I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of all the fun being had.

As for a mechanical means of "checks and balances" on Force users in Force and Destiny, we might see something akin to a dark side meter, if only to correspond with the tidbit in the chapter on the Force in both the EotE and AoR core rulebooks that properly trained Force users (of which the Exile and Emergent don't really quality) that there would be long-term consequences for drawing upon the dark side.

But the main "check and balance" we've already got, in the form of Force user PCs having to spend their XP to purchase and improve the various Force powers, which is XP that the other players are spending to increase skills, purchase talents, and pick up further specializations. The method is similar to what WEG used, in that Force users started out "weak" but used their XP to get better, but the difference is that in FFG's system, the muggles have more things to gain from their XP than just skill ranks.

I'll admit to be skeptical in the early days of this system if that method of balance would work (seen far too many cases in the WEG system where it didn't and the concept of "linear warriors, quadratic wizards" was in full effect), but based upon the campaign I'm in where I'm playing a Force-user, so far it's holding up, and we've accrued about 250 XP each. Most of the other PCs have picked up Dedication and have two or three ranks in their key skills. My character on the other hand doesn't have more than one rank in any of his trained skills (and most of those are his starting skills), and while I've picked up Force Rating 2, I've purchased less than half the talents in the Emergent spec, with a substantial chunk of my XP going into Force powers (Sense, Move, Enhance, and dabbling in Foresee). And given that I don't rely extensively on my Force powers (aside from Sense's defensive Control Upgrade), that generally makes my character a lot less potent than the others. putting Valin into the "willfully weak" category I suppose. But then, he's trying to be a Jedi (even has the lightsaber, which I've used in a total of three encounters over the several fights we've gotten into since he built it), and thus practices restraint with his powers. He's called himself a Jedi, but most of the group was pretty skeptical of that claim... at least until the most recent session where I figured taking on a Hutt crime lord in his den was a good time to start cutting loose, but that's the exception rather than the rule, and it took a lot of XP to reach even that point.

So yeah, power fantasies of starting Force and Destiny PCs being able to pull off the kind of crap that Vader's Secret Princess did in the Force Unleashed games are likely going to be just that, power fantasies. Jedi career or not, if you want your F&D PC to become a badass, you're going to have to earn it just the same as an EotE and AoR PC does. And thus, the system already has the means towards restraining Force user PCs from dominating the game right away. As i stated earlier in the thread, I strongly suspect the only "extra perk" that the Force user careers will enjoy at character creation is that their related specializations will offer Force Rating 1 in addition to the bonus career skills that all career-linked specializations offer.

So, you can show up to a game for three hours a week for two years in the hope of one day getting a lightsaber, or you can go play The Force Unleashed right now.

Decisions decisions...

Force Unleashed sucked tho

Force Unleashed sucked tho

Clearly I liked it, but if it isn't to your taste you can probably found your own studio and make a AAA video game that is more your thing and play it and still be done while Mr Morningfire is waiting patiently at his table to get to do something interesting.

Force Unleashed sucked tho

It was okay for what it was. An over-the-top video game that focused on letting the player destroy the environment and plow through bad guys.

Of course, the Force Unleashed didn't give Vader's Secret Princess all the coolest toys right away either, as the character had to use accumulated XP to unlock improved effects. And he was still ranked as being weaker than Vader or the Emperor in terms of power.

And for the nay-sayers, like everyone's least favorite troll/threadcrapper ErikB, I can attest that you can create a very capable Force user in a surprisingly short amount of time (about 10 sessions earning roughly 20 XP per session average). And Maelora's got a PC that's focused exclusively on Move and is quite the combat powerhouse if her posts are anything to go by, and somehow I doubt said PC has been played for more than two years.

So, you can show up to a game for three hours a week for two years in the hope of one day getting a lightsaber, or you can go play The Force Unleashed right now.

So, you can show up to a game for three hours a week for two years in the hope of one day getting a lightsaber, or you can go play The Force Unleashed right now.

Off you go then, Erik.

This is a forum to discuss FFG's Star Wars RPG, not indulge your overpowered fantasies.

I've sparred with Donovan before, but he deserves waaaay more respect as a gamer than you ever will.

He's a troll, pure and simple. Best to just completely ignore him and focus on the intelligent discussions.

Seriously though, how many hours of play do people think F&D players should have to sit through before they get their lightsabers?

Personally I could see a Talent which bestows a lightsaber, something like Create Lightsaber. I think DM or DarthGM (?) had something along these lines in their homebrew Jedi specs. I don't think regular mechanics or anyone with the Mechanics skill should be able to build or modify lightsabers without taking such a talent or somesuch special ability. Each lightsaber seems to be a fairly personal thing for each Jedi or Sith. The talent could allow for the character to make a mechanics check to create a lightsaber for that character. As an added benefit the lightsaber could gain the Superior quality only when used by that character.

Having a character start with a lightsaber could be as simple as giving enough starting XP to get the talent if they so choose. Beyong that characters could start with a vibrosword or a traing saber (a new melee weapon or a lighsaber set to stun only without the breach quality) before getting to the point of gaining an actual lightsaber.

Oh and Erik I found something that may help you play if you are interested .

Honest answer is that it depends on the campaign and the character. The books will cover the "proper" way to handle it, and if something else is more appropriate then GMs will do that.

The first FU was ok. Good graphics and art direction, a passable story, but the gameplay was repetitive and I remember Felicia's platforming sections being dreadful. Gets bonus points for not being TFU2

He's a troll, pure and simple. Best to just completely ignore him and focus on the intelligent discussions.

I know... I shouldn't let him push my buttons

Well said Dono.

I agree that good vs evil is a core part of Star Wars.

And I also agree that F&D will be balanced in the way you describe (though as I've said before I think some sort of lightsaber will be made available to starting Jedi characters).

I also agree about what makes a Jedi a Jedi - my main point was that the essential outlook on life and the Force that a Jedi has is primarily an RP aspect of the game but the other essential trappings of a Jedi - lightsaber, force powers, etc - are largely mechanical aspects of the game (though they do have role play implications).

To me, the discipline and philosophy (even restraint) a Jedi has devoted themselves to is not a "balancing" factor mechanics-wise but it's a key feature of playing the character.

And for me the whole package is essential. A "Jedi" without use of the force to help others and be wise or a lightsaber to defend against injustice is lacking something essential, just like a "Jedi" without the moral code is also not a "Jedi".

(Meanwhile, elsewhere, Fun is happening...)

http://youtu.be/ETR4a9XG5NU

In my group I have 2 Force Users, a Smuggler Exile and a Marauder Exile. Oh and the only one in the group with a lightsaber, a Mandalorian Wardroid (who stole it off a Hand who was investigating a high ranking agent, which the crew was sent in to retrieve/rescue.) The droid player has taken a 20 point obligation (hunted by the hand) for having it, and has actually only used it once. The bigger problem for the crew right now is the fact that the Marauder used his Force powers against the Hand and now they have both an Inquisitor and the Hand after them, but I am getting off on a tangent. I have not seen any kind of OP with either of the Force Users, or the droid with the lightsaber. I knew there was something here when the powergamer I have in my group opted NOT to take a Force-user and instead focused on anything with the Autofire quality, which I might add, his dice are VERY unkind to him, as he has only activated the autofire a handful of times, and most of those were against an Assassin Droid with soak:8). My group and I are looking forward to F&D, and discussion around the table seems to favor the idea that they will keep with the vague titled classes. There may be one with the Jedi label, but it wont be anymore powerful than anything else that they have put out. In regards to lightsabers, I'm not overly concerned because, in one battle the crew had, the droid was going to give the marauder the saber, but he opted to go with his modded vibroax instead.

Perhaps more importantly, how many hours of play should F&D players have to sit through to earn the right to have something like this happen?:-

Lookit those awful munchkins having fun they haven't earned. Awful!

From my perspective as a GM, another reason I would like to see the starting point for characters in F&D balanced "low" is that it's much much easier to increase the power level from a lower set starting point, than it is to decrease the power level from a higher set starting point.

If F&D is tuned to where starting characters are relatively powerful, GMs that want to run games like I've described above are put behind the 8-ball because they have to take away from what's published to do so. It can also lead to feelings of resentment on the side of players if they see it as the GM 'taking away their toys'.

Contrast that situation to one where the published material has more humble begins for F&D characters. GMs that want higher powered Jedi/Force users to start can handout more XP or gear at the start.

And that's really all they have to do.

Balancing to a lower starting power level (this includes not lightsabers to begin with) is more permissive to a wider variety of gaming styles than balancing to a higher power level.

IMO, WEG went the former route, WotC went the latter route, and in this case, the WEG system was superior for it.

I still say people are assigning way too much concern to the OP issue of Lightsabers. All the same techniques and pitfalls that can be used to impede a Marauder that have been mentioned on this forum apply to Jedi as well, and it is simply too easy for a GM to rein in a character with a melee weapon and combat style. Force users will probably be able to toss their sabers like Vader, but it's not likely to be the ideal use of one.

Force powers, particularly Move, introduce all the OP creep imo. Juggling silhouette 4 vehicles and a Breach 1 weapon are not on the same street power level wise. In addition, Breach 1 is great, but functionally how many opponents have 10 Soak? A modestly appointed Vibro-axe is going to have Pierce 5, so by that point the majority of opponents have no soak or maybe 1 left to use anyway, the point being the total benefit of Breach 1 is not going to even be used for probably 90% of targets.

The damage on Lightsabers only rises with Successes, while the Marauder again can take a very modestly modded Vibro-axe with a Brawn 5, and match the base damage output of a Lightsaber. Even out the gate the Marauder can be at base damage 8 with the axe and Pierce 3, which functionally given the realistic Soak values starting characters are going to face is more than enough. So given the Lightsaber doesn't really in practical mechanical terms provide all that much benefit I just don't see the concern.

From my perspective as a GM, another reason I would like to see the starting point for characters in F&D balanced "low" is that it's much much easier to increase the power level from a lower set starting point, than it is to decrease the power level from a higher set starting point.

If F&D is tuned to where starting characters are relatively powerful, GMs that want to run games like I've described above are put behind the 8-ball because they have to take away from what's published to do so. It can also lead to feelings of resentment on the side of players if they see it as the GM 'taking away their toys'.

Contrast that situation to one where the published material has more humble begins for F&D characters. GMs that want higher powered Jedi/Force users to start can handout more XP or gear at the start.

And that's really all they have to do.

Balancing to a lower starting power level (this includes not lightsabers to begin with) is more permissive to a wider variety of gaming styles than balancing to a higher power level.

IMO, WEG went the former route, WotC went the latter route, and in this case, the WEG system was superior for it.

I agree in principle.

But I do think starting characters should also begin with access to the Talents and equipment and and other things that are essential for the archetype being represented.

For Jedi I think this includes FR:1 as part of their starting specialization and a lightsaber of some sort - it doesn't have to be the lightsaber as exists in EotE or AoR.

[Redacted for brevity, linked for reference]

As I stated before, my concern is not for mechanical/balance reasons alone. See below.

I agree in principle.

But I do think starting characters should also begin with access to the Talents and equipment and and other things that are essential for the archetype being represented.

For Jedi I think this includes FR:1 as part of their starting specialization and a lightsaber of some sort - it doesn't have to be the lightsaber as exists in EotE or AoR.

FR 1 is reasonable for all Jedi & force users to have, seeing as how they can't use the force without it.

Lightsabers are not.

We're clearly not going to agree on this, and I'm alright with that.

Novice Jedi receiving lightsabers began (and, hopefully, will end) with the WotC game line. And this debateably due to the game focusing on a time period prior to the dark times. The only character template in WEG that started with a lightsaber was the "failed Jedi", and he also got a dark side point at character creation.

PS. DM, I checked: the "Young Jedi" template didn't start with a lightsaber, just 1 die in each force skill. (2nd Ed, Revised, 1996)

This one is... remarkably good, considering.

[Redacted for brevity, linked for reference]

As I stated before, my concern is not for mechanical/balance reasons alone. See below.

I agree in principle.

But I do think starting characters should also begin with access to the Talents and equipment and and other things that are essential for the archetype being represented.

For Jedi I think this includes FR:1 as part of their starting specialization and a lightsaber of some sort - it doesn't have to be the lightsaber as exists in EotE or AoR.

FR 1 is reasonable for all Jedi & force users to have, seeing as how they can't use the force without it.

Lightsabers are not.

We're clearly not going to agree on this, and I'm alright with that.

Novice Jedi receiving lightsabers began (and, hopefully, will end) with the WotC game line. And this debateably due to the game focusing on a time period prior to the dark times. The only character template in WEG that started with a lightsaber was the "failed Jedi", and he also got a dark side point at character creation.

PS. DM, I checked: the "Young Jedi" template didn't start with a lightsaber, just 1 die in each force skill. (2nd Ed, Revised, 1996)

I still don't get why you have a problem with d20 Jedi starting with a lightsaber.

It wasn't a particularly powerful weapon - it was balanced.

If the devs decide to provide a less powerful lightsaber at character creation would you still have an objection?

Is your objection with game balance or do you have a setting reason to want to deny "starting" characters a lightsaber?

And if you go with the movies, novice Jedi had lightsabers.

Even Luke was handed one before he knew about the force (yes, it was a family heirloom but still...) and lightsaber training was his first introduction to the force.

Also, I don't like the paradigm that a starting character must be a novice in concept. I've played/ran many games in various systems where a lot of PCs where not novices in concept even though they were mechanically.

Seriously though, how many hours of play do people think F&D players should have to sit through before they get their lightsabers?

You don't play the RPG anyway, so what's it to you?

It might come as a shock, but there are plenty folks that are far more interested in having their characters grow from being comparative nobodies to Big **** Heroes over the course of play. Some of us like to have our characters earn their status as the biggest bad-asses on the block, as it makes getting to that point all the more satisfying.

That and LethalDose brings up an excellent point. It's much easier to have PCs start as "low powered" as the baseline and then allow GMs to increase the starting point of characters if they wish. If a GM really wants their players to be super-powerful right away, they can hand their players 500 XP and simply let them pick what gear they want. There's actually a thread over in the EotE section that discusses the option of starting PCs with more XP than the default.

In that same thread, Maelora mentioned that D&D 4e started off the PCs fairly powerful, with a bunch of hit points and numerous ways to quickly recover them in combat as a contrast to prior editions where a 1st level PC (especially a mage/wizard/sorcerer) was very squishy to the point of needing to be worried if they were attacked by a house cat, and one good enemy crit could drop even a 1st level fighter or barbarian. To the point that a common house rule in D&D3e/Pathfinder that I've seen is to have PCs start out at 3rd level so that they're not so fragile. Oddly, one of the complaints about 4e was that the "growth period" from fresh-faced rookie to competent adventurer wasn't there anymore, which I guess just goes to show that the bigger the fanbase, the more likely you're going to upset somebody no matter what you do. Now 5e has the rookie stage, and the PCs are fairly fragile (I've heard reports of one or more PCs dying in the first couple encounters of the Starter Kit adventure), but PCs do grow out if it pretty quickly; judging from the Starter Kit adventure, the first session or two should be enough to get a group to 2nd level, and then the next couple sessions getting them to 3rd level, after which the level progression slows down for a bit.

FFG has obviously opted to go with letting the PCs start as rookiees as the default for this system, and with all the talk from the design team about these three games being fully compatible, it stands to reason that PCs in Force and Destiny are going to start as rookies as well. But again, if the GM wants to skip the rookiee phase, they can simply dole out additional XP to the PCs up front. I believe it was HappyDaze that said that based on his experiences, the first couple hundred XP a character earns is spent more to "flesh out" a character concept. I know that FFG has said that for their GenCon modules, a person can bring a pre-gen, with an additional 100 XP to build the character, and from having played in a few of those modules at last year's GenCon, the pregens offered did fell pretty well "fleshed out" in terms of their respective niches.

tl,dr: The default for Force and Destiny is going to be "weak" characters the same as AoR and EotE, but there's nothing to stop the GM from starting the campaign at a higher level of power if that's what they and the players want.

Lookit those awful munchkins having fun they haven't earned. Awful!

Not sure what you're trying to prove. What do live action duels have to do with roleplaying?

And you know... if your GM wants to let you start with more XP and a lightsaber that is fine. Not sure why some people want the baseline to be over the top. It is easy to ramp up. it is harder to ramp down.