And you know... if your GM wants to let you start with more XP and a lightsaber that is fine. Not sure why some people want the baseline to be over the top. It is easy to ramp up. it is harder to ramp down.

The question is what is over the top.

Is a lightsaber at character creation over the top?

What if it's not as powerful as the lightsaber listed in the other two core books?

It's my contention that a Jedi career that doesn't provide you with a lightsaber of some sort is not giving you one of the essential parts of the character. And the game doesn't have to be unbalanced by doing so.

Personally I could see a Talent which bestows a lightsaber, something like Create Lightsaber. I think DM or DarthGM (?) had something along these lines in their homebrew Jedi specs. I don't think regular mechanics or anyone with the Mechanics skill should be able to build or modify lightsabers without taking such a talent or somesuch special ability. Each lightsaber seems to be a fairly personal thing for each Jedi or Sith. The talent could allow for the character to make a mechanics check to create a lightsaber for that character. As an added benefit the lightsaber could gain the Superior quality only when used by that character.

Having a character start with a lightsaber could be as simple as giving enough starting XP to get the talent if they so choose. Beyong that characters could start with a vibrosword or a traing saber (a new melee weapon or a lighsaber set to stun only without the breach quality) before getting to the point of gaining an actual lightsaber.

Yeah, I had a "Build Lightsaber" talent in the early versions of my Ways of the Force fan supplement. Mostly as I didn't want to delve into "making rolls to build a lightsaber" at the time. However, I've since updated things so that a Jedi Initiate with the Jedi Training talent has the know-how to build a lightsaber, and can make a Discipline check (along with spending 2000 credits to get the necessary parts) at a Daunting difficulty to do so (also takes a week, but the PC can rush it if they don't mind accepting some Challenge dice on the roll). Of course, under my current approach, anyone else can learn how to build a lightsaber, but the Jedi Initiate gets that know-how as part of their training; for other folks they've got to seek out that knowledge, which can be an adventure in and of itself (and was for my PC, whose only Force-sensitive spec is Force Emergent). Luke never bothered prior to RotJ as he already had a lightsaber, and didn't really need to focus on constructing a new one until after the Bespin debacle. I remember reading a bit of EU related to Shadows of the Empire where he took a lot of time checking and triple-checking his work during the process of building his own lightsaber, even going so far to have Artoo stay a safe distance away in case he'd royally botched the job and ended up blowing himself up.

It could very well be that when it comes to the Jedi specializations that FFG could take a similar tack, either a specific talent to let a PC build a lightsaber without any sort of roll or that at a certain threshold the PC is considered to have that knowledge and thus can go about building a lightsaber. That being said, if FFG did opt to go for the "buy this talent, and you've got a lightsaber," that could be acceptable, particularly if it's a Row 2 talent that's not connected to any Row 1 talents, as it allows a PC to start with a lightsaber if they really want one, but they've got to spend XP to do so, which is XP that's not being spent on purchasing/upgrading Force powers or skills.

Staring the game with a big XP boost to make more veteran characters is a perfectly fine option.

Though it's not clearly the best option when you have a mix of character concepts at the table.

Someone may want to play the novice pilot fresh from the school while someone else wants to play the grizzled soldier.

In this situation starting all the characters out as novices mechanically works well.

I'd also add that the sense of character development from novice to hero is largely a matter of the story. Certainly mechanical progression plays an important role but the story plays a bigger role in my opinion.

Is a lightsaber at character creation over the top?

Clearly.

Personally I could see a Talent which bestows a lightsaber, something like Create Lightsaber. I think DM or DarthGM (?) had something along these lines in their homebrew Jedi specs. I don't think regular mechanics or anyone with the Mechanics skill should be able to build or modify lightsabers without taking such a talent or somesuch special ability. Each lightsaber seems to be a fairly personal thing for each Jedi or Sith. The talent could allow for the character to make a mechanics check to create a lightsaber for that character. As an added benefit the lightsaber could gain the Superior quality only when used by that character.

Having a character start with a lightsaber could be as simple as giving enough starting XP to get the talent if they so choose. Beyong that characters could start with a vibrosword or a traing saber (a new melee weapon or a lighsaber set to stun only without the breach quality) before getting to the point of gaining an actual lightsaber.

Yeah, I had a "Build Lightsaber" talent in the early versions of my Ways of the Force fan supplement. Mostly as I didn't want to delve into "making rolls to build a lightsaber" at the time. However, I've since updated things so that a Jedi Initiate with the Jedi Training talent has the know-how to build a lightsaber, and can make a Discipline check (along with spending 2000 credits to get the necessary parts) at a Daunting difficulty to do so (also takes a week, but the PC can rush it if they don't mind accepting some Challenge dice on the roll). Of course, under my current approach, anyone else can learn how to build a lightsaber, but the Jedi Initiate gets that know-how as part of their training; for other folks they've got to seek out that knowledge, which can be an adventure in and of itself (and was for my PC, whose only Force-sensitive spec is Force Emergent). Luke never bothered prior to RotJ as he already had a lightsaber, and didn't really need to focus on constructing a new one until after the Bespin debacle. I remember reading a bit of EU related to Shadows of the Empire where he took a lot of time checking and triple-checking his work during the process of building his own lightsaber, even going so far to have Artoo stay a safe distance away in case he'd royally botched the job and ended up blowing himself up.

It could very well be that when it comes to the Jedi specializations that FFG could take a similar tack, either a specific talent to let a PC build a lightsaber without any sort of roll or that at a certain threshold the PC is considered to have that knowledge and thus can go about building a lightsaber. That being said, if FFG did opt to go for the "buy this talent, and you've got a lightsaber," that could be acceptable, particularly if it's a Row 2 talent that's not connected to any Row 1 talents, as it allows a PC to start with a lightsaber if they really want one, but they've got to spend XP to do so, which is XP that's not being spent on purchasing/upgrading Force powers or skills.

I could see a talent that upgrades your lightsaber but a talent merely to get one or merely to be able to build one seems like it breaks the "rule" of a lower tier talent that's a must-have that everyone will take because it's that essential.

Is a lightsaber at character creation over the top?

Clearly.

Even a weaker version?

If so, yes. Enjoyment is immoral. You need to beat yourself with knotted ropes until the fun goes away.

Maybe PCs can start with a plastic toy lightsaber, but to balance it their player has to smash one of their fingers with a hammer every time the PC turns it on.

4 more days.............4 more days..............it will happen................I can make it.......................

How about a system where a player has to burn themselves with a cigarette to prove their commitment to the Jedi Path every time they want to roll a force dice?

I still don't get why you have a problem with d20 Jedi starting with a lightsaber.

It wasn't a particularly powerful weapon - it was balanced.

If the devs decide to provide a less powerful lightsaber at character creation would you still have an objection?

Is your objection with game balance or do you have a setting reason to want to deny "starting" characters a lightsaber?

I disagree with assertions such as "a lightsaber is a fundamental piece of equipment for novice jedi padawans and should be granted as starting gear according to RAW". I disagree with such assertions primarily as a matter of flavor, and secondarily as a matter of balance. I have stated this previously in this thread here and here .

And I don't have a problem with it; I have preference against it.

I would prefer the balance point be set low to allow a GM to more easily run the game he would prefer to run. Do you have "problem" with that? or do you have a "problem" playing a Jedi character without a lightsaber?

The quotes around the word "problem" are there to draw attention to the fact that it's probably not the best word to use to describe your feelings about those situations, in parallel to the way that it's certainly not the word I would use to describe how I feel about your point of view.

Anyway, I do not aim to "deny" my players what they should be granted. If the RAW states that starting Jedi characters get lightsabers, then I will do what I can to make that work in my campaign should I be privileged enough to run one. It's not my preference, but it's very likely a moot point because in all likelihood, the books have been printed and the die cast. Jay Little and all the developers at FFG who've worked on the game had to make this decision months ago.

At this point, I'm simply trying to make my opinion understood. I'm not trying to convince anyone that it's correct.

If anyone sees my opinion as a problem, well... that's their problem, not mine.

or do you have a "problem" playing a Jedi character without a lightsaber?

I don't know about you but I ain't getting any younger, and am coming to really resent having my time wasted.

I still don't get why you have a problem with d20 Jedi starting with a lightsaber.

It wasn't a particularly powerful weapon - it was balanced.

If the devs decide to provide a less powerful lightsaber at character creation would you still have an objection?

Is your objection with game balance or do you have a setting reason to want to deny "starting" characters a lightsaber?

I disagree with assertions such as "a lightsaber is a fundamental piece of equipment for novice jedi padawans and should be granted as starting gear according to RAW". I disagree with such assertions primarily as a matter of flavor, and secondarily as a matter of balance. I have stated this previously in this thread here and here .

And I don't have a problem with it; I have preference against it.

I would prefer the balance point be set low to allow a GM to more easily run the game he would prefer to run. Do you have "problem" with that? or do you have a "problem" playing a Jedi character without a lightsaber?

The quotes around the word "problem" are there to draw attention to the fact that it's probably not the best word to use to describe your feelings about those situations, in parallel to the way that it's certainly not the word I would use to describe how I feel about your point of view.

Anyway, I do not aim to "deny" my players what they should be granted. If the RAW states that starting Jedi characters get lightsabers, then I will do what I can to make that work in my campaign should I be privileged enough to run one. It's not my preference, but it's very likely a moot point because in all likelihood, the books have been printed and the die cast. Jay Little and all the developers at FFG who've worked on the game had to make this decision months ago.

At this point, I'm simply trying to make my opinion understood. I'm not trying to convince anyone that it's correct.

If anyone sees my opinion as a problem, well... that's their problem, not mine.

And I wasn't trying to convince you either - I am/was trying to understand your point of view.

I'm not sure what significance the word "problem" has in your mind compared to preference - I wasn't suggesting FFG kick down your door and make you play the game a certain way. But if preference is a word you feel is better situated and not as strong then I'm fine with that.

I agree that it's easier to power up a game than power it down so my preference is not far from yours in this regard - at least generally. I also think that a game should offer a few essentials to starting characters so that they have some minimal sense of "completeness" so that enough of the pieces are there in some form that you feel like you have a character that can function in the archetype you chose.

We disagree about how essential a lightsaber is in this regard. From my reading of the setting a lightsaber is essential to a functioning Jedi out in the world doing things. Luke got one to start his training. Younglings had them when being trained in the Jedi Temple, etc. I can appreciate it that you want your players to gain an appreciation for the philosophical side of being a Jedi before getting a lightsaber but to me this seems like a very narrow character concept for the rules to treat as the default.

And yes, the decision has likely already been made so arguing too strenuously about this is not productive.

How about a system where a player has to burn themselves with a cigarette to prove their commitment to the Jedi Path every time they want to roll a force dice?

That would would be Emo-Sith, probably not condoned by the order.

I really don't think there is anything more to say about power levels and what is "appropriate." It's all been said, and everyone has made their case. Nothing that is said will change what is in the actual Beta (or anyone else's mind).

What I want to know is, what kinds of stories do you want to play in that involve a party of Jedi/Force Users? What are the adventures and campaigns that you would run with this game?

I've always liked the idea of an Order 66 survivor acting as a mentor, and gathering the PCs to reestablish the Jedi Order. The problem is that the mentor has had to do some terrible things to survive the dark times, has flirted with the Dark Side, and now believes that the Jedi's failure was in not taking control. If they more forcefully guided the Republic, Palpatine would never have been able to take over, and peace would reign (under the watchful eye of a strong, militant Jedi Order). Over time, it is clear that the mentor is willing to do terrible things to see this new order come to pass (for the greater good, of course).

The party, of course, realizes this and has to make a call as to whether they want to stay to fulfill this vision, or if they believe their is another way. If they leave, they not only have to dodge the Empire, but also this rogue group, now staffed with their "replacements."

"Additionally, a force adept can choose one of three options at creation. They can choose to start with a lightsaber, they can start with a Holocron, or they can start with 20 extra XP"

Not locking those alternatives in stone, but it seems likely that a jedi's lightsaber will either be a talent, or character creation gift similar to a smuggler's ship or a rebels access to rebel assets.

I reckon the game will come with a pair of Force & Destiny branded pliers, and every time one of the players says the word Jedi they have to pull out one of their teeth.

"Additionally, a force adept can choose one of three options at creation. They can choose to start with a lightsaber, they can start with a Holocron, or they can start with 20 extra XP"

Not locking those alternatives in stone, but it seems likely that a jedi's lightsaber will either be a talent, or character creation gift similar to a smuggler's ship or a rebels access to rebel assets.

Is that an actual quote from an official source?

Sounds intriguing.

I don't know about you but I ain't getting any younger, and am coming to really resent having my time wasted.

Ironically, a thought that is likely shared by everyone who has to wade through posts directed to or from you.

I don't know about you but I ain't getting any younger, and am coming to really resent having my time wasted.

Ironically, a thought that is likely shared by everyone who has to wade through posts directed to or from you.

Just put him on ignore and you will be happy. I just chuckle at his posts as I see him as the court jester around here. Especially his latest Jedi/lightsaber spank bank videos. He doesn't play the RPG, nor will he, and he is just looking to get a rise out of people.

And you know... if your GM wants to let you start with more XP and a lightsaber that is fine. Not sure why some people want the baseline to be over the top. It is easy to ramp up. it is harder to ramp down.

The question is what is over the top.

Is a lightsaber at character creation over the top?

What if it's not as powerful as the lightsaber listed in the other two core books?

It's my contention that a Jedi career that doesn't provide you with a lightsaber of some sort is not giving you one of the essential parts of the character. And the game doesn't have to be unbalanced by doing so.

It is worth 10k credits and is one of the most powerful weapons in the game. Is easily added to a character if the GM chooses. Harder to take away if given to a PC so I am inclined to say yes.

Personally I could see a Talent which bestows a lightsaber, something like Create Lightsaber. I think DM or DarthGM (?) had something along these lines in their homebrew Jedi specs. I don't think regular mechanics or anyone with the Mechanics skill should be able to build or modify lightsabers without taking such a talent or somesuch special ability. Each lightsaber seems to be a fairly personal thing for each Jedi or Sith. The talent could allow for the character to make a mechanics check to create a lightsaber for that character. As an added benefit the lightsaber could gain the Superior quality only when used by that character.

Having a character start with a lightsaber could be as simple as giving enough starting XP to get the talent if they so choose. Beyong that characters could start with a vibrosword or a traing saber (a new melee weapon or a lighsaber set to stun only without the breach quality) before getting to the point of gaining an actual lightsaber.

Oh and Erik I found something that may help you play if you are interested .

I would honestly rather not see that as an option. All this looks like is a one time, empty calories talent that serves no use. Talents should provide a recurring effect to the player, not be used to handwave money away. Furthermore, making some special Mechanics limit or otherwise making some special requirement turns Jedi and lightsabers into special snowflakes when they really don't need to be. This would take a huge dump on any technically focused character who was built with the intention of building a lightsaber when the time came, simply to meet some skewed demand to make lightsabers artificially harder to get.

While I'd rather not see a dice game to make them like in d20, I equally do not want to see special exception rules surrounding one single item. Because we really don't need this to get that complicated. And when you look at precedent, that kind of ruling doesn't line up with anything else in the game, so why should FFG start now?

From my perspective as a GM, another reason I would like to see the starting point for characters in F&D balanced "low" is that it's much much easier to increase the power level from a lower set starting point, than it is to decrease the power level from a higher set starting point.

If F&D is tuned to where starting characters are relatively powerful, GMs that want to run games like I've described above are put behind the 8-ball because they have to take away from what's published to do so. It can also lead to feelings of resentment on the side of players if they see it as the GM 'taking away their toys'.

Contrast that situation to one where the published material has more humble begins for F&D characters. GMs that want higher powered Jedi/Force users to start can handout more XP or gear at the start.

And that's really all they have to do.

Balancing to a lower starting power level (this includes not lightsabers to begin with) is more permissive to a wider variety of gaming styles than balancing to a higher power level.

IMO, WEG went the former route, WotC went the latter route, and in this case, the WEG system was superior for it.

The shining clarity of this is blinding. Thank you for making this statement. It's always easier to scale things up that tone them down. It's always easier to increase the challenges the party is facing than to have to escalate things because the characters are more powerful than anything you can throw at them.

"Additionally, a force adept can choose one of three options at creation. They can choose to start with a lightsaber, they can start with a Holocron, or they can start with 20 extra XP"

Not locking those alternatives in stone, but it seems likely that a jedi's lightsaber will either be a talent, or character creation gift similar to a smuggler's ship or a rebels access to rebel assets.

But this ignores pages of discussion that were made on this topic. A smuggler's ship or rebel assets are group assets , not individual equipment . Your option provides individual equipment/XP . It also doesn't address the reality that not every character in F&D will likely be a Force user, and thus two of the three options are completely irrelevant or out of place to any non-Force user (with a holocron being little more than a narrative item that is incomparable to a lightsaber in mechanical terms). This is a common misconception about F&D, dating back to the original announcement. I expect to see more Princess Leias and Garm Bel Iblis' than Yodas and Lukes.

I would honestly rather not see that as an option. All this looks like is a one time, empty calories talent that serves no use. Talents should provide a recurring effect to the player, not be used to handwave money away. Furthermore, making some special Mechanics limit or otherwise making some special requirement turns Jedi and lightsabers into special snowflakes when they really don't need to be. This would take a huge dump on any technically focused character who was built with the intention of building a lightsaber when the time came, simply to meet some skewed demand to make lightsabers artificially harder to get.

While I'd rather not see a dice game to make them like in d20, I equally do not want to see special exception rules surrounding one single item. Because we really don't need this to get that complicated. And when you look at precedent, that kind of ruling doesn't line up with anything else in the game, so why should FFG start

I don't think you understand. How are you supposed to prevent someone having fun playing a Jedi if they have a lightsaber?

And you know... if your GM wants to let you start with more XP and a lightsaber that is fine. Not sure why some people want the baseline to be over the top. It is easy to ramp up. it is harder to ramp down.

The question is what is over the top.

Is a lightsaber at character creation over the top?

What if it's not as powerful as the lightsaber listed in the other two core books?

It's my contention that a Jedi career that doesn't provide you with a lightsaber of some sort is not giving you one of the essential parts of the character. And the game doesn't have to be unbalanced by doing so.

It is worth 10k credits and is one of the most powerful weapons in the game. Is easily added to a character if the GM chooses. Harder to take away if given to a PC so I am inclined to say yes.

You didn't answer my question. (Not that you are obliged to)

4 more days.............4 more days..............it will happen................I can make it.......................

I've been saying this all day. In the immortal words of Jedi Master Squarepants. "I'm ready"

The shining clarity of this is blinding. Thank you for making this statement. It's always easier to scale things up that tone them down. It's always easier to increase the challenges the party is facing than to have to escalate things because the characters are more powerful than anything you can throw at them.

Well... AoR assumes all the characters are at least nominally associated with the Rebellion, and EotE pretty much assumed every character was, uhm, shall we say "on the edge" of civilization?

I think it'll be pretty safe to expect F&D to assume characters will be expected to be force users of some ilk.

Just a quick note on this: Have you seen the quartermaster's "Sound Investments" talent? Hands out 100 credits per rank per session. It's recurring, but IMO, it does kinda handwave away money, so there's some precedent for it. It's off topic, but this talent concerns me (I saw a similar talent get horridly abused in my Saga game).