I'm hoping for Quermian; the undeveloped race of the Jedi Master Council. Poor Yareal Poof didn't get a chance to shine in "The Phantom Menace".

I always imagined his name was Master 'Downin Frunt'!

It is not a force source book. It is a core rule book that will cover more force use. But it has to be able to stand on its own. it has to be able to run Han,R2D2, C3P0, Lando etc. In addition to running Luke on the power level seen in Return of the Jedi.

its funny that people still think this when FFG has already said that is not the case

page 4 1st paragraph Edge of the Empire beta " Star Wars:Age of Rebellion, the players take the fight to the oppressive Galactic empire as cunning spies,cock pilots and dedicated soldiers in the Rebel Alliance Finally, in Star Wars:Force and Destiny, the players become figures of legend; the last surviving force users in the galaxy, hunted by the empire, they must stay alive and more importantly ,stay true to the ideals of there forebearers -the fable jedi."

The books are standalone for what they cover meaning they all have the complete rules in them

1.Star Wars:Edge of the Empire -the fringe + basic rules

2.Star Wars:Age of Rebellion- Rebel Alliance + basic rule

3.Star Wars:Force and Destiny-force-users +basic rules

It is not a force source book. It is a core rule book that will cover more force use. But it has to be able to stand on its own. it has to be able to run Han,R2D2, C3P0, Lando etc. In addition to running Luke on the power level seen in Return of the Jedi.

its funny that people still think this when FFG has already said that is not the case

page 4 1st paragraph Edge of the Empire beta " Star Wars:Age of Rebellion, the players take the fight to the oppressive Galactic empire as cunning spies,cock pilots and dedicated soldiers in the Rebel Alliance Finally, in Star Wars:Force and Destiny, the players become figures of legend; the last surviving force users in the galaxy, hunted by the empire, they must stay alive and more importantly ,stay true to the ideals of there forebearers -the fable jedi."

I can see that point of view.

The description does imply that all the PCs would be force users. If true, this would make it very likely that FaD would have multiple force-user paths available (and not waste space replicating the "standard fare" non-force user options).

It also seems to imply that the PCs are not Jedi, but they come from the same sort of Light-side force tradition as the Jedi.

Not only that, but the wording leaves the door open for a different power level kind of game (more like Jedi superheroes than regular PCs).

The only problem I have with this interpretation is the following:

There has never been anything like this in Star Wars. Never has a band comprised completely of ex-Jedi characters (or Jedi wannabes) adventured together in the Rebellion era. While this, by itself, doesn't mean they can't invent that trope, I find it unlikely. Why? Because this is a shared universe, that all of us knew quite well before FFG even wrote down one word of EotE. They wish these RPGs to enable the telling of Star Wars stories. Fringers, traders, and smugglers eking out an existence in the outer rim? Yes. Underdog heroes taking the fight to the evil Galactic Empire? Yes!

A band composed of all former Jedi gathered together to do...what? Survive (but not necessarily join the Rebellion)? Hide-out (but not necessarily in the criminal underworld)? I don't see the raison d'etre. I can't figure out what they are supposed to do in a standalone FaD game. Whatever I have dreamed up thus far, while it might sound fun, it doesn't seem "Star Wars" enough.

Fly around in a ship (without a Career pilot) and fight for truth and justice (using only lightsabers and force powers) while trying to evade capture by the Imperials (but not caring enough about the Empire to actually join the Rebellion).

Doesn't make any sense!

That's why I am leaning toward FaD having just one more Force career. As I mentioned earlier, I am guessing it will be called Force Sensitive- Exemplar...this keeps with the "E" names, and sounds like a logical progression "E" word in the series "Exile", "Emergent", "XXX".

They will then fill out their take on the various other roles needed in an RPG like this (a pilot, a leader, a soldier, a tech, blah blah blah).

They may wind up including more than three Force Power trees, but not necessarily.

Final thoughts: FaD might be meant to most directly replicate the new types of plots and stories we'll see in the upcoming Star Wars: Rebels series. From the trailers I've seen, that sounds like a pair of Force users (and their 'regular' friends) running away from the Imps (but perhaps not formally joining Mon Mothma, et al) and learning about the force as they go. This concept fits very nicely with the release timeline, I'd say.

I do not think FaD will be a way to (easily) replicate the plots and stories from The Clone Wars cartoons (i.e. Jedi Superheroes).

I also firmly suspect that all three books will be balanced and symmetrical, and will work very well together. C'mon...you know FFG wants to sell all three of them to all of us!

I'm hoping that F&D will introduce a more epic level of starting play. Basically, everybody gets the starting chargen XP, then adds 200XP or more. This would put late-Padawans on a level with semi-experienced bounty hunters and the like, which fits my perception of the capability scale presented in canon.

You can have a character concept that the mechanics have to grow into. This is an issue with every gaming system.

If I want to start play as a Jedi Knight - trained from infancy in the Jedi Temple or from a Jedi in hiding from the Empire - that should be fine story/fluff wise if it fits the story the table wants to have.

This doesn't mean that you need the exactly appropriate Force Rating and force powers to start with.

You need a minimal amount to get you going and the rest will come as you spend XP. Being able to start with a Jedi specialization that provides a FR:1, a lightsaber, access to appropriate skills and the ability to buy into Talents and force powers, etc seems like it should be sufficient.

Or am I wrong? Is buying your way in a little to a smattering of force powers going to be so expensive that you can't really pull off the minimal feel of a Jedi without a massive beginning XP boost?

Or do you really need a high degree of skill with the force etc to have the feel of playing a Jedi?

I don't think a rule is necessary to start players at a higher xp level or to speed progression if that's desired in a game. A GM is free to hand out a block of xp to up the base capability of a group. Hand them a more robust set of starting gear. Hand wave exemptions to costs like out of career spec purchase costs, non career skills, etc. Anything can be tweaked in that regard. It all boils down to how long do you want to play the characters?

I could definitely see when F&D hits people will be like 8 year olds 2 days before Xmas and the desire to excel will be physically painful. I don't think I'd have it in my heart to not give a new Force wielder some kind of bone to begin with. It doesn't have to be a Lightsaber but maybe it could be......

The more I think about, the less "Force Careers" make sense.

What if Force Rating is somehow linked to whatever replaces "Obligation" and "Duty/Contribution" in the previous two games? Not exclusively attached, necessarily, but also not exactly a part of specific specializations or careers.

I don't think a rule is necessary to start players at a higher xp level or to speed progression if that's desired in a game. A GM is free to hand out a block of xp to up the base capability of a group. Hand them a more robust set of starting gear. Hand wave exemptions to costs like out of career spec purchase costs, non career skills, etc. Anything can be tweaked in that regard. It all boils down to how long do you want to play the characters?

Agreed.

Higher XP to start across the board would also be pretty messy when compared to the other games. They are supposed to be 100% compatible, and thus far characters have been able to have both Obligation and Duty no problem, and species/careers/specializations are all interchangeable.

Is buying your way in a little to a smattering of force powers going to be so expensive that you can't really pull off the minimal feel of a Jedi without a massive beginning XP boost?

Exactly. If you had to buy what Ahsoka can do by the time she can act independently, that's a LOT of XP. Especially considering that she was well-rounded and knowledgable in a variety of areas in addition to her force skills.

Force skills: lots of Enhance, some Move, a bit of Mind Trick, some Foresee, lots of Sense...and definitely a FR of 2 or 3. Plus she's teaching other teens older than herself about government corruption, etc...not something to hold a class and articulate on without a solid background.

The Jedi *are* better. Period. That's why there were only 10000 of them in a galaxy of trillions. The only way to accurately represent that inherent superiority in the game is through XP. If you have to spend XP on the Force at chargen, you end up with uneducated ineffective hand-wavers...or you're stuck playing a child, who constantly needs her master's accompaniment. The Council wouldn't give missions to children, or allow them to associate with some random band. They have to be capable of independence or it's going to feel forced...(no pun intended).

You can have a character concept that the mechanics have to grow into. This is an issue with every gaming system.

If I want to start play as a Jedi Knight - trained from infancy in the Jedi Temple or from a Jedi in hiding from the Empire - that should be fine story/fluff wise if it fits the story the table wants to have.

This doesn't mean that you need the exactly appropriate Force Rating and force powers to start with.

That seems like "weak sauce". Everybody else gets to have the appropriate dice pools to do what they're supposed to be able to do, but Jedi have to fake it somehow?

I'm really happy with the game so far, and I really like how the Force powers work, the amount of XP it takes to advance them, etc. It all makes sense in a galaxy where Jedi are hunted and new Force users have to figure things out on their own. But they *did* suggest with F&D you'd be able to play "full-blown Jedi", which to my mind meant you could shift the setting to any time prior to the Dark Times, and maybe start play as a late-Padawan, good enough to gain some independence from your master and the Council. If all it means is you still have to start every game as a confused-fringer-without-a-master, I'll be somewhat disappointed. Sure I can make my own rules, but some official guidance would be nice.

Is buying your way in a little to a smattering of force powers going to be so expensive that you can't really pull off the minimal feel of a Jedi without a massive beginning XP boost?

Exactly. If you had to buy what Ahsoka can do by the time she can act independently, that's a LOT of XP. Especially considering that she was well-rounded and knowledgable in a variety of areas in addition to her force skills.

Force skills: lots of Enhance, some Move, a bit of Mind Trick, some Foresee, lots of Sense...and definitely a FR of 2 or 3. Plus she's teaching other teens older than herself about government corruption, etc...not something to hold a class and articulate on without a solid background.

The Jedi *are* better. Period. That's why there were only 10000 of them in a galaxy of trillions. The only way to accurately represent that inherent superiority in the game is through XP. If you have to spend XP on the Force at chargen, you end up with uneducated ineffective hand-wavers...or you're stuck playing a child, who constantly needs her master's accompaniment. The Council wouldn't give missions to children, or allow them to associate with some random band. They have to be capable of independence or it's going to feel forced...(no pun intended).

You can have a character concept that the mechanics have to grow into. This is an issue with every gaming system.

If I want to start play as a Jedi Knight - trained from infancy in the Jedi Temple or from a Jedi in hiding from the Empire - that should be fine story/fluff wise if it fits the story the table wants to have.

This doesn't mean that you need the exactly appropriate Force Rating and force powers to start with.

That seems like "weak sauce". Everybody else gets to have the appropriate dice pools to do what they're supposed to be able to do, but Jedi have to fake it somehow?

I'm really happy with the game so far, and I really like how the Force powers work, the amount of XP it takes to advance them, etc. It all makes sense in a galaxy where Jedi are hunted and new Force users have to figure things out on their own. But they *did* suggest with F&D you'd be able to play "full-blown Jedi", which to my mind meant you could shift the setting to any time prior to the Dark Times, and maybe start play as a late-Padawan, good enough to gain some independence from your master and the Council. If all it means is you still have to start every game as a confused-fringer-without-a-master, I'll be somewhat disappointed. Sure I can make my own rules, but some official guidance would be nice.

I don't see why a starting Jedi character can't form appropriate dice pools like everyone else.

But you've got to manage your expectations for a starting character.

This is really a system independent phenomenon. In every Star Wars system if you wanted to start play as a Jedi Knight you could not fully realize that concept mechanically at character creation.

For example - in SAGA - you could create a 1st level Jedi with some force powers, training in the force, the ability to use a lightsaber and the beginnings of some specialization. All the basic pieces are there. No - you're not as powerful as Ahsoka but you can play your character as effectively as others at the table and it feels like a Jedi.

In this scenario I don't see why F&D can't allow for the same thing: you can be as good with a lightsaber (a very powerful weapon) as most anyone else at the table is with their weapon. You can have some ability to use the force.

In every other game system you're many sessions of play away from recreating mechanically the Ahsoka you describe.

When I play SAGA I don't feel like with a 1st level character I'm playing some 12 year old Jedi who needs constant oversight.

That's largely a story element. It's also why the GM scales the difficulty of the game to the players capabilities.

And the same is true for non-Jedi character concepts. Lets say you want to start play as a seasoned Mandalorian warrior. Well, your starting character is not going to reflect that mechanically. But your starting character is going to be able to do stuff that a starting character should do. Maybe if you have a more advanced concept for a starting character - like Mandalorian or Jedi Knight or Scion of a Royal Family - you may need to hand waive or narratively explain some mechanical deficiencies until you get the XP. Maybe your Jedi isn't busting out all of his force power awesomeness because they are trying to be low key or are trying to rely less on potent uses of the force for a time as part of training, maybe the Mandalorian had some of his equipment destroyed and he's piecing things together again, maybe the Scion has been cut off from the family fortune until amends are made...

And I also hope that F&D offers first class starting options for Jedi instead of pushing it into secondary and tertiary specializations.

Force unleashed has a PC group consisting of Darth Vaders Secret Apprentice, a blinded former Jedi and a Droid designed to train and test the apprentice in the Jedi Arts by using holographics to assume the forms of famous Jedi at one point.

Force unleashed II sucked, but you could have a party consisting of four clones of Starkiller who find themselves on their own and must find a place in the galaxy.

Rebels has two Jedi in the starting PC line up. If they spring the captured Jedi master from the imperial prison and then the inquisitor sees the light and switches side that's a full 4 PC team.

Or you could play a team of Inquisitor Jerrec, Inquisitor Tremaine and the Inquisitor from Rebels as they hunt Jedi for the Empire.

Or maybe the new apprentices of an insane Fallen Jedi who has trained them as Jedi ninja assassins and sends them out to take revenge on the Empire in ways Master Yoda most definitely would not approve of.

Additionally,

Playing a more advanced character concept at the beginning is one part enough mechanical representation to be ok at some things to get the feel for the character and one part the way the game is run.

You may only have FR: 1, ok lightsaber skill, a Talent, maybe some boosted stats, some entry level force abilities or whatever mix you want but in the game the GM is free to have your character treated in a manner consistent with your character concept. They can scale challenges. They can have NPC's who acknowledge your concept. And the other players at the table.

Look at Obi-wan Kenobi in A New Hope. What did he do? Mind tricked his way past a stormtrooper patrol. Took out two mooks in a bar with a lightsaber. Arranged transport to Alderaan. Started teaching a farm boy about the force. Snuck his way through the death star and turned off a tractor beam. Got into a lightsaber fight with The Villain and let himself be killed.

None of which is really out of line with what a starting character might accomplish. And Obi-wan Kenobi was a Jedi Master who was on the Jedi Council.

No, you're not the Obi-wan Kenobi - yet - which takes on a bunch of battle droids, defeats a Sith Apprentice, defeats General Grievous, takes on the toughest Bounty Hunter in the galaxy, etc. But the GM shouldn't be throwing you in the way of stuff way way over your head.

When I play SAGA I don't feel like with a 1st level character I'm playing some 12 year old Jedi who needs constant oversight.

That's largely a story element. It's also why the GM scales the difficulty of the game to the players capabilities.

Meh. We'll have to agree to disagree. I can understand people not wanting their characters overshadowed by Jedi, which is why the "Equal XP" is necessary. But I don't buy the "story element" part...it's almost (...barely...with a stretch...) feasible in this system because the power curve is flatter, but not in Saga.

None of which is really out of line with what a starting character might accomplish. And Obi-wan Kenobi was a Jedi Master who was on the Jedi Council.

Sorry, I shouldn't be rude but I find this just silly. Obi-wan had a purpose for playing under the radar, it doesn't mean every game has to incorporate that. The campaign (GM and player) would have to be super specific about this, and every campaign would have to have this element in order to work. But the main problem is no other class would have to suffer this kind of cramped shoehorning.

Not really sure why people are having a problem with balanced starting characters.

In EoE, a starting character won't be Han Solo right out of the gate. An Alliance pilot won't be Wedge Antilles.

And in F&D, you won't be a Jedi master or anything yet.

If you really want more experienced characters, the GM can start them with more XP. I can understand the need for players to want to be the main heroes of the setting, and that's fine. But that XP boost should be across the board, not just given to Jedi characters.

(I did this in AoR, because the players wanted to play hardened war veterans, not recruits fresh off the boat... It works fine as long as everyone starts with the same amount)

But that XP boost should be across the board, not just given to Jedi characters.

Very much agree, I just think if you want to play a starting Jedi who is independent of their master and the Council they will require more XP up front.

None of which is really out of line with what a starting character might accomplish. And Obi-wan Kenobi was a Jedi Master who was on the Jedi Council.

Sorry, I shouldn't be rude but I find this just silly. Obi-wan had a purpose for playing under the radar, it doesn't mean every game has to incorporate that. The campaign (GM and player) would have to be super specific about this, and every campaign would have to have this element in order to work. But the main problem is no other class would have to suffer this kind of cramped shoehorning.

I don't think you're being rude. This is a friendly discussion...

Like I said, you can't realize a lot of character concepts at the start. Boba Fett, powerful politician, Mandalorian Warrior, Lando, Han, etc.

Part of it is that Obi-wan had a purpose for playing under the radar (and I don't see why the beginning of a campaign couldn't incorporate a reason for a Jedi character to do the same) but another is that the GM scales the adventure to the capabilities of the group and you play your character using the mechanical strengths you have ignoring the mechanical holes in your character concept.

Say your starting Jedi character is decent with a lightsaber and can do some mind trick. Those are things you can do so you do them - focus on what you can do and wait for the rest to be filled in.

I can see where this would be frustrating - when according to the character concept you should be able to jump up on the top of the building and pursue the fleeing Villain but you can't mechanically so you don't and maybe that breaks immersion and sours the feel of the character. That's part of the challenge in playing any "advanced" character concept at the beginning. You'd face the same frustrations if your concept was "best bounty hunter in the galaxy".

And certainly this hand waiving and narrative explanation and adventure scaling only goes so far - if there are too many holes in your mechanical abilities then you don't ever really feel like you're playing the character concept. But it *seems* to me a starting Jedi character should be able to cover enough mechanical bases to make it work.

And we may also have differences in expectation of what power level a Jedi Padawan/Knight/Master is mechanically in the game.

I find direct comparisons with movie characters troublesome because they don't translate well into game mechanics when thinking about power level:

When Order 66 hits most of the Jedi we saw die on screen were taken out by two minion squads of clone troopers or less (even some masters). But there are other instances where Jedi do amazing things or have a wide variety of abilities that will not be reflected in a starting character.

So, in other words, just like a move character's power is mostly derived as a function of plot and story needs (and not some mechanically consistent system in the background) so too can narrative shore up a character concept in a game.

Very much agree, I just think if you want to play a starting Jedi who is independent of their master and the Council they will require more XP up front.

Agreed, whafrog - assuming there even is a master and Council in the F&D set-up. I kinda get the feeling that the PCs are supposed to be the first students of some new order, some kind of budding post-Jedi thing.

But yes; if you want a seasoned adventurer, good at what he does, you'll need to start out with a few hundred XP at least. Starting characters are kinda weak in this game, it assumes almost raw novices. If you want your core competencies right at the start, the GM will have to give out more starting XP and assume the PCs have been doing their thing for a while.

It depends on the concept the GM and players want - is this your first day on the job, or have you been doing this for a while now with a reputation to match? Are you trying to tell the tale of the 'little guys' in the SW universe, or are your PCs intended to be the major heroes of the setting?

If you really want more experienced characters, the GM can start them with more XP. I can understand the need for players to want to be the main heroes of the setting, and that's fine. But that XP boost should be across the board, not just given to Jedi characters.

That kinda makes getting to play an awesome Jedi a privilege you have to persuade the GM to give you instead of being a developer given right.

And I find the character generation system and the core mechanic are the two parts of a system that consistently survive in to play, so convincing a GM to house rule the chargen system before the game even starts is hard.

beyond that, systems tend to work better at lower levels, and also all the adventures and supplementary material is likely to support a campaign using default style characters.

Erik (I can call you Erik, right? You can call me 'Marcy'), playing an awesome anything is a GM privilege if you're starting out.

You want to begin play as a kickass Jedi, or a hotshot Ace pilot, or a super Smuggler, then you will need the GM to play that kind of game. In EoE, you start out as Greedo, not Boba Fett. If your GM wants you to be the best right from the start, they will give you more starting XP to do that.

It's no different from starting D&D at level 5, or 10, or whatever. Or having the option to generate 'Prime Runners' in Shadowrun. It depends on what story the GM is trying to tell. My players want to be the heroes of the setting, they want to play powerful and experienced characters right away, so that's what we do.

It's no better or worse than starting out with normal PCs and focusing on the 'small picture' rather than being Big **** Heroes.

beyond that, systems tend to work better at lower levels, and also all the adventures and supplementary material is likely to support a campaign using default style characters.

... which is why most GMs probably won't want their players hurling four ATATs into space right off the bat...

Try to understand; by default, Jedi are NOT going to be more powerful than soldiers, or smugglers, or anything else. FFG really want characters to be balanced here; they've learned things from the WH40K games.

If a GM wants everyone to be 1st level, then you will play a Jedi newbie alongside the soldier recruit, the just-out-of-college engineer and the smuggler on his very first con job.

If the GM kills off the movie heroes and you're their replacements, then you can all start off at 10th level and be as awesome as you wish.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be advocating the Jedi should start off at level 10, and everyone else at level 1.

beyond that, systems tend to work better at lower levels, and also all the adventures and supplementary material is likely to support a campaign using default style characters.

... which is why most GMs probably won't want their players hurling four ATATs into space right off the bat...

I think we can get a decent argument going about whether starting F&D characters should have lightsabers.

I say yes, obviously.

I think you guys need to manage your expectations. Do not expect to make more powerful force users out of the gate than what you can make in Edge or Age. Keep in mind the intent is to be able to make fully compatible starting characters.
So you will be able to make a starting party with Edge, Age and F&D characters that will be of the same power level. That is what FFG has been saying from the beginning. Will you be able to make much more powerful force using characters? yes. But on the same token Cad Bane gave the Jedi a run for their money. So expect non force users of the same XP to like Cad Bane be able to give a force user a run for their money.

Ahsoka Tano has a lot of XP under her belt.

I think we can get a decent argument going about whether starting F&D characters should have lightsabers.

I say yes, obviously.

Good question.

I can see pros and cons. They are (obviously) very iconic... but they are also way beyond the budget of any starting character from the other two games. Now, assuming that balance will remain the same... I'm guessing not.

(In story terms, didn't a Jedi kind of have to earn or even make his lightsaber?)

Now, a lightsaber clocks in at a cool 10K credits. So I'd say a starting Jedi would only have one if the Bounty Hunter started with 10k credits to spend on armour, weapon upgrades, etc.

(and doesn't that depend on your Force tradition anyway? Did they all use glowsticks? In our games, the Imperial Hands and Alliance Emergents would sooner eat their vibroswords than use the weapons of their hated enemies...)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be advocating the Jedi should start off at level 10, and everyone else at level 1.

He'll no. But I'd do think that a Jedi game should spend more time worrying about being a good Jedi game that it does worrying about people playing a smuggler game think of it.