Rather than focus on where we disagree, let's look at where we agree.

I think we could have a couple of 'forms' trees, where say one focuses on attack, and one on defense - perhaps something along the lines of Soresu form being a 15xp talent, where you commit a force die to increase your defenses by 1 as long as lightsaber is held activated? And for a 25xp talent Improved Soresu, where it's +2 instead?

That was sort of what I was thinking. The similar forms could be grouped together into a spec/power tree/advanced whatever, leaving us with something like 3 or 4 to choose from. We don't need a bajillion forms to choose form that are only slightly different from one another, when those differences can be represented by the sum of using different talents.

I think they will make starting characters from each book compatible but I don't see why a lightsaber is out of the question.

Every other book opens up the iconic gear/equipment/ship that's required for the careers to work well at character creation.

Simple. A lightsaber is 10 grand worth of personal gear , for a weapon that does far more damage than almost everything else, crits more easily than anything else, and can cut through other weapons like butter. Where as in EoE, everyone gets a seat on a ship, or in AoR, everyone gets a room in a base or half of a Y-Wing to borrow. It's not the same because those things are group assets. F&D will likely still give some kind of transport option, but I highly doubt that over 10 grand in credits is going to get handed out just because Jimmy wants to pretend he's an extinct and incredibly illegal space wizard.

Plus, there is nothing to say that you can start as a Jedi, canonically or based on precedent. Not only are the Jedi extinct, but FFG has would be invalidating a great deal of material by making a Jedi career. We'll know more in a week or so, but I continue to doubt the Jedi career wishlist because it isn't based on evidence. And without a Jedi career, there is no reason for anyone to start with a lightsaber. Does that answer why it's out of the question?

Yikes, yeah, I don't envy FFG for having to make a decision about handing out lightsabers as starting gear. It's guaranteed to piss off someone regardless of what you choose. Overall, I agree with Scooterin's point here:

Simple. A lightsaber is 10 grand worth of personal gear , for a weapon that does far more damage than almost everything else, crits more easily than anything else, and can cut through other weapons like butter. Where as in EoE, everyone gets a seat on a ship, or in AoR, everyone gets a room in a base or half of a Y-Wing to borrow. It's not the same because those things are group assets. F&D will likely still give some kind of transport option, but I highly doubt that over 10 grand in credits is going to get handed out just because Jimmy wants to pretend he's an extinct and incredibly illegal space wizard.

Plus, there is nothing to say that you can start as a Jedi, canonically or based on precedent. Not only are the Jedi extinct, but FFG has would be invalidating a great deal of material by making a Jedi career. We'll know more in a week or so, but I continue to doubt the Jedi career wishlist because it isn't based on evidence. And without a Jedi career, there is no reason for anyone to start with a lightsaber. Does that answer why it's out of the question?

I would prefer to not have lightsabers considered "starting kit" in F&D. In fact, "lightsaber" being listed as a starting ability for every d20 Jedi class I can ever recall seeing is something I loathed about those systems. I only recall one of old WEG Jedi templates (Failed Jedi) starting with a 'saber. I liked that achieving a lightsaber by building it was a major goal for the character to work towards. I also think not having access to sabers at the start of the game provides a welcome deterent to players who want Jedi power without Jedi responsibility .*

On the one hand, the game seems to be about the characters having access to their iconic kit from the get go. But on the other hand, they're expected to do that on a meager 500 credits, unless they take a hit to duty/obligation.

In the two games released so far, they've given the group a choice about transport/housing, and the individual a choice about obligation/duty. I think it would make sense to frame the decisions about a lightsaber in these terms.

If the decision replaces the group decision, it would mean everyone's getting sabers or noone's getting sabers (at least via this mechanic), and the sabers would come at the expense of some other benefit to the group (e.g. in AoR, the group can choose a base and get more credits for gear, but at the expense of independent travel). The alternatives for a group decision could be a mentor, or a ship, or a safe refuge. However, an "all or none" decision about sabers seems out of place, at least IMO.

If the decision is personal, then I would expect the character to have to take a hit to their destiny pool (or whatever the Duty/Ob resource equivalent is in F&D). I think this option is within the realm of possibility, but given the cost of a lightsaber and optional cost-benefit options provided in EotE & AoR, I feel like there would need to be some kind of special exception made for this to work.

In writing this post, I think "starting with a lightsaber" really is a character creation issue at it's foundation, which means it's going to butt up into other F&D character creation issues, such as:

• How F&D character creation plays with AoR & EotE creation
• How FFG justifies a whole group of force users hanging out together during the rebellion era
• How the Duty/Ob equivalent resource works
• How the talent trees are constructed.

We may see more of the same, as AoR followed EotE, or because the nature of a game with force users is so different from EotE & AoR the rules for creation will also be substantially different as well. Too much information is unknown at this point for this to be anything more than insubstantial conjecture.

So, who wants to bet whether the F&D beta gets announced tomorrow (Friday, 8/8)?

I'm betting it does.

I don't sweat Lightsabers at the start. To me the Force powers raise the actual specter of OP in the game and unbalance. A Marauder with a tricked out vibro axe is going to be more or less the same kind of damage output as a Lightsaber.

Sheeseh, I don't know which way to throw my support. On one hand, right out of the gate, the lightsaber is a badassed weapon. On the other hand, it's a goddamned iconic part of Star Wars - one might say the most. It was always sad that in SW:Galaxies you couldn't have a Jedi straight away (or at least until the end of the game's life). Not being one of the most recognizable things in the universe kind of took the wind out of my sails for that game.

Eh, I guess I'd include a section about leaving it up to the GM and the nature of the game. An all Padawan game in the E1 era might have sabers right out of the box while a Rebellion Era Jedi might have to work for it. I'd make it situational, I guess.

(Hurray for wishy-washyness!)

i dont know why everyone is so afraid of the good old light stick.

1. as has been said before its not the end all be all of weapons(geonosian blasters have the same crit)

2. if anyone see you use it your as good as dead (Imperial Inquisitioners anyone )

3. if it gets damaged your out 10k(no repair skill)

4. and with no current deflect skill you are a clay pigeon for most NPCs

i dont know why everyone is so afraid of the good old light stick.

1. as has been said before its not the end all be all of weapons(geonosian blasters have the same crit)

2. if anyone see you use it your as good as dead (Imperial Inquisitioners anyone )

3. if it gets damaged your out 10k(no repair skill)

4. and with no current deflect skill you are a clay pigeon for most NPCs

1. No comment.

2. There is more to the Galaxy than that controlled by the Empire. According to the FFG books, the vast majority of the Galaxy is beyond the Empire's control. Presumably those that are on the run from the Empire would be likely to stay outside of areas under Imperial control whenever possible.

3. Mechanics can be used to repair anything in these games.

4. You're no more vulnerable than someone using any other Engaged-range weapon.

1. There are several instagib weapons. While the lightsabre is impressive, it is not the end of all things.

2. That seems like a contradiction HappyDaze. We play Rebells to free the galaxy from the Empire. It is a desperate struggle but it is so because the Empire is so big. Not because half of the galaxy just says 'Meh' and does not help us.

Not to mention if the Empire wants to go somewhere to kill an individual ... who could stop them?

3. Yup, or built anew.

4. Again yup.

In Force and Destiny, you're not necessarily playing rebels. You're playing fugitives.

Rather than focus on where we disagree, let's look at where we agree.

I think we could have a couple of 'forms' trees, where say one focuses on attack, and one on defense - perhaps something along the lines of Soresu form being a 15xp talent, where you commit a force die to increase your defenses by 1 as long as lightsaber is held activated? And for a 25xp talent Improved Soresu, where it's +2 instead?

That was sort of what I was thinking. The similar forms could be grouped together into a spec/power tree/advanced whatever, leaving us with something like 3 or 4 to choose from. We don't need a bajillion forms to choose form that are only slightly different from one another, when those differences can be represented by the sum of using different talents.

I think they will make starting characters from each book compatible but I don't see why a lightsaber is out of the question.

Every other book opens up the iconic gear/equipment/ship that's required for the careers to work well at character creation.

Simple. A lightsaber is 10 grand worth of personal gear , for a weapon that does far more damage than almost everything else, crits more easily than anything else, and can cut through other weapons like butter. Where as in EoE, everyone gets a seat on a ship, or in AoR, everyone gets a room in a base or half of a Y-Wing to borrow. It's not the same because those things are group assets. F&D will likely still give some kind of transport option, but I highly doubt that over 10 grand in credits is going to get handed out just because Jimmy wants to pretend he's an extinct and incredibly illegal space wizard.

Plus, there is nothing to say that you can start as a Jedi, canonically or based on precedent. Not only are the Jedi extinct, but FFG has would be invalidating a great deal of material by making a Jedi career. We'll know more in a week or so, but I continue to doubt the Jedi career wishlist because it isn't based on evidence. And without a Jedi career, there is no reason for anyone to start with a lightsaber. Does that answer why it's out of the question?

So you don't thing F&D is going to introduce Jedi?

Ok man. Whatever.

I don't sweat Lightsabers at the start. To me the Force powers raise the actual specter of OP in the game and unbalance. A Marauder with a tricked out vibro axe is going to be more or less the same kind of damage output as a Lightsaber.

And it's probably easier/cheaper to get.

At the end of the day, though, a lightsaber is comically easy to get. We hit 10 grand each in my EoE game in short order because most of us have nothing to buy. I've also devised a very sound, characterful means to craft synth-crystals and build a lightsaber (since my character is a mechanic, the means to do this isn't that complicated once I learn what a lightsaber is). And in any game, once any Force user gets going, a GM can have the player build, buy, steal, or find a lightsaber with ease. Not starting with one doesn't mean you can't have one.

But the issue with starting with one comes from the idea that not everyone should start with one. Again, there has been nothing said and no reasonable assumption that every single starting F&D character will be a Force user or specifically identify as a Jedi. I still contend that we are going to see important combatant, face, and other archetype characters who occupy the Destiny part of the title. So with only a few Force users (if any at start), it's a large disparity for some to get 10 000 credits to start and others to not.

The cost of a lightsaber seems largely irrelevant.

The bigger issue with getting a lightsaber is it's rarity.

But the real issue is game balance. I suspect something will balance it out or a less powerful version will be granted - if the devs and play testers even have a problem with it.

I don't think that a lightsaber imbalances the game as much as you think. Others have already mentioned how a properly moded vibroax is just as powerful, and easier to get as of now. Also surviving long in melee range isnt going be easy for a starting character. I can see how a traning saber could be seen as more balanced but every jedi will try to tinker with it to get the real thing as quickly as possible.

Rather than focus on where we disagree, let's look at where we agree.

I think we could have a couple of 'forms' trees, where say one focuses on attack, and one on defense - perhaps something along the lines of Soresu form being a 15xp talent, where you commit a force die to increase your defenses by 1 as long as lightsaber is held activated? And for a 25xp talent Improved Soresu, where it's +2 instead?

That was sort of what I was thinking. The similar forms could be grouped together into a spec/power tree/advanced whatever, leaving us with something like 3 or 4 to choose from. We don't need a bajillion forms to choose form that are only slightly different from one another, when those differences can be represented by the sum of using different talents.

I think they will make starting characters from each book compatible but I don't see why a lightsaber is out of the question.

Every other book opens up the iconic gear/equipment/ship that's required for the careers to work well at character creation.

Simple. A lightsaber is 10 grand worth of personal gear , for a weapon that does far more damage than almost everything else, crits more easily than anything else, and can cut through other weapons like butter. Where as in EoE, everyone gets a seat on a ship, or in AoR, everyone gets a room in a base or half of a Y-Wing to borrow. It's not the same because those things are group assets. F&D will likely still give some kind of transport option, but I highly doubt that over 10 grand in credits is going to get handed out just because Jimmy wants to pretend he's an extinct and incredibly illegal space wizard.

Plus, there is nothing to say that you can start as a Jedi, canonically or based on precedent. Not only are the Jedi extinct, but FFG has would be invalidating a great deal of material by making a Jedi career. We'll know more in a week or so, but I continue to doubt the Jedi career wishlist because it isn't based on evidence. And without a Jedi career, there is no reason for anyone to start with a lightsaber. Does that answer why it's out of the question?

So you don't thing F&D is going to introduce Jedi?

Ok man. Whatever.

"I think lightsabers may not be suitable as starting gear" becomes "I think F&D won't introduce Jedi"

Yeah... didn't miss these conversations...

To get anywhere near this conclusion, you have to twist what is said above from "I doubt there will be a Jedi career" to "I doubt there will be Jedi", which is simply an absurd conclusion.

I don't think that a lightsaber imbalances the game as much as you think. Others have already mentioned how a properly moded vibroax is just as powerful, and easier to get as of now. Also surviving long in melee range isnt going be easy for a starting character. I can see how a traning saber could be seen as more balanced but every jedi will try to tinker with it to get the real thing as quickly as possible.

Again, the point I'm taking from the posts above is not "Lightsabers are unbalanced", its that "lightsabers are unbalaned as starting gear". Yes, a "properly modded vibro axe" is nearly as powerful as a 'saber, but it's very difficult or nearly impossible to start the game with an axe that powerful.

Jedi are extinct. But you can play one?. Just no career for it. Because that would somehow invalidate other things and break canon somehow. But some loose amalgamation of universal Jedi talent trees (that would also make it extra expensive to play a "Jedi") wouldn't (?)

So the best we can hope for is...a generic force using career available at character creation that grants FR:1 and later buy into some universal Jedi talent tree and hope the GM throws 10K your way and a super rare lightsaber?

So the ability to play the most iconic force user in the setting - itself an iconic part of the setting - won't be a first tier character option?

That about sum it up?

And if that's the case there's not a big need for F&D. Just use the force stuff in EotE and AoR.

As far as having lightsabers being starting kit in this system, I'd hope the answer would be no, considering that they are far more powerful in this system than any of the prior Star Wars RPGs.

With the d20 books, also remember that said books were meant to cover all eras of play, including ones like the Prequels/Clone Wars and New Jedi Order where there was a viable Jedi Order that was up and running; in contrast FFG opted to focus on a single era, which is a rather significant difference in design between the two games. And in WEG, a lightsaber didn't have any special traits of its own other than having a much higher base difficulty on one's attack roll while dealing the same damage as a heavy blaster pistol or a blaster rifle (at least until the PC picked up the Lightsaber Combat power, which was when things started to get scary in terms of a Jedi PC's combat prowess).

While I figure there's going to be a Jedi career (no matter how much folks may dislike the notion) as well as the odds being high for the now traditional Consular/Guardian/Sentinel split (again now matter how much folks may hate that notion), I really don't see a functional lightsaber as being available in a PC's starting kit. Particularly if the guesses that the book is going to cover other Force-using groups are correct, then giving any would-be Jedi a free ever-glowin' beatstick of doom would make things fairly lopsided, even with the various fluff/setting-based drawbacks that come from possessing (much less openly wielding) such a weapon.

That being said, I'd be surprised if the means wasn't presented to allow PCs to construct their own lightsaber. I've got a system of my own for that, and it works pretty well. It's not an easy check to make, but it can be done by a fairly fresh PC if they've got the time and credits for the necessary components. The Jedi and their lore might be close to extinction in the Rebellion Era, but it's not entirely gone and there's going to be a huge draw for players to play a Jedi.

Jedi are extinct. But you can play one?. Just no career for it. Because that would somehow invalidate other things and break canon somehow. But some loose amalgamation of universal Jedi talent trees (that would also make it extra expensive to play a "Jedi") wouldn't (?)

So the best we can hope for is...a generic force using career available at character creation that grants FR:1 and later buy into some universal Jedi talent tree and hope the GM throws 10K your way and a super rare lightsaber?

So the ability to play the most iconic force user in the setting - itself an iconic part of the setting - won't be a first tier character option?

That about sum it up?

And if that's the case there's not a big need for F&D. Just use the force stuff in EotE and AoR.

To answer a lot of this, "yes". On a few specific points:

• There's no need for the most iconic force user in the setting to be a "first tier" character option.
• Character's can construct lightsabers instead of GMs simply handing them out via fiat. That doesn't mean they should be handed out at creation.
• The previous material was little more than a stopgap, so more complete information is needed, justifying the need for F&D.

On another, broader note: You can choose to either continue your antagonistic rhetoric with community members with dissenting opinions, OR to have a constructive conversation with them. You can't have it both ways. Until you choose the latter, I'm choosing to not engage further.

Jedi are extinct. But you can play one?. Just no career for it. Because that would somehow invalidate other things and break canon somehow. But some loose amalgamation of universal Jedi talent trees (that would also make it extra expensive to play a "Jedi") wouldn't (?)

So the best we can hope for is...a generic force using career available at character creation that grants FR:1 and later buy into some universal Jedi talent tree and hope the GM throws 10K your way and a super rare lightsaber?

So the ability to play the most iconic force user in the setting - itself an iconic part of the setting - won't be a first tier character option?

That about sum it up?

And if that's the case there's not a big need for F&D. Just use the force stuff in EotE and AoR.

To answer a lot of this, "yes". On a few specific points:

• There's no need for the most iconic force user in the setting to be a "first tier" character option.
• Character's can construct lightsabers instead of GMs simply handing them out via fiat. That doesn't mean they should be handed out at creation.
• The previous material was little more than a stopgap, so more complete information is needed, justifying the need for F&D.

On another, broader note: You can choose to either continue your antagonistic rhetoric with community members with dissenting opinions, OR to have a constructive conversation with them. You can't have it both ways. Until you choose the latter, I'm choosing to not engage further.

Your attitude is certainly at least as bad as mine is. But thanks for the lecture on it. I'll try to be less glib if you're less condescending.

There's no "need" for one of the most iconic characters in a setting to be a first tier option in a gaming system for that setting.

Really? I guess it depends on your definition of need - but especially in reference to a core rule book dealing with that aspect of the setting it seems like a need to me.

And as Donovan Morningfire has pointed out - FFG is a business. You think FFG has been teasing the Jedi option for 3 years and then will make it a second tier option? A whole core book focused on "the force" experience in the Star Wars setting but Jedi won't be up front and center?

We'll find out soon enough though.

If the Devs think lightsabers are too powerful for starting characters they could just introduce less powerful versions at character creation that can be upgraded later. I find it hard to believe that they'd introduce a Jedi starting option but not provide the iconic weapon to go with it.

As far as having lightsabers being starting kit in this system, I'd hope the answer would be no, considering that they are far more powerful in this system than any of the prior Star Wars RPGs.

With the d20 books, also remember that said books were meant to cover all eras of play, including ones like the Prequels/Clone Wars and New Jedi Order where there was a viable Jedi Order that was up and running; in contrast FFG opted to focus on a single era, which is a rather significant difference in design between the two games. And in WEG, a lightsaber didn't have any special traits of its own other than having a much higher base difficulty on one's attack roll while dealing the same damage as a heavy blaster pistol or a blaster rifle (at least until the PC picked up the Lightsaber Combat power, which was when things started to get scary in terms of a Jedi PC's combat prowess).

While I figure there's going to be a Jedi career (no matter how much folks may dislike the notion) as well as the odds being high for the now traditional Consular/Guardian/Sentinel split (again now matter how much folks may hate that notion), I really don't see a functional lightsaber as being available in a PC's starting kit. Particularly if the guesses that the book is going to cover other Force-using groups are correct, then giving any would-be Jedi a free ever-glowin' beatstick of doom would make things fairly lopsided, even with the various fluff/setting-based drawbacks that come from possessing (much less openly wielding) such a weapon.

That being said, I'd be surprised if the means wasn't presented to allow PCs to construct their own lightsaber. I've got a system of my own for that, and it works pretty well. It's not an easy check to make, but it can be done by a fairly fresh PC if they've got the time and credits for the necessary components. The Jedi and their lore might be close to extinction in the Rebellion Era, but it's not entirely gone and there's going to be a huge draw for players to play a Jedi.

I agree that setting the game in a specific era does come with some design considerations. It's possible that instead of providing a first tier Jedi option they'll only be offering the experience of the quest to become a Jedi as an advanced character.

FFG design seems focused on the player and Star Wars experience which seemed part of the reason to split the game into 3 core rule books.

It's my guess they'll go with the least restrictive experience option and provide a path for starting Jedi - opening up the table for different kinds of experiences that all fit in the setting. The experience of questing to be a Jedi is easy to do if you have the option of starting as a Jedi.

I still don't view a Lightsaber as a big deal. A player can pick up a HBR very early on and be spraying death every which way. A Gadgeteer, Gunner, or Outlaw Tech with Jury Rigging can further turn a HBR into the ultimate hose of death with Talents that cost zero credits and not many xp at all. In regards to cost, players are given 120,000 worth of ship free of charge at chargen, so the money isn't really an issue either to me. This still isn't to say I feel it should be automatic, it would be a pretty good default first session I would think, but if they were handed out I don't think it will erode the entire foundation and balance of the system either.

I still don't view a Lightsaber as a big deal. A player can pick up a HBR very early on and be spraying death every which way. A Gadgeteer, Gunner, or Outlaw Tech with Jury Rigging can further turn a HBR into the ultimate hose of death with Talents that cost zero credits and not many xp at all. In regards to cost, players are given 120,000 worth of ship free of charge at chargen, so the money isn't really an issue either to me. This still isn't to say I feel it should be automatic, it would be a pretty good default first session I would think, but if they were handed out I don't think it will erode the entire foundation and balance of the system either.

My qualms about lightsabers as starting equipment are as much about fluff as they are about mechanics. There was a statement quoted awhile back that I believe was attributed to one devs on the either the WEG or WotC SW-RPGs, or maybe both.

I can't recall the exact quote, but the gist was that for a player to be in the right mindset to play a Jedi, then the player should be willing to play a Jedi without powers and or a lightsaber. From this perspective, the Jedi is fundamentally an ascetic who has dedicated their life to the Jedi "philosophy" and tries to improve the galaxy around them in pursuit of said philosophy. The lightsaber and powers are nice fringe benefits, but are not fundamental to the being a Jedi.

By starting characters as a padawan and minimal powers and no lightsaber, it provides a chance for players to experience this point of view. I've run games for Jedi characters based on this perspective and I've played Jedi characters from this perspective, and it's created some extremely rewarding roleplaying and storytelling.

I'll probably be accused that I'm "trying to force my play style on others" by stating that I hope FFG takes this tack on F&D, but, meh. It's a different point of view, others will take from it what they want.

That's a perfectly fine take on the fluff for a game - it sounds like fun too.

But I don't think the rules should confine it to that option as the default. And I don't think the fluff demands it either.

Aye. I don't see there is much to be gained by pretending people haven't shown up to a Jedi game for the lightsaber and kewl powerz.

Life is to short and gaming time to hard to arrange to waste on pissing about avoiding the issue.

Isn't the beta due out soon? How does one get their mitts on a copy?