Hi guys,

I have a doubt:

Dragonstone Port is in play, so players may take actions after plot cards are chosen as part of the plot phase, but before they are revealed.

I have Bran Stark in play. I use his ability ( Plot : Kneel Bran Stark to choose and reveal a new plot card. ) once I've chosen Valar Morghulis but before I reveal it. So I reveal a new plot card.

At this point, what has happened with Valar Morghulis ? In which pile is it? Nobody died, right?

And another one:

Assuming the same scenario and that Valar Morghulis is the 7th plot card, what would happen?

From the rules:

Plot cards are kept in three states: in the plot deck, revealed, and used. When you reveal a plot card during the plot phase, it moves from your plot deck to a revealed state. When you reveal a new plot card, place it on top of your previously revealed plot card. (All plot cards under your currently revealed plot card are considered your “used” plots.) If this was the last card in your plot deck, return all your previously played plots (except the one just revealed) to your plot deck after your revealed plot has taken effect.

First scenario: I think Valar Morghulis wouldn't move from the plot deck, 'cause it wouldn't be revealed. Therefore, I wouldn't be able to put it in my used plot pile.

Second scenario: I think Valar Morghulis wouldn't move from the plot deck, 'cause it wouldn't be revealed. Therefore, I would be forced to choose it again, since it's my only plot card left.

What do you think?

eloooooooi said:

I think you are ignoring a subtlety of Dragonstone Port. It essentially creates a fourth plot state - chosen for framework reveal, but not yet revealed. In both of your scenarios, Valar is in this new "in-between" state when you trigger Bran. So, taking that into account:

1) You choose Valar as the plot you will reveal this round. Then, thanks to Dragonstone Port, players have the opportunity to trigger "Plot" actions. You choose to trigger Bran, so you go into your plot deck and choose a plot card to reveal with Bran's effect. At this point, Valar is not really in your plot deck - it is in the "limbo" state between being chosen and revealed that is created (in addition to the usual 3 plot states) by Dragonstone Port. So you cannot reveal Valar with Bran. But whatever you do choose will "jump ahead" of Valar and is revealed before Valar is revealed (and kills everything). You resolve the plot as appropriate when Bran's effect resolves. Then, when you continue on because no one has any more Plot actions to take, all players reveal the "chosen-not-revealed" plot card they have in that 4th "limbo" state and things go one from there.

2) If Valar is your 7th plot in this Bran/Port scenario, then your Plot deck is empty when you use Bran. Since you have to reveal a plot from what is essentially an empty deck, you recycle the plot deck (except for Valar, which remains in it's "limbo" state). Then, when you are ready to move on, Valar is the plot you reveal.

So what do you think of that idea? Dragonstone Port is specifically contradicting the rules on plot states by letting you take actions between the 2 steps of revealing a plot that normally cannot be separated. As such, it creates a 4th plot state. The chosen plot is held "outside" of the plot deck, more or less "in stasis" while any plot actions are triggered and resolved. Makes those scenarios a lot simpler, I think.

I don't really think there's some kind of "limbo". The rules say that a plot card leaves the plot deck when it is revealed, not when it is chosen.

Anyway, now that I read it again, I think I got it. First scenario: I choose Valar, I choose and reveal a new plot card, I reveal Valar. Second scenario: I choose Valar, I try to choose and reveal a new plot card but I can't (or maybe I have to choose Valar again), I reveal Valar. Chosing and revealing a new plot card before Valar is revealed doesn't mean I have to skip it, I just reveal it later.

Anyway, I'm not 100% convinced and I've sent an e-mail to Nate. I'll post his answer.

Thank you very much (as always)!

eloooooooi said:

Cards trump rules. Dragonstone Port allows you to interrupt something that normally cannot be interrupted. In all of your scenarios, you have chosen Valar to be revealed for the normal framework plot reveal. Then you trigger Bran. Whether it leaves the plot deck or not, Valar is not available to be chosen and revealed with Bran because it has already been chosen to be revealed for as the regular plot.

Look at it this way, if you choose Valar to be revealed for normal plot reveal (and now you're done choosing), then use Bran to reveal Valar it "early" thanks to Dragonstone Port, what do you reveal for normal plots? The choosing is already done - and your plot is gone. Why would you be allowed to "go backwards" and choose a second plot?

Whether it leaves the plot deck or not, the plot you have chosen to reveal is not a legal choice for Bran's ability in that extra "Plot Actions" window created by Dragonstone Port.

I didn't want to reveal Valar twice. I wanted to choose Valar, then choose and reveal a new plot card (not Valar). Your explanation seems quite logical to me

The thing is, do I have to reveal Valar after Bran's ability is resolved?

Nate's answer to the first and second scenario:

Any plot card that does not get revealed, or moved to the used pile, remains in the unused pile. (It was chosen, but it never quite reached "used" status, so it remains unused.) So in your first scenario, Valar would be returned to your unused pile.

In the second scenario, there wouldn't be any other options in your unused pile when you used Bran. It would be kind of liking playing Filthy Accusations with no characters in play, the ability would simply fizzle out.

I was wrong in the second scenario: when a plot card has been chosen (and hasn't been revealed yet) it cannot be chosen again.

eloooooooi said:

I got that you were ultimately trying to figure out if Bran "undid" your choice of Valar in the Dragonstone Port scenario. I was just trying to say that no, I didn't think it did and yes, you'd have to reveal Valar after Bran's ability resolved. Bran's ability would just let you reveal a different plot between choosing Valar and revealing it.

Nate's answers to your scenarios seem contradictory to me.

- In the first, he says that Valar would be "returned" to your plot deck. Doesn't that imply that the choice of Valar before triggering Bran is undone and that Valar is now part of the plot deck with no other conditions placed upon it? It could be revealed by Bran's ability or ignored totally?

- In the second, he says that Bran's ability would fizzle out because you have no "other" options. Doesn't this imply that Bran cannot reveal Valar (which has already been chosen)?

The second answer, when applied to the first scenario, says that even though Valar is still part of the plot deck when Bran is triggered, Valar cannot be revealed by Bran and will, in fact, be revealed after Bran's ability resolves (the answer we came up with before).

But applying the first answer to the second, Valar is "returned" to the plot deck (as opposed to being part of the plot deck, just not available to Bran and slated to be revealed after his effect resolves) and becomes the only choice for the resolution of Bran's ability. Bran would reveal Valar - with no guidelines for what happens after his ability is resolved.

How are you reading this? That in both scenarios, Valar (which is not available to Bran one way or another) is revealed after Bran resolves - whether he fizzes or not. Or that when you have other plots in the plot deck, Bran could change the choice of Valar?

Well, I simply assumed that the word "returned" is unfortunate. I think Nate meant that Valar would never leave the unused pile (as the rules say).

So in the first scenario:

1. Valar Morghulis is chosen

2. Bran's ability is triggered

3. A new plot card is chosen and revealed

4. Valar Morghulis is revealed

And in the second scenario:

1. Valar Morghulis is chosen

2. Bran's ability is triggered

3. There are no plot cards available to be chosen, so Bran's ability fizzle's out

4. Valar Morghulis is revealed

In both cases, we have the ruling that doesn't allow the same plot card to be chosen twice (while it's in the unused pile). You were right about the "limbo" ruling hehe.

eloooooooi said:

Ah. An unfortunate choice of words I can buy. "Returned" creates some questions, but if we're taking it as a poor word choice within the larger context of the answers, that makes sense.

The recycling of the used pile into the plot deck got me on the second scenario. There was a time when the rule of thumb was that the plot deck was recycled when a player was called upon to reveal a plot from an empty plot deck. I forgot that now, the rule is that the plot deck is recycled after a your plot resolves and there are 6 plots in the used pile.

The idea that a plot card cannot be chosen twice is consistent with other rules and rulings. For example, in a 2-claim military challenge, you cannot choose one character to die twice.

Then it makes sense

Thanks ktom for sharing your time with me. As always your help is much appreciated.

And thanks Nate for being so nice.

This question was raised again about Margaery Tyrell on French forum.

I understand Nate ruling, but not your conclusion that a plot cannot be chosen twice (although Ktom comparison with claim effect is good).

Assuming a plot cannot be chosen twice, I would say there is no legal target (word "choose") so Bran cannot even kneel to trigger its ability. Is that right?

However, if as Nate said Bran's ability can be used but fizzle out, it means it is possible to choose twice the same plot but that anyway it would only be revealed once because it is cannot be "revealed successfully" twice. But I would say that the normal game effect of plot revealing fizzle out, not Bran effect.

And as a conclusion is may deserve some clarification

Bolzano said:

The idea that once something is chosen as a target, it cannot be chosen as a target again until the first effect resolves, is pretty common in the game. So common, you probably do it without thinking in most cases. High claim military challenges are the most obvious example, because if you could choose the same character more than once, what would be the point? But consider Drunken Allegations: "When revealed, choose an opponent. Then, you and that opponent must each choose and kneel a standing character." Technically, the person revealing the plot chooses a character, then the chosen opponent chooses a character, then all characters kneel together, right? So why can't the chosen opponent choose the same character that the person revealing the plot chose? It isn't knelt yet when he's choosing his target, so why is it an illegal target?

These sort of examples result in the understanding - effectively codified by the "high claim military challenge" rule - that once chosen for an effect, that card cannot be chosen for that or any other effect until that first effect resolves.

Bolzano said:

It's kind of like asking "If I use Lost Oasis to give stealth to The Red Viper, can Arya steal it even though the keyword isn't printed on the card?" It's easy to focus on the primary issue and say "yes, because Arya can steal gained keywords" and forget that the real answer for the entire situation is "no, because TRV is immune to character abilities."

Back with a tricky situation : Dragonstone Port + Varys (CS) + Bran Stark. I guess we can think about it before having it clarified by FFG.

VARYS Text:
Lord, Ally Stealth. Plot: If you have more than one opponent,kneel Varys to choose an opponent. Until the end of the round,switch plot decks and used plot piles with that opponent.

During the additional action window created by Dragonstone Port, I use Varys to switch Plot deck and used pile with an opponent, after I have chosen my own plot. Then several situation may happen :

#1 : Nobody use Bran Stark. I reveal the plot I have chosen and so do my opponent.

1.1 : My revealed plot card is the one I have chosen. So I have a revealed plot card I own and a plot deck I do not own - I think there is no particular rule to cover this situation so I just reveal for myself my chosen plot.

1.2 : On the next Round after situation 1.1 has happened, I use Varys again to switch plot deck and used pile with the same opponent. So he have mine and I have his again. We normally choose and reveal a new plot. What happen to our previously revealed plot? Is it placed in my plot used pile or in my opponent used pile (which I own?). I think from the rules it should be placed in the used pile I control (and that my opponent owns).

From the FAQ :

"Unless prevented by card effects, a player's revealed plot card moves to his or her used pile immediately whenever a new plot card is revealed from that player's plot deck."

During this plot phase my used pile is owned by my opponent.

One may argue that also from FAQ §3.29 :

"When a card leaves play for any reason, it always returns to its owner's discard pile, dead pile, hand, deck, or shadows area (depending on the specific circumstances)."

And so my previously revealed plot card (that I own) should go to the plot deck I own, not the one I control. However, it seems to me this §3.29 is not applicable to plots because they are specifically excluded from the "In play" area.

From the Rule Book :

"All non-plot cards in the game are considered “in play”"

Conclusion of #1.2 is that Varys ability allows players to mix their plot decks/used pile. This could lead to several problems since players may have different card sleeves so after plot deck rotates it will be possible to know which plot is chosen. Which by the way would make Dragonstone port more powerfull.

#2 I control a copy of Bran Stark.

I trigger Dragonstone Port and each player chooses his plot. Then :

2.1 I did not trigger Varys and I trigger Bran Stark. From the discussion in this thread I have to reveal a different plot from the one I chose. If I can't (because there is no eligible target), Bran cannot be triggered..

2.2 I trigger Varys to switch plot deck with an opponent. Then I use Bran Stark to reveal an eligible plot my plot deck (that he owns).

Firstly, there is a problem because the plot my opponent has already chosen is not eligible, but I am not supposed to know which one it is yet. So is my opponent supposed to announce to everybody which plot he has just chosen? In which case he is screwed in different ways, including that I will not have to guess which plot he'll reveal and get 1 power for sure with my Dragonstone Port. To resolves this situation I would have a judge inform me in case by chance with Bran ability I chose an illegal plot (one already chosen by an opponent).

Secondly, the additional plot I reveal thanks to Bran will likely make my previously revealed plot mix up with my opponent's plots in my used pile (as per #1). Leading to additional possibilities to mix plot decks.

Bolzano said:

There are two ways to look at this. The first is, as you have said, Varys essentially allows you to capture 2 of your opponent's plot cards into your plot deck (the one revealed - not exchanged - when Varys is triggered, and the one you reveal during the round after you have triggered Varys).

The second way to look at it is with the almost universally ignored (because it makes no sense) rule that the revealed plot is moved to the used pile at the end of the round. If you follow this, plots will not be mixed between plot decks. But, as I have said, this rule is pretty well ignored because the "no revealed plot card from the end of the Taxation phase to the time plots are revealed in the next plot phase" means things like Host of the Bear being discarded at the end of the round because your total initiative will drop when you have no revealed plot card.

Most people that I know play Varys (when they do; this is not the version people normally choose) as mixing plot decks.

NOTE: On the Dragonstone Port thing - Nate has clearly ruled that the plot card chosen, but not yet revealed, during the extra Dragonstone Port window, remains part of the plot deck. That means using Varys in that window will take the chosen plots away from the affected players, invalidating their original plot choices and allowing them to choose new plots to reveal from their "new" plot deck. The status of "I will reveal this plot" should not follow the card when the player loses control of it.

Bolzano said:

Bolzano said:

ktom said:

Maybe it has moved into a new out-of-play area, and maybe it has just stayed inside the same one - this area is not so clearly defined.

Changing control does not necessarily wears off effects. For instance Reek does not break any lasting effect targetting him when his ability to switch control is triggered.

Also, even if we assume, as you say, that the choose is undone, I don't see why there should be a new opportunity to choose a plot - it does not come again in the game timing. The next step as far as the plots are concerned is revealing. If they are not chosen, the revealing is not successfull.

Bolzano said:

Your plot deck is certainly the same out-of-play area as before, but all the cards in it have change when Varys is used. The cards in that area were not in that same area before Varys' effect. If they were, you could have chosen them in the first place. So I'm not seeing the argument that your plot deck and your opponent's plot deck are somehow the same out-of-play area such that cards moving from one to the other have not changed out-of-play states.

Bolzano said:

Bolzano said:

The opposite argument is that when you hit the instruction to "reveal" a plot card without having one chosen, you still get to select which plot card is revealed from your used pile. Otherwise, how do effects that tell you to reveal new plot cards without saying " choose and reveal" work (ie, Bungled Orders, Lords of the Narrow Sea, and the Rookeries)? With the choice negated by Varys, the instruction to "reveal" carries an inherent instruction to select the plot that is revealed.

Bolzano said:

I still had a doubt about the Shadows area being separate or not for each player.

But that's clear enough from the Shadow Rules :

"Each player has the option of bringing one card out of his or
her Shadows area each phase."

And so I agree with your whole point - thanks for taking the time to think about it. Now I can start deckbuilding