender cancels one of your hollow-explosion results, they become stressed.

Howlrunner

6 Points: + 7 PS. Gain an EPT slot. Whenever an ally at Range 1 attacks with their primary weapon, they may re-roll 1 attack die.

Push the Limit

3 Points : Once per round, if Kath would perform an action, she may perform 2, then receive a stress.

Swarm Tactics

2 Points : At the start of each Combat Phase, 1 ally at Range 1 of Howlrunner may attack as though it were PS 8

Rebel Captive

3 Points : The first pilot to attack Kath each round becomes stressed.

Stealth Device

3 Points : Until the point when she actually takes damage, Howlrunner's agility score is increased by 1.

Seismic Charges

2 Points : When you reveal Kath's maneuver, you may discard this card to drop a Seismic Charge. This detonates at the end of activation, dealing 1 damage to each ship in Range 1 of the token.

Heavy Laser Cannon

7 Points : Kath gains a secondary attack out of her primary firing arc, at Range 2-3. She may roll 4 dice at that range, and downgrade her own hollow-explosion results into black-explosion results.

Now, truly, how powerful are these options, and which ones don't necessarily gel in your fleet?

Kath, for instance, loses her Pilot Ability when she's firing her HLC, unless some hollow-explosions come up from her Target Lock/Howlrunner re-rolls

Similarly, Howlrunner is none too happy with only having 3 ships to boost, particularly when one is tempted to ignore her bonus in favor of a Target Lock option of her own.

Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Awesome gotcha.

Care to do analysis on one of my builds?

Jendon st title hlc

Jonus seismic

Scimitar concussion

Scimitar concussion

Allows for alpha store with reroll and focus

Mostly what DraconPyrothingy said (I plead exhaustion on the addition error). It's possible I'm being a little bit overly harsh, and I don't mean to say that the OP has a bad list--but it's a list with a lot of bad matchups, and I think he found three of them in a row on tournament day.

As for what I would have done instead... I've played a lot with Firesprays, and the conclusion I've come to is that they're a really good ship with a really big opportunity cost. Even at the minimum cost, you're almost pushing out three TIE Fighters (or two Intreceptors); with a setup like the OP's Kath, it's four TIEs. So if you're running one or more Firesprays, you have to be sure that in many or most matchups, you're doing more damage than the number of TIEs you're displacing from your build.

And basically, the way to do that is (as with most ships) to set aside the draw of the sexy high-PS pilots and go with something inexpensive but straightforward. Here I think that's a Bounty Hunter with a Rebel Captive: the Hunter is a good balance between offense and defense without breaking the bank; PS3 means you shoot first against pesky Rookies and Blues, and you can block Daggers and named pilots of any stripe; and the Rebel Captive makes for a fun finisher.

That leaves 64 points. That's a LOT of list design space, and my day started at 5am in an earlier time zone... so I'll get back to this topic tomorrow, if family stuff over the holiday weekend permits. (c:

Mostly what DraconPyrothingy said (I plead exhaustion on the addition error). It's possible I'm being a little bit overly harsh, and I don't mean to say that the OP has a bad list--but it's a list with a lot of bad matchups, and I think he found three of them in a row on tournament day.

As for what I would have done instead... I've played a lot with Firesprays, and the conclusion I've come to is that they're a really good ship with a really big opportunity cost. Even at the minimum cost, you're almost pushing out three TIE Fighters (or two Intreceptors); with a setup like the OP's Kath, it's four TIEs. So if you're running one or more Firesprays, you have to be sure that in many or most matchups, you're doing more damage than the number of TIEs you're displacing from your build.

And basically, the way to do that is (as with most ships) to set aside the draw of the sexy high-PS pilots and go with something inexpensive but straightforward. Here I think that's a Bounty Hunter with a Rebel Captive: the Hunter is a good balance between offense and defense without breaking the bank; PS3 means you shoot first against pesky Rookies and Blues, and you can block Daggers and named pilots of any stripe; and the Rebel Captive makes for a fun finisher.

That leaves 64 points. That's a LOT of list design space, and my day started at 5am in an earlier time zone... so I'll get back to this topic tomorrow, if family stuff over the holiday weekend permits. (c:

Even a Bounty Hunter with either Gunner or Recon Specialist is extremely effective. The PS3 can also be pretty handy in the current meta, given the number of low PS generic ships floating around.

Awesome gotcha.

Care to do analysis on one of my builds?

Jendon st title hlc

Jonus seismic

Scimitar concussion

Scimitar concussion

Allows for alpha store with reroll and focus

I see this list, and you're right: it does allow for an alpha-strike with re-roll and focus. Pretty nifty.

Of that alpha-strike, one of them gets to stick around.

Bad sides:

There are a LOT of points devoted to that idea, and a very long projection of which ship you intend to strike. If I saw your fleeting coming at me, and saw Jendon pass target locks out that early, it gives me plenty of time to break formation and completely stunt your offense.

A Shuttle without an Engine Upgrade becomes very ignorable. It is the least maneuverable ship in the game, and only has 1 agility die. I can kill it at any time I wish, simply by getting behind it.

Moreover, staying away from its HLC is also fairly easy, and that HLC is all of your damage past that alpha-strike.

Bombers are fairly good jousters, despite their relatively low damage. They take a lot more hits than their opponents do, so it's okay.

Other than the HLC, Jonus doesn't have a pilot ability after the alpha-strike. Considering you're not using an EPT either, for most of the game he'll simply be a Lvl 6 Scimitar.

Awesome gotcha.

Care to do analysis on one of my builds?

Jendon st title hlc

Jonus seismic

Scimitar concussion

Scimitar concussion

Allows for alpha store with reroll and focus

I see this list, and you're right: it does allow for an alpha-strike with re-roll and focus. Pretty nifty.

Of that alpha-strike, one of them gets to stick around.

Bad sides:

There are a LOT of points devoted to that idea, and a very long projection of which ship you intend to strike. If I saw your fleeting coming at me, and saw Jendon pass target locks out that early, it gives me plenty of time to break formation and completely stunt your offense.

A Shuttle without an Engine Upgrade becomes very ignorable. It is the least maneuverable ship in the game, and only has 1 agility die. I can kill it at any time I wish, simply by getting behind it.

Moreover, staying away from its HLC is also fairly easy, and that HLC is all of your damage past that alpha-strike.

Bombers are fairly good jousters, despite their relatively low damage. They take a lot more hits than their opponents do, so it's okay.

Other than the HLC, Jonus doesn't have a pilot ability after the alpha-strike. Considering you're not using an EPT either, for most of the game he'll simply be a Lvl 6 Scimitar.

Replace Jendon with Vader + Squad Leader or Swarm Tactics. You get a semi-support craft that can share either an action (very handy for bombers with ordnance) or PS9, can mount missiles and bask in Jonus' ability, and is much more effective in the late game than a shuttle.

So, I've been working on a build that has done wonders for me on Vassal:

Kath+PTL+HLC+Rebel Captive+Seismic Charge

Howlrunner+Swarm Tactics+SD

Academy Pilot

Academy Pilot

Despite how much I win on Vassal with this build, I lost 3/4 games with it in a live tournament today. I feel I played well. I don't really know what exactly it was that went wrong.

I used Kath to flank. Academies would die first, as per usual, then Howl, then Kath.

First match went amazing for me. 100-0.

Second match loss was against:

Wedge+SD+EH

Dagger+FCS+HLC

Dagger+FCS+HLC

Third loss against:

Han+PTL+Chewbacca+Luke+ShieldUp+MF Title

Wedge+PTL+SD

Fourth loss against:

OGP+APL

Soontir+PTL+RGI Title+ShieldUp+HullUp

Kath+EH

Regardless, it was quite disappointing since I've been doing so well with it on Vassal.

It's made me reconsider flying mixed ships (i.e. Firesprays and TIEs).

Thinking about focusing on some Rebel builds.

I think this build will be a little more successful and still be in the spirit of what you were originally aiming for. It gets you the extra gun you need while trimming down some of the fat. Obviously continue to tune as you see fit.

Krassis + HLC + Rebel Captive

Howlrunner

Academy Pilot

Academy Pilot

Academy Pilot

If you're winning most of the time on vassal, just chalk up today to a bad day or bad luck. Or possibly not the best matchups as well. Vassal can be tough to win on, sometimes more-so than tourneys, so if you're doing good with a squad on there you must be doing something right.

I do think looking at the 3 losses, that 2 of the 3 are definitely winnable for your squad. The only one that would be tough most games would be the wedge and 2 hlc daggers with fcs. I know from experience that multiple bwings with fcs and hlc are just BRUTAL against large ships like firesprays.