So the CRB talks about a basic Brawl attack having Knockdown and Disorient 1 qualities. It also notes that these qualities apply to Brawl weapons, unless the weapon supercedes them (e.g. Brass Knuckles have Disorient 3, not 1).

Would these still apply with things like the Trandoshan's claws? The lower crit rating (3 v. 5) and extra damage seem to use a bladed weapon type, but the Disorient quality would seemingly be from blunt impact. Your thoughts?

You use default values/effects unless a new one is laid out.

What page are you looking at? I just looked at 120 and 153, I didn't see anything giving a basic brawl attack those qualities?

I see no reason why it wouldn't apply. Getting a nasty gash across the face is going to be an awful shock to the system and is best represented by the Disorient quality on a clawed attack. The Trandoshan species give up a lot of XP and even some Strain Threshold (as compared to a Human) for this and several other benefits.

Its listed under unarmed attacks in the CRB. I dont have my book handy for the page #.

What page are you looking at? I just looked at 120 and 153, I didn't see anything giving a basic brawl attack those qualities?

It's on page 211, second column, first paragraph.

What page are you looking at? I just looked at 120 and 153, I didn't see anything giving a basic brawl attack those qualities?

It's on page 211, second column, first paragraph.

Completely missed that. Good to know.

Claws are not used in nature the way humans use a sword.

• Cats use their claws to hook into the skin and get a good grip so they can go for the throat.
• Birds of prey use their claws to grab smaller prey and keep it from escaping, and also in plunging attacks to rip out the blood vessels of larger prey. Video of an eagle killing a deer:
• Most other animals use claws for traction, not for attacking.

I see Trandoshians using their claws more like a cat does. He grabs hold of the skin of your face and slams your cranium into the nearest hard surface. If you try to get away too vigorously you flay yourself. So disorient and knockdown make sense in this scenario.

I treat the claws as a Brawl weapon, rather than a direct enhancement to unarmed combat. This basically means the claws do not stack with other Brawl weapons (like Brass Knuckles) or with the Pressure Point talent.

"When a Trandoshan makes Brawl checks to deal damage to an opponent, he deals +1 Damage and has a Critical Rating of 3."

Yeah, strictly reading the rules I view that as an enhancement to all Brawl attacks, unarmed or not.

... so then, what should happen were a Trandoshan to use a brawl weapon that has a Crit rating of less than 3 ?

It's not super game-breaking either way, but if a Trandoshan at my table uses Pressure Point and goes to inflict a critical injury, he's gonna be pretty limited in what he can do with it. Strain damage means no death, no maiming, no bleeding, etc so that really just leaves the +1 damage. Not a big deal, but a nice kicker.

... so then, what should happen were a Trandoshan to use a brawl weapon that has a Crit rating of less than 3 ?

It'd be lowered to that rating.

... so then, what should happen were a Trandoshan to use a brawl weapon that has a Crit rating of less than 3 ?

I think the Trandosian has an Order of the Stick moment and says, "By RAW I can't get better than a three crit rating, so I'll just use brass knuckles rather than Vibro-Knucklers."

... so then, what should happen were a Trandoshan to use a brawl weapon that has a Crit rating of less than 3 ?

It'd be lowered to that rating.

So you allow cherry picking? He gets the damage bonus, but doesn't have to abide by the corresponding crit rating...

It's not super game-breaking either way, but if a Trandoshan at my table uses Pressure Point and goes to inflict a critical injury, he's gonna be pretty limited in what he can do with it. Strain damage means no death, no maiming, no bleeding, etc so that really just leaves the +1 damage. Not a big deal, but a nice kicker.

There's a whole sidebar (I believe, AFB) in the CRB that discusses how to reconcile generating crits with a Stun attack.

... so then, what should happen were a Trandoshan to use a brawl weapon that has a Crit rating of less than 3 ?

It'd be lowered to that rating.

So you allow cherry picking? He gets the damage bonus, but doesn't have to abide by the corresponding crit rating...

This is how I read the talent Claws:

A straight Brawl check without a weapon (as a Human) is just whatever your Brawn is and has a Crit of 5? Advantage. A Trandoshan would get Brawn +1 and have a Crit rating of 3, because even without a weapon, he's got these big ass talons. If a Trandoshan is using a Brawling weapon, then he is no longer using his claws and would just use the stats for the weapon. I believe that is the RAI even if the RAW isn't so clear cut.

I believe that is the RAI even if the RAW isn't so clear cut.

Plenty of us here agree. But not everyone it would seem...

It's not super game-breaking either way, but if a Trandoshan at my table uses Pressure Point and goes to inflict a critical injury, he's gonna be pretty limited in what he can do with it. Strain damage means no death, no maiming, no bleeding, etc so that really just leaves the +1 damage. Not a big deal, but a nice kicker.

There's a whole sidebar (I believe, AFB) in the CRB that discusses how to reconcile generating crits with a Stun attack.

Yes, there is...I kinda summed it up in my post At least, that was the intent. Page 218, sidebar.

... so then, what should happen were a Trandoshan to use a brawl weapon that has a Crit rating of less than 3 ?

It'd be lowered to that rating.

So you allow cherry picking? He gets the damage bonus, but doesn't have to abide by the corresponding crit rating...

Just trying to get a clear sense of the rules. Reading the rules for Trandoshans' Claws (page 51) and Unarmed Combat (page 211, last paragraph especially), the intent of the rules is to cherry-pick qualities and Critical Ratings. It's pretty clear-cut to me.

Just trying to get a clear sense of the rules. Reading the rules for Trandoshans' Claws (page 51) and Unarmed Combat (page 211, last paragraph especially), the intent of the rules is to cherry-pick qualities and Critical Ratings. It's pretty clear-cut to me.

Yet a lot of people, myself included, somehow read it "clear-cut" completely differently. True story...

To me, RAI (honestly, the only RA$ that should really matter) is that when a Trandoshan is using his claws, he's using his claws. But when he's not, well... he's just not.

Because how/why is he benefiting from his claws while using a shock glove? Or blast knuckles? Or vam blades?

Just trying to get a clear sense of the rules. Reading the rules for Trandoshans' Claws (page 51) and Unarmed Combat (page 211, last paragraph especially), the intent of the rules is to cherry-pick qualities and Critical Ratings. It's pretty clear-cut to me.

I don't have my CRB infront of me at the moment so I'll have to check back, but I don't recall rules suggesting cherry-picking.

I read it as you use the stat block for the weapon you are attacking with. So if you are attacking with brass knuckles, you would use the stats for that weapon. If you were fighting with your claws, you would use those stats. Not sure where you are getting the impression that you should be cherry-picking rules. But by all means, provide us some text from CRB. I enjoy a critical reading.

To me, RAI (honestly, the only RA$ that should really matter)

To me, the RAW should be unambiguous as-written in the absence of errata (aka Death of the Author). RAI is a nice concept but until it's actively clarified by someone, the RAW is the published rules and should be followed (at least in a white-room scenario) even if it seems ridiculous. (This entirely ignores GM houseruling and the concept RAI, because the former varies table-to-table, and, in the absence of the author, the latter is irrelevant as "what is intended" is colored by personal perceptions).

To me, the RAW should be unambiguous as-written in the absence of errata (aka Death of the Author).

No one should expect, let alone demand, perfection while in this mortal coil. No rule book ever, in the history or ever, has been - or will be - flawless.

RAI is a nice concept but until it's actively clarified by someone, the RAW is the published rules and should be followed (at least in a white-room scenario) even if it seems ridiculous.

Absurd. To play RAW, in the face of common sense, and/or at the expense of the group's enjoyment, for the sake of nothing more than "being true to the holy word", is... is... I'm having trouble forming words to describe such a thing.

Now you've gone and done it. You broke my thought-spewer...

To me, the RAW should be unambiguous as-written in the absence of errata (aka Death of the Author).

No one should expect, let alone demand, perfection while in this mortal coil. No rule book ever, in the history or ever, has been - or will be - flawless.

That's why they put out errata or FAQs...to answer rules questions that are unambiguous in a unified manner.

To me, the RAW should be unambiguous as-written in the absence of errata (aka Death of the Author).

No one should expect, let alone demand, perfection while in this mortal coil. No rule book ever, in the history or ever, has been - or will be - flawless.

RAI is a nice concept but until it's actively clarified by someone, the RAW is the published rules and should be followed (at least in a white-room scenario) even if it seems ridiculous.

Absurd. To play RAW, in the face of common sense, and/or at the expense of the group's enjoyment, for the sake of nothing more than "being true to the holy word", is... is... I'm having trouble forming words to describe such a thing.

Look, I clearly said "in a white-room scenario." It's obvious to me that different GMs will rule it different ways and thus it's pointless to hypothesize about the ways in which they will rule it.

I look at the rules and see "makes a Brawl check to deal damage to an opponent." I don't think it'd be unreasonable to have hoped that the developers had instead written "makes an unarmed Brawl check." I also don't think it's broken for a Trandoshan to be wearing knuckles and slashing in such a way that the guy also gets cracked with the hard knuckle. Same with the shock gloves. It'd probably be different if there were differentiated damage types like in Dark Heresy, but there aren't.