There's plenty to dislike about the TIE swarm, but FFG has given out no shortage of tools to counter it. Hell, they realised a card that is pretty much an antiswarm. (Lieutenant Blount).

I've been seeing this phrase, 'the meta' being used. Could someone explain to me what that means in this context?

Metagame is the squadron-building aspect. It still means "outside game" as it does in the context you know it in, but here it refers to the squadron-building game outside of the dogfighting game.

I know the term meta-gaming, which is what the OP seems to accuse people of when they play bumpercars with their TIEs. I'm sensitive to that charge because (as I'm new), I've just figured out how to do this, but I don't like meta-gaming when I'm trying to have a dramatic experience. But by the sound of what I read on this forum, most people are attracted by the intellectual challenge of winning the game, rather than the lure of the dramatic experience.

"Blocking" actually does make sense within the universe of the game, just not in the way its portrayed on the forums. Base collisions aren't actual collisons, they're the fighters moving above and below each other. The loss of action is a result of rapidly steering your fighter out of the way to avoid hitting the other ship. Thus, a blocking TIE is deliberately flying his ship into an enemy's flight path to force them to fly evasive and distract them from what they were attempting to do. Quite hard to focus on your shot when you're rapidly rolling starboard to avoid death by suicide TIE.

Lagomorphia gives a solid definition of meta game, but I want to add that in X-Wing, and most miniatures games, it means accounting for what you expect to see in squadron builds and adjusting your list to that. My local meta has a lot of B-Wings, so I build my lists to try and account (and counter) for them more than I would a Tie Swarm.

Thanks for both of the clarifications.

The notion of a localized 'meta' is interesting. I've only recently started playing, and checking out my local scene here in Portland, OR. From my perspective, it seems that everybody has everything. I'm trying to keep my investments into the game modest, and with two core sets and an extra TIE and TIE/x1, I've got my little swarm, which I do like.

Also, maybe it's just because I'm still learning the ropes in how to fly, but it seems like managing a swarm is not the easiest thing, especially after the collision with the enemy. It does seem like a bunch of Academy pilots do well, because their movement is not impeded by the unknown maneuvers of the enemy in the coming round.

There's plenty to dislike about the TIE swarm, but FFG has given out no shortage of tools to counter it. Hell, they realised a card that is pretty much an antiswarm. (Lieutenant Blount).

Not to mention the Assault Missile.

Apart from thematic reasons, the reason I like to fly TIE swarms is the resiliency offered because my dice luck is terrible. If I loose one fighter I'm still competitive in the game much, much more than if I continually whiffed on an X-Wing. Dice luck being the only thing I can't change a TIE Swarm is really forgiving if you know how to fly and be positional with it, which I am a lot better at than rolling dice.

I'm sticking to my guns saying x wing is relatively balanced. There is no one list everyone is abusing the heck out of, as you can see by going to just about any tournament (good solid variation of lists). Not to mention being decently balanced game, FFG managed to stick to canon SW tactics stuff (ie. tie swarms) that is what the primary imperial battle plan is based off of (not considering death stars). sure there is this combo and that combo but nothing totally broken.

Honestly I could take a basic list of 4 rook x wings w/ torps and stand a decent chance against anyone's well thought up and critiqued battle proven list. which is what really makes a good game. No one has an unfair advantage, we all get to design a list of ships that we like AND the game play really comes down to skill and a bit of luck (ok I'll admit perhaps luck has a little more to do with it) but you get the idea...

I question how much the dice blur the balance perception. There are clearly better builds then others.

Its not 100 random dice luck obviously, movement is the one pure skill based portion of the game, the only reason some of my friends like to play vs more euro board games.

The fact that Paul W, won 2 tourneys in the same day speaks that skill certainly is a big portion of the game.

Yet the dice gods can severely effect the game at any time. I just wonder what is the "luck" variance of the game?

I've been flying Tie Swarms almost exclusively this competitive season. Having taken a Store Championship and multiple Top 4s, and seeing runner-up after runner-up fly Tie Swarms, it is still one of the best builds. They are absolutely exhausting to pilot, unforgiving in terms of maneuvering. Not really a build for a beginner. Also, I pray every tournament that I get a free round against dual falcons, the easiest build to beat and coincidentally to pilot.

We had a ton of Dual falcon lists @ the ohio game and both myself and my friend who were playing 3 and 4 interceptors destroyed the lists loosing only 1 or 2 ships. The Dual falcons aren't hard to beat simply because your lack of firepower.

On another note I was able to beat a swarm 2 times with my 3 interceptor 1 academy build at the event. So no, swarms aren't impossible to beat. You have to figure out how to kill them first and shut them down as well.

Wow, their has been a lot of hate thrown out against various lists, be it TIE Swarm or Double Falcons. I find the whole idea of calling a list cheeze in this game sort of off. Having played several other table top mini games, I have to say that X-wing is pretty Cheezeless.

First of most people I know who play buy just about everything, rather than jsut buying the stuff they want in their particular list. For example no X-wing player spent $400 on wood elves only to find out that it just isn't going to be able to beat their friends $400 worth of Daemons. If it turns out that one list is significantly better than another, the game is cheap enough that if you believe that you need Howelrunner to win (or B-wings or YT-1300s) or what ever you can pick them up pretty quickly. Most players have most lists available to them, and can with an investment of relativly little money play any build they can't currently fly.

However it has been my experience that the game is actually really well balance. I have no several people who brought themed lists to tournaments and did very well with them. I think Han Shoot First, TIE Swarm, and Luke, Wedge, Biggs, all pretty much started out as themed lists and them we realized how great they were after. Of course their are syndergies to be found, and ships that are better for their points than others, but these imbalances are relativly small in X-wing compared to other games. And more importantly game play plays a much more imporant part of the game than does list building.

As for the TIE swarm specifically is interesting. When the game first came out flying a bunch of TIEs was pretty much all you could do. (Unfortunatly, an all TIE advanced list never really materialized). As more ships came out the Empire got more options. Sure you can do lots of TIEs, but people (Even tournament players) want to try new things.

In the last local tournament I played in I didn't see a single TIE Swarm. But the TIE Bomber and the Shuttle had just come out. People were also learing the value of the Firespray as a really good Imperial ship.

People talk about Meta as if it is the way to currently win the game. It isn't it is just what people are doing at any given time. It is more like X-wing Fashion. I particularly like coming up with lists that are decidadedly against the meta, not because I just have to be different, but it just seems more creative if I can figure something new out, rather than just flying something tried and true by others. Of course my goal is to enjoy this great game and not to Win Win Win and need to buy plane tickets to play in a tournament that will take me away from my family for days at a time.

Nothing personal but when someone rags on the TIE Swarm and then flies Dual Falcons...they lose a lot of credibility.

Congrats on the wins though and it does sound like you had fun, which is the most important thing.

I stopped reading once the OP said that swarms were easy to play, then plays dual falcons.

Grats on your top 8. Better lucky than good sometimes.

I have to say I disagree with you. Actually, I think the opposite of your view is correct.

Playing a TIE swarm requires skill in maneuvering your ships, even if you intend to cause mass bumping. You still need to get your enemies in your TIE fighters' arcs.

Flying the YT-1300 requires no maneuvering skill what so ever to get your enemy inside your arc as you can fire 360 degrees around you. You still need to maneuver to avoid asteroids, but when you don't also need to get your enemies in your firing arc this becomes much easier than with any other ship in the game.

An inexperienced player has a much better chance at doing well with a YT-1300 (or two) than with a TIE swarm.

I don't see how our view are opposite.

So I'm trying to put together Regionals data http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/105107-2014-regionals-results/, so I am shamelessly going to ask for some help in this thread. This is what I have gathered:

Wisconsin regional context:

• Debadwolf's double falcon list went undefeated in the first 6 rounds, including beating national champ atomicboxer's classic wave one 7 ship swarm
• David Pontier's 6 ship swarm (Howl, Backstabber, Alpha x 3, Acadamy x 2) then beat Debadwolf's double Falcon in the first round of the top 8. Pontier made it to the finals and lost to another guy's 6 ship tie fighter/interceptor mashup.
• In the top 8, there were, I think, four swarms? atomicboxer's 7 ship swarm, the winner's swarm, piqsid's swarm, my bomber swarm (Howl + swarm tactics, Backstabber, Scimitar x 4).
• The other four lists were 4 B's + Advanced Sensors, a Krassis + three tie fighter build, the double falcon list, and one other list that I can't remember.
• The final four lists was 3 swarms and the krassis list (which I lost to in the first round of the top 8 - hey, Chris, if you are out there, that was a heckuva fun game :-)
• Overall list representation: LOTS of Imperial Methadone (3Bs+As) and various rebel lists, so it was a good mix.

In my opinion swarms are still the dominant build to beat. In a timed game, a double falcon can create some issues for it by hugging the corner of the board and running away from the swarm, forcing it to do stupid stuff so that the swarm player doesn't lose on time.

But that strategy loses to the untimed game :-) (which the top 8 and WI regionals was - last game finished at 3:30ish; Pointier and I pulled into Chicago around 5 am this morning!)

Thanks - mined your post to build the above summary. 2nd place must have only had one Academy Pilot, because Howl + Backstabber + Academy + 3x Alpha = 100 points.

If I might ask, what was the squad that you ran? Krassis Trelix and 3x Academy TIEs only adds up to 72 points, so I know you must have a bunch of upgrades or different pilots i there somewhere.

I'm sticking to my guns saying x wing is relatively balanced. There is no one list everyone is abusing the heck out of, as you can see by going to just about any tournament (good solid variation of lists). Not to mention being decently balanced game, FFG managed to stick to canon SW tactics stuff (ie. tie swarms) that is what the primary imperial battle plan is based off of (not considering death stars). sure there is this combo and that combo but nothing totally broken.

Honestly I could take a basic list of 4 rook x wings w/ torps and stand a decent chance against anyone's well thought up and critiqued battle proven list. which is what really makes a good game. No one has an unfair advantage, we all get to design a list of ships that we like AND the game play really comes down to skill and a bit of luck (ok I'll admit perhaps luck has a little more to do with it) but you get the idea...

This would do fine against say a "Dumb Swarm" All low pilot skilled ties. Against a smart swarm it would not fair well at all. You would move first. You would not be in range to target lock. Swarm moves in and shoots. The next round you'll be to close and to dead to use your missals.

I've been flying Tie Swarms almost exclusively this competitive season. Having taken a Store Championship and multiple Top 4s, and seeing runner-up after runner-up fly Tie Swarms, it is still one of the best builds. They are absolutely exhausting to pilot, unforgiving in terms of maneuvering. Not really a build for a beginner. Also, I pray every tournament that I get a free round against dual falcons, the easiest build to beat and coincidentally to pilot.

Id be happy to play your swarm on vassel some time.

I stopped reading once the OP said that swarms were easy to play, then plays dual falcons.

Grats on your top 8. Better lucky than good sometimes.

I didn't say swarms are OP. I said Howel Runner is OP. 3 months after playing X-Wing I flew my first swarm at a tourny and took first. It wasn't even a challenge. Swarms are easy to play. There are clear levels of play skill. I seen a few people in Vassel HiLo tourny just do some amazing moves. But if you want you can just keep all your ships in a block and just do forwards, k turns, and turns. A beginner can clearly handle that. When most your ships moves first not very hard to get an action. With a lot of ships with a lot of evades the build is very forgiving.

I've been flying Tie Swarms almost exclusively this competitive season. Having taken a Store Championship and multiple Top 4s, and seeing runner-up after runner-up fly Tie Swarms, it is still one of the best builds. They are absolutely exhausting to pilot, unforgiving in terms of maneuvering. Not really a build for a beginner. Also, I pray every tournament that I get a free round against dual falcons, the easiest build to beat and coincidentally to pilot.

Id be happy to play your swarm on vassel some time.

Can we stop this thread? OP's just being a troll.

If I might ask, what was the squad that you ran? Krassis Trelix and 3x Academy TIEs only adds up to 72 points, so I know you must have a bunch of upgrades or different pilots i there somewhere.

Here was my list in the top 4

Krassis Trelix — Firespray

• Heavy Laser Cannon
• Seismic Charges
• Recon Specialist
• Slave I

"Howlrunner" — TIE Fighter

• Swarm Tactics
• Stealth Device

"Mauler Mithel" — TIE Fighter

Academy Pilot — TIE Fighter

I laughed out loud when I read the OP. Hilarious.

Wisconsin regional context:

• Debadwolf's double falcon list went undefeated in the first 6 rounds, including beating national champ atomicboxer's classic wave one 7 ship swarm
• David Pontier's 6 ship swarm (Howl, Backstabber, Alpha x 3, Acadamy x 2) then beat Debadwolf's double Falcon in the first round of the top 8. Pontier made it to the finals and lost to another guy's 6 ship tie fighter/interceptor mashup.
• In the top 8, there were, I think, four swarms? atomicboxer's 7 ship swarm, the winner's swarm, piqsid's swarm, my bomber swarm (Howl + swarm tactics, Backstabber, Scimitar x 4).
• The other four lists were 4 B's + Advanced Sensors, a Krassis + three tie fighter build, the double falcon list, and one other list that I can't remember.
• The final four lists was 3 swarms and the krassis list (which I lost to in the first round of the top 8 - hey, Chris, if you are out there, that was a heckuva fun game :-)
• Overall list representation: LOTS of Imperial Methadone (3Bs+As) and various rebel lists, so it was a good mix.

In my opinion swarms are still the dominant build to beat. In a timed game, a double falcon can create some issues for it by hugging the corner of the board and running away from the swarm, forcing it to do stupid stuff so that the swarm player doesn't lose on time.

But that strategy loses to the untimed game :-) (which the top 8 and WI regionals was - last game finished at 3:30ish; Pointier and I pulled into Chicago around 5 am this morning!)

Sozin,

Tom had chewie and two bwings with sensor jamers. Tom flew like a champ all day.

I imagine the number of players running themed squadrons on their kitchen table outnumbers the competitive scene by a great deal.

I think that's true for tourney play. Certainly true for me. I think there is a gradient here though; for example, Picasso brought his fun 3 ship rebel all star X-wing list to the regionals yesterday and very nearly made the top 8 cut. He told me he was tired of playing by the numbers and wanted to mix it up and have more fun in tournament play, even if it meant more risk.

Good attitude, but I have a harder time doing that when there is crack acrylic on the line!

I imagine the number of players running themed squadrons on their kitchen table outnumbers the competitive scene by a great deal.

I think that's true for tourney play. Certainly true for me. I think there is a gradient here though; for example, Picasso brought his fun 3 ship rebel all star X-wing list to the regionals yesterday and very nearly made the top 8 cut. He told me he was tired of playing by the numbers and wanted to mix it up and have more fun in tournament play, even if it meant more risk.

Good attitude, but I have a harder time doing that when there is crack acrylic on the line!

Thanks. I'm trying to get back to what Xwing used to be for me. Fun. I had a great time yesterday even if my rounds were scored wrong all day and not discovered to the end. Lol. I had a ridiculously high strength of schedule.

Hats of to my renegades we had four in the top 16. I was also told that us Milwaukee players are a bunch of sandbaggers.

Tom and Chris both flew like champs and played their asses off to make the cut.

Sozin,

Tom had chewie and two bwings with sensor jamers. Tom flew like a champ all day.

Right, duh, of course! Sorry Tom :-)

Picasso, do you know what upgrades Tom had on Chewie? Chewie plus 2 blues with jammers is 94 points. Thanks

I imagine the number of players running themed squadrons on their kitchen table outnumbers the competitive scene by a great deal.

I think that's true for tourney play. Certainly true for me. I think there is a gradient here though; for example, Picasso brought his fun 3 ship rebel all star X-wing list to the regionals yesterday and very nearly made the top 8 cut. He told me he was tired of playing by the numbers and wanted to mix it up and have more fun in tournament play, even if it meant more risk.

Good attitude, but I have a harder time doing that when there is crack acrylic on the line!

I imagine the number of players running themed squadrons on their kitchen table outnumbers the competitive scene by a great deal.

I think that's true for tourney play. Certainly true for me. I think there is a gradient here though; for example, Picasso brought his fun 3 ship rebel all star X-wing list to the regionals yesterday and very nearly made the top 8 cut. He told me he was tired of playing by the numbers and wanted to mix it up and have more fun in tournament play, even if it meant more risk.

Good attitude, but I have a harder time doing that when there is crack acrylic on the line!

Thanks. I'm trying to get back to what Xwing used to be for me. Fun. I had a great time yesterday even if my rounds were scored wrong all day and not discovered to the end. Lol. I had a ridiculously high strength of schedule.

Hats of to my renegades we had four in the top 16. I was also told that us Milwaukee players are a bunch of sandbaggers.

Tom and Chris both flew like champs and played their asses off to make the cut

brewtown! =)

I've been flying Tie Swarms almost exclusively this competitive season. Having taken a Store Championship and multiple Top 4s, and seeing runner-up after runner-up fly Tie Swarms, it is still one of the best builds. They are absolutely exhausting to pilot, unforgiving in terms of maneuvering. Not really a build for a beginner. Also, I pray every tournament that I get a free round against dual falcons, the easiest build to beat and coincidentally to pilot.

Id be happy to play your swarm on vassel some time.

*yawn*

What area do you hail from? Top 4s in what?

If you fly swarms exclusively it would make for a great test.

Or are you afraid. I sense much fear in you.