He'll no. But I'd do think that a Jedi game should spend more time worrying about being a good Jedi game that it does worrying about people playing a smuggler game think of it.

But they are three flavours of one game, really, and from the very beginning, FFG have stated they intend all the games to be wholly compatible with each other.

Furthermore, they have left F&D until last because some people fear that the 'power creep' will sky-rocket when the glowstick boys finally show up. I have to reason that they will be very, very careful about the Force users game.

And this fact is likely to mean that people who want to play over-the-top Asgardian God jedi (the kind who have been pushed down our throats for the last 20 years of EU fan-fiction) right out of the box are likely to be disappointed. Assuming they start with the same money, they might be hard-pressed to afford a blaster, let alone a glowstick with a 10k price tag.

I'd say no to automatically having a Lightsaber because that would prejudge that all Career/Specs created were former Jedi of one kind or another. The game isn't being called Jedi and Destiny. A GM may choose to allow this depending on the player's background and what the GM thinks is appropriate but it by no means should be automatic or assumed.

I think we can get a decent argument going about whether starting F&D characters should have lightsabers.

I say yes, obviously.

Good question.

I can see pros and cons. They are (obviously) very iconic... but they are also way beyond the budget of any starting character from the other two games. Now, assuming that balance will remain the same... I'm guessing not.

(In story terms, didn't a Jedi kind of have to earn or even make his lightsaber?)

Now, a lightsaber clocks in at a cool 10K credits. So I'd say a starting Jedi would only have one if the Bounty Hunter started with 10k credits to spend on armour, weapon upgrades, etc.

(and doesn't that depend on your Force tradition anyway? Did they all use glowsticks? In our games, the Imperial Hands and Alliance Emergents would sooner eat their vibroswords than use the weapons of their hated enemies...)

Of course, Edge groups start with a starship and Age groups start with a ship/base/group of fighters. All of these are something that is way above what they can spend starting funds on, but they are given as being part of the core concept.

There was a question in the order 66 podcast about how they intended to prevent Jedi from taking over games, and the FFG mans answer was 'there is more to balance than combat'.

Which I interpreted to mean that they know **** well that a skilled lightsaber wielded backed by a loosey goosey narrative magic system is highly unlikely to end up mechanically balanced with non Jedi characters.

Honestly, I don't know what they are going to do. I mean, surely the characters in a Jedi game need to be recognisably Jedi-y, which means lightsabers and a double jump.

I'd agree that starting advanced characters getting an XP boost (everyone at the table) is ideal.

My main point is that I don't see why a workable standard starting character Jedi is out of the question.

I'd agree that starting advanced characters getting an XP boost (everyone at the table) is ideal.

My main point is that I don't see why a workable standard starting character Jedi is out of the question.

Define that? Cause you can to some extent now depending on your definition

I don't think you're being rude. This is a friendly discussion...

Appreciate it, it's something I feel strongly about, mostly because I'm hankering to play or GM a Jedi-centric campaign, so I'm concerned my fervor will become overbearing

I'd agree that starting advanced characters getting an XP boost (everyone at the table) is ideal.

My main point is that I don't see why a workable standard starting character Jedi is out of the question.

It's just a problem with the mechanics. A "Jedi" is someone who's had considerable academic education and martial training. If you have to pay for their Force capabilities at chargen, you're basically saying that all Jedi start with a handicap when it comes to Characteristics, and completely unschooled except for beginning career skill ranks. If you wanted to start with a Padawan, you couldn't even get to FR2 with the chargen XP allotment and you'd be stuck at the baseline for characteristics and skills. Since there's no evidence of such a trade-off in that regard in the movies or TCW, I think it's a mistake to shoehorn the chargen process just for the sake of conformity.

For my game, after we'd played a few sessions, one player wanted to buy into the Force tree, and had to do so with earned XP. But if I was starting a new game with a player who wanted to start with FR1 at chargen, I'd have given the spec to him for free, and would have provided a free spec to all the other players (or, actually 30XP for a new spec + Talents if there's XP left over).

Agreed, whafrog - assuming there even is a master and Council in the F&D set-up. I kinda get the feeling that the PCs are supposed to be the first students of some new order, some kind of budding post-Jedi thing.

If that's what happens that's fine. If the new book can only get you to FR5 (where Yoda is, say, FR7+), that's fine too...then I can look forward to a TCW book, or a KotOR book, or...

To clarify, I'm not saying they should redefine the entire chargen process just so you can start with a real independent Jedi. What I'm hoping for is that they at least address how to make that work.

I don't think you're being rude. This is a friendly discussion...

Appreciate it, it's something I feel strongly about, mostly because I'm hankering to play or GM a Jedi-centric campaign, so I'm concerned my fervor will become overbearing

I'd agree that starting advanced characters getting an XP boost (everyone at the table) is ideal.

My main point is that I don't see why a workable standard starting character Jedi is out of the question.

It's just a problem with the mechanics. A "Jedi" is someone who's had considerable academic education and martial training. If you have to pay for their Force capabilities at chargen, you're basically saying that all Jedi start with a handicap when it comes to Characteristics, and completely unschooled except for beginning career skill ranks. If you wanted to start with a Padawan, you couldn't even get to FR2 with the chargen XP allotment and you'd be stuck at the baseline for characteristics and skills. Since there's no evidence of such a trade-off in that regard in the movies or TCW, I think it's a mistake to shoehorn the chargen process just for the sake of conformity.

For my game, after we'd played a few sessions, one player wanted to buy into the Force tree, and had to do so with earned XP. But if I was starting a new game with a player who wanted to start with FR1 at chargen, I'd have given the spec to him for free, and would have provided a free spec to all the other players (or, actually 30XP for a new spec + Talents if there's XP left over).

Agreed, whafrog - assuming there even is a master and Council in the F&D set-up. I kinda get the feeling that the PCs are supposed to be the first students of some new order, some kind of budding post-Jedi thing.

If that's what happens that's fine. If the new book can only get you to FR5 (where Yoda is, say, FR7+), that's fine too...then I can look forward to a TCW book, or a KotOR book, or...

To clarify, I'm not saying they should redefine the entire chargen process just so you can start with a real independent Jedi. What I'm hoping for is that they at least address how to make that work.

Or you start them with more XP. Only they are younger. you have the 25 year old smuggler playing with a freshly minted Jedi Knight of 18. They both start with a bunch of extra XP as they are both experienced.

I have a feeling that F&D will deal with the kind of Force-users that are in the same timeline as the other two games. I.e. that it will take place just after the destruction of Alderaan and the force users that are light-sided are few and far between and are not raised from infancy in Jedi traditions but like Luke and Ezra (from Rebels) that are just starting their Force career.

I don't think that FFG will change the time-focus to either before nor after EotE or AoR but will keep it the same. Which i think will mean a newly started character that has just picked up the force and taken a first look into a larger world.

I do think it will be Force-using careers, but they will be in line with the earlier when it comes to power level.

But the difference i think will be that these (some) careers will start with Force rating 1, and they will have a few Universal specs that also are force users, some of them might even have higher perquisites then Exile or Emergent.

I also think there will be non-force careers, because it Force and Destiny, and it will be more focus on the Force compared to the other two games but i don't think they will leave the non-force-users out just because "itz a J3di g4m3z".

But the thing about the lightsaber start, i don't think F&D start chars will start with one, however i do believe they might able to build one or have it gifted to them, maybe a bit like Contribution Rank in AoR. When F&D "duty" reaches a certain level one of the options might be to get hands on a lightsaber.

/Poseur gives some thoughts that i guess others have already given.

Nope. no force using career. They have already shown us how they do force. And they have chosen the method that gives us the most flexibility while not overshadowing everyone else.

Given how potent a lightsaber is, I'd be really surprised if Force and Destiny allows for PCs to start with one. While EotE and AoR do offer the option of giving the party a ship, the difference is that the ship isn't always available the way a weapon is. And for AoR, they dropped the extra credits from the "base of operations" Rebel Resource to only provide an extra 1000 credits per PC rather than the 2500 credits that the Beta listed.

Daeglan, I think you're too focused on how EotE and AoR did things in regards to Force users. Remember that in those two games, being a Force user is a purely optional feature and one that's ultimately not a major focus of those games. I suspect that if the design team could have gotten away without including any rules for PC Force users in those books, they'd have done so, but threw the customer base a bone by having the Exile and the Emergent as options (both of which required the GM's approval), and placing them in the last chapter of the player-accessible portion of the book strongly indicates that they're there as more of a foot note to those games.

The guys in charge of designing the game have made it pretty clear that being able to use the Force is going to be a major element of Force and Destiny (hell, it's in the name), so it'd be silly to not have Careers that start the PC off as a Force user, be it a minor Jedi with a few bits of training to a student of a reclusive Force tradition to someone naturally gifted enough to learn a few tricks on their own.

I'd be very surprised if any such characters start with a Force Rating greater than 1, or that they inherently get any notable advantage beyond having Force Rating 1 without having to pay an XP cost for it (much as PCs in EotE and/or AoR have to). Which in comparison to PCs from the other two books, prevents them from automatically overshadowing since they'd still have to spend XP to purchase Force powers, XP that's not being spent on Characteristics, Skills, or Talents.

I wonder if those folks that are wrong about what Force and Destiny has in terms of Careers and staring power level of PCs from that book will actually fess up to being wrong and openly eat some crow? Guess we'll find out in a couple of weeks...

More likely they'll fuss more because their idea/opinion is "better" than that of actual game devs...

Given how potent a lightsaber is, I'd be really surprised if Force and Destiny allows for PCs to start with one. While EotE and AoR do offer the option of giving the party a ship, the difference is that the ship isn't always available the way a weapon is. And for AoR, they dropped the extra credits from the "base of operations" Rebel Resource to only provide an extra 1000 credits per PC rather than the 2500 credits that the Beta listed.

Daeglan, I think you're too focused on how EotE and AoR did things in regards to Force users. Remember that in those two games, being a Force user is a purely optional feature and one that's ultimately not a major focus of those games. I suspect that if the design team could have gotten away without including any rules for PC Force users in those books, they'd have done so, but threw the customer base a bone by having the Exile and the Emergent as options (both of which required the GM's approval), and placing them in the last chapter of the player-accessible portion of the book strongly indicates that they're there as more of a foot note to those games.

The guys in charge of designing the game have made it pretty clear that being able to use the Force is going to be a major element of Force and Destiny (hell, it's in the name), so it'd be silly to not have Careers that start the PC off as a Force user, be it a minor Jedi with a few bits of training to a student of a reclusive Force tradition to someone naturally gifted enough to learn a few tricks on their own.

I'd be very surprised if any such characters start with a Force Rating greater than 1, or that they inherently get any notable advantage beyond having Force Rating 1 without having to pay an XP cost for it (much as PCs in EotE and/or AoR have to). Which in comparison to PCs from the other two books, prevents them from automatically overshadowing since they'd still have to spend XP to purchase Force powers, XP that's not being spent on Characteristics, Skills, or Talents.

I think you are approaching things wrong. You seem to forget that this is not the force sourcebook. It is a core rule book that will be a stand alone game that will be completely compatible. That means several things. 1. Starting Power level will be the same. 2. You need to be able to play the same range of characters as the previous games. So the 6 careers styles we have seen in the previous core books will make an appearance. As you still need to be able to make the same kinds of characters. 3. You will still have the droid species. You still need to be able to play R2 even in this game with out resorting to the other core books. 4. the force is not the focus. Just plays a much bigger part and we will have much more information on it. But it will not be the end all be all that people seem to think it will be. You still need to be able to run the range of star wars stories. Not just Jedi ones.

Yes we will finally get the lightsaber skill. Yes we will have the rest of the force system so as to be able to play higher power force characters. Yes we will likely have a bunch more force trees and i am pretty sure they will be universal trees. We will also likely have all the force powers from the previous books along with new ones. We will probably also have dark side force powers and things like rebuke, force push etc.

And you can start the came as a force user now. Not sure why you think otherwise. I do it all the time.

why does everyone assume there's going to be a Jedi career? Jedi is a philosophy not a career.

now for my take on what will be in the book.

1.basic rules as always

2.some of the more recognized force-sensitive races

3.maybe a force-sensitive career frame (lets say Student of the Force)

4.lots of force-sensitive universals (Initiate,force warrior,acolyte,mystic,scholar,master,knight,etc)

remember there is no difference between a sith and a Jedi besides philosophy.

and to the power issue remember per Lucas, only about a 100 or so Jedi's survived the war almost all on the outer rim and that was 20 years ago, so most would either have

A.died of old age

B.been track down and killed

C.be deep in hiding and not active

so most if not all PC in the game will have little to no advanced training (starting characters)

5.either a reprint of the force powers with one or two more or just one or two new ones

6.a run down on the old order maybe some info on the sith, but more then likely alot of info on the imperial groups set to hunt down the jedi

7.maybe some more transport type ships

8.the lightsaber skill

9.jedi hunter npcs and a reprint of the core npcs

10.Destiny- this one is my best guess for the Obligation/Duty mechanic in the game. by its self its neutral but can shift between good and bad. with plus and minuses for both sides.

well that's my take don't now if its right but was fun to write

In twenty years, very few Jedi would be worrying about death from old age unless they were already of advanced age at the start of the Clone Wars.

why does everyone assume there's going to be a Jedi career? Jedi is a philosophy not a career.

now for my take on what will be in the book.

1.basic rules as always

2.some of the more recognized force-sensitive races

3.maybe a force-sensitive career frame (lets say Student of the Force)

4.lots of force-sensitive universals (Initiate,force warrior,acolyte,mystic,scholar,master,knight,etc)

remember there is no difference between a sith and a Jedi besides philosophy.

and to the power issue remember per Lucas, only about a 100 or so Jedi's survived the war almost all on the outer rim and that was 20 years ago, so most would either have

A.died of old age

B.been track down and killed

C.be deep in hiding and not active

so most if not all PC in the game will have little to no advanced training (starting characters)

5.either a reprint of the force powers with one or two more or just one or two new ones

6.a run down on the old order maybe some info on the sith, but more then likely alot of info on the imperial groups set to hunt down the jedi

7.maybe some more transport type ships

8.the lightsaber skill

9.jedi hunter npcs and a reprint of the core npcs

10.Destiny- this one is my best guess for the Obligation/Duty mechanic in the game. by its self its neutral but can shift between good and bad. with plus and minuses for both sides.

well that's my take don't now if its right but was fun to write

i agree with everything. But I don't think there will be a career frame. We don't need one. You come up with a concept and buy the appropriate career universal force specialization that matches that concept.

@HappyDaze was thinking more about the older jedi masters on that one

The career frame would be needed for the starting skills nothing more.

And you can start the came as a force user now. Not sure why you think otherwise. I do it all the time.

And nobody here seriously said that a PC couldn't start as a Force user. Only that under AoR and EotE, being a Force user is mechanically tacked on optional element, one that the GM doesn't even have to include in their campaign if they don't want to. Particularly as nowhere in the character creation section of either book do they so much as make a mention of allowing a character to be Force-sensitive.

Again, the lead designers of this system have even said that being a Force user is going to be a core element of Force and Destiny. So just as the EotE careers are centered on PCs being members of the galactic fringe and AoR careers are centered PCs being members of the Rebel Alliance, it only makes sense that the PCs in Force and Destiny are going to be centered around being Force users.

Since you seem to be big on harping about "well that's how they did things in the other books!", maybe you'll realize that part of that "how they did things" is that the careers (i.e. one of the core elements of defining who the player's character is) is tied into the central theme of the rulebook it appeared in, and that they are bound to do the same with Force and Destiny, creating careers that are bound to that theme, part of which includes playing Force users. Thus, it's not far-fatched to conclude that some (or maybe even all) of the FaD careers are going to allow a PC whose primary focus is being a Force user first and foremost, as opposed to the EotE/AoR method which treats being a Force user similar to multilclassing in D&D; it's not something you start with, but rather is something you add on after the core character has been created.

why does everyone assume there's going to be a Jedi career?

A large part of it has to do with marketing.

Jedi are one of the most iconic elements of the Star Wars franchise, and with Clone Wars still being a recent memory and a Jedi character front and center in the upcoming Star Wars: Rebels series, having an RPG where there isn't a Jedi option really isn't sound marketing.

Rodney Thompson mentioned this in regards to Saga Edition (and to some extent the OCR/RCR systems) that as much as they may have wanted to not have a Jedi class in those games, the fact that Jedi are such an iconic element of the franchise meant that there would have been an uproar and thus lost sales if Jedi weren't a playable option right out the gate. Since the career/specialization system isn't that far divorced from the class system in most d20 games, this bears relevance for FFG as well.

And FFG itself has already suffered some of this, with potential customers passing on the system as the ability to be an actual Jedi as opposed to the "make pretend" version doesn't exist, and some citing they'll come back once FFG actually "finishes" the RPG. One of the biggest gripes when the EotE Beta came out was the lack of actual Jedi, even though Force users were an option. But they believe very strongly in their vision of how they're going to roll out the RPG, giving each of the franchise's core three elements (fringe/underworld, Galactic Civil War, and the Force) its own core rulebook instead of trying to cram everything into a single book the way WotC tried.

There's also the fact that for many Star Wars fans, the term "Jedi" is pretty much synonymous with "Force user." Heck, in the old WEG game books, the term Jedi was used to refer to anyone that could use the Force, even if they weren't really trained in the ways and philosophy of the Jedi. And WEG had character templates that indeed allowed a character to start off as a Jedi, such as the Minor Jedi and Failed Jedi, both of whom began play with a lightsaber and were noted to actually have been trained as Jedi in an RPG that was by almost by default set in the Rebellion Era (particularly the 1st edition, which predated the bulk of the EU).

Could the game survive without a Jedi career in terms of pure game mechanics? Undoubtedly. After all, in spite of what some nay-sayers have said, the system works just fine with Force users being a fringe element of the system as is, and I'm sure there are a number of GMs that won't include Force and Destiny in their campaigns because they don't see a need for it in the stories they and their players are telling.

But in terms of marketing Force and Destiny to people that aren't already hooked on this system? Jedi career is almost going to be a requirement from a marketing perspective. And remember that as much as the design team loves to create these games, FFG is a "for profit" company, and they're not going to completely dismiss something like the potential internet backlash (which is much more of a concern for companies these days thanks to social media than it was 10 years ago) that having "zero options to play a Jedi" in a game centered around playing Force users could incite.

why does everyone assume there's going to be a Jedi career?

A large part of it has to do with marketing.

Jedi are one of the most iconic elements of the Star Wars franchise, and with Clone Wars still being a recent memory and a Jedi character front and center in the upcoming Star Wars: Rebels series, having an RPG where there isn't a Jedi option really isn't sound marketing.

Rodney Thompson mentioned this in regards to Saga Edition (and to some extent the OCR/RCR systems) that as much as they may have wanted to not have a Jedi class in those games, the fact that Jedi are such an iconic element of the franchise meant that there would have been an uproar and thus lost sales if Jedi weren't a playable option right out the gate. Since the career/specialization system isn't that far divorced from the class system in most d20 games, this bears relevance for FFG as well.

And FFG itself has already suffered some of this, with potential customers passing on the system as the ability to be an actual Jedi as opposed to the "make pretend" version doesn't exist, and some citing they'll come back once FFG actually "finishes" the RPG. One of the biggest gripes when the EotE Beta came out was the lack of actual Jedi, even though Force users were an option. But they believe very strongly in their vision of how they're going to roll out the RPG, giving each of the franchise's core three elements (fringe/underworld, Galactic Civil War, and the Force) its own core rulebook instead of trying to cram everything into a single book the way WotC tried.

There's also the fact that for many Star Wars fans, the term "Jedi" is pretty much synonymous with "Force user." Heck, in the old WEG game books, the term Jedi was used to refer to anyone that could use the Force, even if they weren't really trained in the ways and philosophy of the Jedi. And WEG had character templates that indeed allowed a character to start off as a Jedi, such as the Minor Jedi and Failed Jedi, both of whom began play with a lightsaber and were noted to actually have been trained as Jedi in an RPG that was by almost by default set in the Rebellion Era (particularly the 1st edition, which predated the bulk of the EU).

Could the game survive without a Jedi career in terms of pure game mechanics? Undoubtedly. After all, in spite of what some nay-sayers have said, the system works just fine with Force users being a fringe element of the system as is, and I'm sure there are a number of GMs that won't include Force and Destiny in their campaigns because they don't see a need for it in the stories they and their players are telling.

But in terms of marketing Force and Destiny to people that aren't already hooked on this system? Jedi career is almost going to be a requirement from a marketing perspective. And remember that as much as the design team loves to create these games, FFG is a "for profit" company, and they're not going to completely dismiss something like the potential internet backlash (which is much more of a concern for companies these days thanks to social media than it was 10 years ago) that having "zero options to play a Jedi" in a game centered around playing Force users could incite.

I think you missed the point of what i was saying. I was not claiming that you would not be able to play a Jedi in the book just that the career would not be a Jedi career because Jedi is not a job but a outlook on the universe and a set of rules for how to live your life. So i was thinking more of a generic career like force-user would be more inline.remember the Je'daii Order was originally formed as a philosophical study group situated on the planet Tython, a monastic order not a occupation

I think that a Jedi career is a must for the reasons Donovan points out.

But I'd phrase it a bit differently: it's something a lot of players want. And it's iconic to the game. FFG had made every other iconic Star Wars character archetype available in some form at character creation and I don't think they'll treat the Jedi any differently.

I also think they will get lightsabers at character creation. It's hard to play the iconic character without a lightsaber. Maybe they'll have a less deadly version to start with but I think they'll provide a lightsaber of some sort.

And if I'm wrong I'll eat crow.

The more I think about it the more whatfrog make sense. Or maybe it's because it's late and I'm tired

Of course a starting character will not mechanically resemble a Jedi knight or even a Padawan who's been trained for a while.

And it seems like you may not have enough xp at the beginning to buy into enough stuff to narritively paper over the gaps for an advanced character concept.

But this is still a perennial issue with Jedi in every system - starting characters don't model anything but beginners so you'll need to grow into the concept (unless you start with bonus XP).

It will he interesting to see how FFG handles this. And how strictly they construct the rules to confine the characters to the canon of a specific era. I hope they have a broader scope mechanics wise - just like every other career.