Sorry, not aimed at you, MM.

Scooter seemed to be getting kind of angsty.

I'm wondering if full on force careers will be left to a splat book since as this series is based around the Original Trilogy the only Force Career we'd probably need notes on would be the Inquisitor as other than the Emperor and Darth Vader there won't be that kind of overpowered Force User Career available unless they covered the one master and an apprentice even with the shenanigans of Force Unleashed were ever to become Canon...

So maybe a focus on the various Force Traditions and maybe a way players can have characters from that Tradition but leave the multi-class bit as in this era unless you're Sith orientated your character will be hunted down and slain if they wasn't trying to be careful and as noted going the full Force User does not make you a ninja regardless of whether you're trying to pull that one over an otherwise willing gm.

Still this is an interesting thread, any idea when the first details will be released regarding the impending Force & Destiny Beta?

Gencon is middle of August. They've now got AoR officially launched. I would think there should be some F&D news some time this month, maybe a couple-ish weeks I would imagine. Unless they are just going to wait till Gencon, but I would suspect they will want to say something prior.

Both EotE and AoR's betas had an official announcement a few weeks before GenCon 2012/13. We're likely only going to get vague information and the name of FaD's Duty/Obligation and slightly harder information on the setting if AoR's is any indication.

Here's the pages of the announcements:

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=3496

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=4291

No problem, Maelora. Thought I'd say something if I was contributing.

I'm wondering if full on force careers will be left to a splat book since as this series is based around the Original Trilogy the only Force Career we'd probably need notes on would be the Inquisitor as other than the Emperor and Darth Vader there won't be that kind of overpowered Force User Career available unless they covered the one master and an apprentice even with the shenanigans of Force Unleashed were ever to become Canon...

Every time I see this I chuckle. FFG are not going to constrain themselves and players to such limitations as "there were only such and such Force-users in this timeframe". We are creating our own stories and we are going to need the ability to create our own Force-users like Kanan or have characters evolve into an Obi-Wan. Our games are not constrained by "canon". Our players are the ones filling the roles as the heroes and we need the ability to play those characters to the fullest ability. Thus we need the ability to create characters that have been trained in Force use as their career and can evolve forward beyond the limitations of a couple of unispecs. Careers, specs, skills, talents, "Commitment" mechanic and Force powers will all be expanded on to give us more choice for playing Force-users.

I'm wondering if full on force careers will be left to a splat book since as this series is based around the Original Trilogy the only Force Career we'd probably need notes on would be the Inquisitor as other than the Emperor and Darth Vader there won't be that kind of overpowered Force User Career available unless they covered the one master and an apprentice even with the shenanigans of Force Unleashed were ever to become Canon...

So maybe a focus on the various Force Traditions and maybe a way players can have characters from that Tradition but leave the multi-class bit as in this era unless you're Sith orientated your character will be hunted down and slain if they wasn't trying to be careful and as noted going the full Force User does not make you a ninja regardless of whether you're trying to pull that one over an otherwise willing gm.

Still this is an interesting thread, any idea when the first details will be released regarding the impending Force & Destiny Beta?

Dude! Punctuation, please. I like what I'm reading but I feel the need to inhale deeply after I read the paragraphs

I agree with mouthy here...the "Failed Jedi," "Force Initiate," "Order 66 Escapee," "Ex-Padawan," "Jedi-in-hiding," and other such ideas are old tropes in Star Wars roleplaying. FFG has plenty of examples to mine for ideas, and if their MO holds true, we'll see these kinds of things in some way in FaD.

Also, the "Quixotic Jedi." I would be so happy if that guy was in the Beta

How does one buy into the F&D beta?

They will sell it. Probably be available online once they intro it at Gencon, so middle-ish of August, give or take.

They will sell it. Probably be available online once they intro it at Gencon, so middle-ish of August, give or take.

Sadly they took a long time to get release AoR beta for the general public, I hope it doesn't take as long for the F&D beta.

They will sell it. Probably be available online once they intro it at Gencon, so middle-ish of August, give or take.

Sadly they took a long time to get release AoR beta for the general public, I hope it doesn't take as long for the F&D beta.

Don't worry, I'm sure those that get their hands on it early will tease the hell out of it. Some may even share useful information if we're lucky.

ScotterAB,

First off, relax man.

As for mouthymerc's point and your refuting of it, he does have a valid point. Right now, any character that wants to play a Force user has to pay XP out of their starting budget to get that ability, with their starting career and specialization having no actual role in their being a Force user. For Force user PCs made using EotE & AoR, they have to give up the equivalent of raising a Characteristic to purchase the appropriate Force-sensitive specialization and a Force power to get any usage out of that Force Rating. He never once said "you can't play a Force user in this system," but instead that doing so incurs an extra cost to the character, a cost that no other character archetype has to pay. It'd be akin to forcing a PC that wanted to play a droid or a Wookiee to shell out additional XP from their starting budget just to play a droid or a Wookiee, with nothing additional gained than they're a droid or Wookiee PC.

If a PC wants to be a bounty hunter, they just take the Bounty Hunter career and pick a spec. Same if they want to be a hotshot pilot, either take Ace/Pilot or Smuggler/Pilot as your starting career/specialization combo and they're off to the races. If you want to play a social-savvy character, then take Colonist or Diplomat as your starting career and choose a suitable specialization.

But if a PC wants to be a Force user, they have to pick a career and specialization that has nothing to do with being a Force user, and then pay XP out of their starting budget to get that ability. They also have to get GM approval before doing so, since both Exile and Emergent are options that are not included as a default character choice, but that point seems to be glossed over or simply forgotten in a lot of discussions.

FFG has said back when EotE was released that Force and Destiny was going to focus on the Force (much as EotE focuses on the Fringe and AoR focuses on the Galactic Civil War), which entails the option of having Force user PCs as a default character choice, as a GM running a Force and Destiny game has by default given consent for the player to be a Force user. As Mouthymerc said in a prior post, FFG isn't going to be constrained by the movies in terms of what types of characters are permissible as PCs, so that means having careers and specializations where being a Force user is the primary focus by default is to be expected, just as AoR's careers and specializations have a military focus as the default, or EotE careers and specializations have a focus of "on the fringes of society" as the general default.

But hey, if there are folks that really don't like the idea of Force and Destiny quite possibly introducing careers that allow a PC to be a Force-user as the default, nobody's twisting their arm to buy the book. They've got two Star Wars RPG product lines to pick from where Force users are secondary and purely optional element of the game.

If a PC wants to be a bounty hunter, they just take the Bounty Hunter career and pick a spec. Same if they want to be a hotshot pilot, either take Ace/Pilot or Smuggler/Pilot as your starting career/specialization combo and they're off to the races. If you want to play a social-savvy character, then take Colonist or Diplomat as your starting career and choose a suitable specialization.

But if a PC wants to be a Force user, they have to pick a career and specialization that has nothing to do with being a Force user, and then pay XP out of their starting budget to get that ability. They also have to get GM approval before doing so, since both Exile and Emergent are options that are not included as a default character choice, but that point seems to be glossed over or simply forgotten in a lot of discussions.

Exactly.

The thing is, you can't be a Force User in either of the existing games. You can only be a Bounty Hunter (or whatever) that is a force user (lowercase). That character will always be their career first, and use the Force second.

The hope (and assumption) is that F&D allows making a character whose primary identity is in using the Force.

I believe that the only real question is how specific those identities will be.

Both EotE and AoR's betas had an official announcement a few weeks before GenCon 2012/13.

Not quite. EotE was the "big surprise" for GenCon 2012, and the beat and announcement on the website didn't occur until the second day of GenCon (after the seminar at GenCon which announced it and gave everyone there a copy of the Beta).

AoR was indeed announced prior to GenCon 2013 though, and I suspect that F&D will fall into the same category and we should get some sort of prior announcement...

When F&D comes out, I hope to see the exact same thing we have seen thus far, so that people will stop complaining about how they haven't been able to make Jedi or other Force Users. Seriously. I'm getting so tired of hearing this. You can make Force Users. You can make Force Users where the Force is the central characteristic to the character. You can make Force Users where their whole thing is the Force. This can already be done. This is literally no different than making a bounty hunter or a hotshot pilot. Your character is defined by the central concept you've created, not the numbers on your character sheet or the loaded terms you invest too heavily into.

Let me draw this comparison. In EoE, you are supposed to be able to make bounty hunters, smugglers, and other such. But have you looked at any starting character that is made? Very little actually separates them, mechanically, from one another. Very few are actually able to do "their thing" right out of the gate. And there are specializations that can't even do their thing off the hop. Take the gadgeteer as an example. There is nothing gadgety about his bounty hunter spec. They don't have the funds or special abilities to be modifying their gear right away to make them more gadgety. They don't have any abilities to make them any better with any gear than any other character. At the start of the game, they are just a different build of bounty hunter. It is only later that they become interesting and grow into their own. This is true with many, many specializations. You aren't going to be totally awesome at the start, and you will have to invest a ton of XP if you want to try to be. This is no different from taking a Force specialization at the start.

The sooner people realize that they already have what they need, they better off we are going to be. I will resound my earlier question that not one person took the time to answer. If the book drops and there is are no Force Using careers, no hand holding, and not other wish fulfillments that people are asking for, what's going to happen? If this going to ruin the game for you? Are you going to continue to think that you can't use the Force? Or are you going to realize that not every single thing that defines a character needs to be about the Force. Yes, there are a variety of talents in each of the Exile and Emergent trees. And yes, they aren't Force powers. But they are things that either make them better at using the Force or make them more survivable and better characters. If there are no Force Using careers to hold your hand, is that going to be enough for you to realize that you could do it all along?

Yes, F&D is going to have further details about the Force. I look forward, in further releases, to Signature Abilities and new powers. I look forward to seeing ever ability be recreatable through some mechanic or another. I'm looking forward to clearer guidance on how to deal with Jedi, lightsabers, and those things combat. But I'm a realist, and I don't see FFG changing how the game plays and invalidating two entire lines worth of material just because some old d20 or video game players (because that is truly where this is coming from) want to play Jedi and are being noisy about it.

So go on being immature and calling me angsty or whatever. Like I said, I'm a realist. I'm basing my opinions on observations of what FFG is actually doing and what is plausible, not fantastic wishing I'm dreaming up. I'm making real observations based on evidence and study, not internet attacks because someone doesn't agree with someone else.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=3496

Since FFG said the players will be the last Force users in the galaxy in their basic description, my money is there will be Force using careers in F&D.

Look, Scooter, there is going to be Force-using careers in F&D whether you like it or not. FFG haven't teased them for 3 games for no reason. If you assume F&D is going to be full of non-Force-using careers and nothing else, then... you're wrong.

We don't know what form that will take. We don't know if they will be generic, or have 'Jedi' in the titles. We don't know if there will be 'lightsaber forms' or if that stuff will just be fluff. We don't know if the KotOR classes like Guardian and Consular will make it or not. We don't know if F&D will have some non-Force-sensitive careers.

But there is no way - ABSOLUTELY NO WAY - F&D won't have at least one career that allows you to start off as Force-sensitive without buying a universal specialisation.

Certainly sounds like it.

And here I was thinking they would make Force Rating into a characteristic and treating Force Powers like skills for narrative dice checks.

Well I still don't get how the force rules work nor understand how Duty works but that's why I'm posting here, where better to find out?

So what core skills would a Force Career use?

I am assuming like the other core books we're looking at 6 careers with 3 specialities for each?

The sooner people realize that they already have what they need, they better off we are going to be. I will resound my earlier question that not one person took the time to answer. If the book drops and there is are no Force Using careers, no hand holding, and not other wish fulfillments that people are asking for, what's going to happen? If this going to ruin the game for you? Are you going to continue to think that you can't use the Force? Or are you going to realize that not every single thing that defines a character needs to be about the Force. Yes, there are a variety of talents in each of the Exile and Emergent trees. And yes, they aren't Force powers. But they are things that either make them better at using the Force or make them more survivable and better characters. If there are no Force Using careers to hold your hand, is that going to be enough for you to realize that you could do it all along?

What is the point of even putting out a new book if the entire point of it is just to restate what we already have? We can make Force characters already, yes, but why the opposition for something with a focus on that, and new ways to accomplish this?

Imagine for a second that the lines were reversed, and F&D came out first, but with a short five page chapter on the Rebellion, complete with the universal Recruit spec and the Knowledge Warfare skill. Would you make claims that AoR doesn't need military careers because, 'We can already play a solider, it's all about character concept, not stats'?

Universal specializations only exist as a cheap way to allow characters to access certain abilities, 2 of them allow force use and the third combat skills, but the recruit isn't nearly the combatant a soldier or hired gun is so it stands to reason exile and emergent won't be nearly the force users a dedicated class would be.

No "handholding" just a logical extrapolation.

I was thinking of replying to ScooterAB, but I really don't see the point. His so-called "realism" is really just a bucketload of whiny pessimism, and if more eloquent posts refuting his pessimism have been ignored thus far, nothing I say is going to change his mind. In fact, probably best overall if folks just ignore him and leave him to wallow in his pessimism.

But I guess we'll see how close to or far off the mark all the various guesses in just over a month from now (presuming the F&D Beta does get a GenCon release).

So go on being immature and calling me angsty or whatever. Like I said, I'm a realist. I'm basing my opinions on observations of what FFG is actually doing and what is plausible, not fantastic wishing I'm dreaming up. I'm making real observations based on evidence and study, not internet attacks because someone doesn't agree with someone else.

Heh heh. I have to wonder about your observation skills then. Each book has had 6 careers and 18 specs. Force has so far only been relegated to an afterthought for those that want it for their bounty Hunters or soldiers or whatever. To me, the obvious next step is careers and multiple career specs as I really don't see the point of keeping it as an add-on or afterthought for other careers. People want full-bore Force careers/specs, an official lightsaber skill (which to this point has been only available as a possible option), and more Force powers. Careers are themes that help define characters for many people, and Jedi are one of the most recognizable themes of Star Wars. Seems pretty obvious to me and I would be surprised not to see one.

Not disappointed, just surprised. I have no wishlists, only a need for more Force options.

For a more palatable video game reference

?

I'm actually taken aback that Age of Rebellion didn't advance the timeline to post-Hoth. It makes me wonder what FFG is planning for Force and Destiny , given that we all assumed AoR would be post-Hoth and then F&D would be post-Endor as a way to be more fertile for Jedi characters.

I thought the book specifically mentioned Luke and Obi-Wan as the only Force users the rebellion had at its disposal in the given timeframe, but now I can't find that bit anywhere.

But really, the only important question is what color the book will be.

I think it'll be blue.

Why is it so necessary for the Force to be the central concept for your character?

Easy - because sometimes in the movies you get a character that started as one archetype (Luke, farmer) and added jedi as another and sometime you get someone who was 100% pure jedi from the get go (Obi-Wan - and well, pretty much every Jedi in the Old Republic). Sometimes adding it on makes sense, sometimes using it as the core of the character makes sense.

With a game this flexible, it doesn't seem logical to force a character to go X+Y when the concept says Y straight out of the gate.

Besides - by this point we've got 42 separate archetypes to chose from (two core books, plus two class books - not counting the Colonist one - so 45 by the time F&D comes out). What else do we need that hasn't been covered? Where is the harm in throwing the force a bone with 9 Jedi archetypes in a pure Force User book?

Very little actually separates them, mechanically, from one another. Very few are actually able to do "their thing" right out of the gate.

Lets see, human with 110 points plus max disadvantage, forgoing any attribute raising - you could get pretty far down the Talent Tree track with just those 120 points. You could get to, oh, just to pick an example, the Improved Tirade and Improved Rhetoric - the two talents that pretty much define a politico - and still have a couple of points left to throw into skills.

So actually. . . no.

I think it'll be blue.

My money says Green!

I think it'll be blue.

My money says Green!

I'm betting purple.