Ok, me and The Rip-Off played a few games using the polar deck posted for benchmarking. I have to say it was like watching a train wreck. To say Polar didn't matter would be an understatement: in the games played (I was using normal decks, Graham was trying his hand at Polar) it felt like playing solitaire: the polar deck managed to fire exactly 0 polar events, and 1 commitment trick (which, I must add, did make me use a card).

Now, I have to say I held a record of 0 wins against Graham, and he is one of the most talented players and deckbuilders I played against, but he didn't manage to get Polars to work.

Game one: Polar [The_King_in_Yellow] VS CthulhuSynd [Roberto Carioli]

[14:21:55] Roberto Carioli scrive:anyway, you start
[14:21:56] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:k
[14:21:59] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:it wont help
[14:22:24] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:ok i have 8 cards
[14:22:29] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:I dont know what they do
[14:22:34] Roberto Carioli scrive:
[14:22:52] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:uhm
[14:22:56] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:.....................
[14:23:18] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:the irony is
[14:23:26] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:as long as you commit your guys
[14:23:33] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:I can never play a polar event
[14:23:39] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:and cant get them into the disc
[14:23:45] Roberto Carioli scrive:
[14:23:48] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:which makes all the other polar cards useless
[14:23:55] Roberto Carioli scrive:I hadn't notices that
[14:23:57] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:so right now, 40% of my hand is useless

So, here's the first real trouble with polar events. The more you have in your deck, the less useful they become: while a SacOfferings can be played at any time to generate an effect, Polars have such strict conditions to be used they are more or less dead weight in your hand. So, you need to hold on Polars in the chance a situation where they can be played happens, but you have to defend yourself from the other deck's characters and keep the deadwood a Polar card is in your hand.

[14:23:59] Roberto Carioli scrive:I hadn't noticed that
[14:24:22] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:ok
[14:24:26] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:I READY!
[14:24:30] Roberto Carioli scrive:me too
[14:25:06] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:done
[14:25:10] Roberto Carioli scrive:ok
[14:26:02] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:im pretty done
[14:26:54] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:OK
[14:27:03] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:Id like to make a point
[14:27:07] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:Im holding hypothermia
[14:27:13] Roberto Carioli scrive:ok
[14:27:35] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:it will be atleast 3 turns or more till I can waste a card to get ONE polar in my graveyard
[14:28:00] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:so on T3 MAYBE I can pay 3 to would a char
[14:28:12] Roberto Carioli scrive:eh

Now, Hypothermia, the keystone of polar events... completely useless: while it was drawn twice it's high cost, low yield (1-2 wounds) and restrictive conditions made it a dead weight. At this point we had resourced. I was sitting [C] - [C] - and he was [H] - [H] - [H]

First turn Graham played 2x Performance Artists and 1x Demon Lover. I must comment how a good play this was, since the Artists protected one each other against a sneaky T1 Nodens (not to mention they would have made me waste a turn for accelleration) and Demon Lover restriced me to at most 1 success token on t1.

On my turn I resourced [CC] - [C] - , played both Ancient Gold (attached to the big domain) and Snake Totem, and triggered Gold.

[14:28:48] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:oh oh oh oh wait!
[14:28:53] Roberto Carioli scrive:oh, btw, do yu waste Performance artist on the supports
[14:28:59] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:I can perf arm u
[14:29:06] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:yeah
[14:29:06] Roberto Carioli scrive:ok
[14:29:15] Roberto Carioli scrive:both?
[14:29:15] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:Ill get one
[14:29:19] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:the gold
[14:29:26] Roberto Carioli scrive:ok
[14:29:30] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:if it doesnt stop u, im dead

Again good play by Graham, since only Ancient Gold would have enabled a Nodens reset, and the other Artist was left there for Stars Are Right Nodens prevention. I just Snake'd Star Spawn Priest into play.

[14:30:04] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:that should be game
[14:30:15] Roberto Carioli scrive:hmmm, pretty much

Now, Polar, in all their might, cannot remove a Star Spawn Priest, which is hardly a threat to other decks.

[14:31:47] Roberto Carioli scrive:ok, I'll say pass
[14:31:50] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:ok
[14:31:53] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:Im happy
[14:32:04] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:hahahahaha
[14:32:09] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:I cant stop laughing
[14:32:20] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:the draws are hysterical
[14:33:17] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:you have to assume i have beneathe the mire cause i got a two-open domain
[14:33:18] Roberto Carioli scrive:ok, now with 4 chars you cannot even commit one
[14:33:30] Roberto Carioli scrive:right
[14:33:38] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:pl. ill attack
[14:33:56] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:TOKENS BABY!

The following turn TRO played Patron and Performance Artist number 3. Again, in the whole deck, there is not a single character which can do anything about Star Spawn Priest. He committed to three stories, I insaned one Artist.

[14:34:06] Roberto Carioli scrive:shame on me
[14:34:12] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:yeah
[14:34:21] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:but i got a good start
[14:34:25] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:...
[14:34:28] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:just no finish
[14:34:31] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:yt
[14:35:33] Roberto Carioli scrive:op?
[14:35:38] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:nah
[14:35:38] Roberto Carioli scrive:yeah
[14:35:50] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:I need to conserve suicide blockers

I resourced again [CCC] - [C] -

[14:36:27] Roberto Carioli scrive:sac on the artist
[14:36:35] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:****...

Nodens hit the board undisturbed.

[14:37:12] Roberto Carioli scrive:let's clear
[14:37:15] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:ugh

Followed by a Snake'd Anarchist.

[14:38:03] Roberto Carioli scrive:well, I'm in story
[14:38:12] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:sadly....this deck is the goal for nate
[14:38:18] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:i cant do anything
[14:38:26] Roberto Carioli scrive:pretty much
[14:38:49] Roberto Carioli scrive:yt

Both characters committed unopposed.

[14:39:08] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:notice the utter waste of space the polar cards are
[14:39:13] Roberto Carioli scrive:yes
[14:39:31] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:cant do anything
[14:39:46] Roberto Carioli scrive:a few more useful chars and I could have been slowed a lot
[14:39:53] Roberto Carioli scrive:mt?
[14:39:56] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:yup
[14:40:16] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:nothin i can do so just take stories
[14:41:05] Roberto Carioli scrive:yt
[14:41:06] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:dam...my hard earned tokens

And here's another Polar failure: nothing he drew could do anything to deal with Nodens and Anarchist (I think he drew Polar Fog and another Polar something). At this point the game was pretty much over. Pulp Writer appeared, and managed to have the Anarchist go bonkers before getting eaten by a Deep One Rising, and two Repairers making a last stand before being Deep One slaughtered.

Polar review: 0 Polar Events made it into play. Hypothermia was sitting idle. The deck got out controlled with 4 removals (Nodens, SacOff, Deep One Rising and Deep One Assault). To be fair I have to say the Deep One Assault in the end could have been spared. Actually, if all Polar Events had been random 1 cost characters Polar would've had a beter survival chance.

[14:55:04] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:you might as well just throw all the polar card in the bin when you draw them
[14:55:16] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:lets try again..."I got a bad draw"!
[14:55:21] Roberto Carioli scrive:yeah
[14:55:21] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:thats all//
[14:55:24] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:
[14:56:41] Roberto Carioli scrive:Mother Khanum would destroy this deck.
[14:56:47] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:well
[14:56:52] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:strictly speaking
[14:57:03] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:there are about 50 cards that if in play will kill this deck
[14:57:12] Roberto Carioli scrive:
[14:57:28] Roberto Carioli scrive:ok, it doesn't get killed by:
[14:57:37] Roberto Carioli scrive:Innsmouth trouble maker
[14:57:39] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:hmmm
[14:57:43] Roberto Carioli scrive:Knight of the Void
[14:57:45] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:or young deep one
[14:58:02] Roberto Carioli scrive:aaaaand Kitab al-Azif

On to game two

Synd vs Polar

Now, this matchup proved particulary deadly to Polar: it was a texbook t3 Syndicate win. Polar couldn't even scrape enough forces to pretend it had enough forces to deal with Synd.

[15:00:16] Roberto Carioli scrive:heads
[15:00:16] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:you can go first this time
[15:00:19] Roberto Carioli scrive:ok
[15:00:23] Roberto Carioli scrive:I't Synd
[15:01:10] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:here is the draw
[15:01:32] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:what the hell do i do with this crap?
[15:01:52] Roberto Carioli scrive:wait until t3 aaand
[15:01:57] Roberto Carioli scrive:well I don't know
[15:02:08] Roberto Carioli scrive:there has to be some tech somewhere
[15:02:09] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:Im determined to get polar mirage played
[15:02:22] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:I am going to die trying to play that card
[15:02:36] Roberto Carioli scrive:ok
[15:03:19] Roberto Carioli scrive:I'll go
[15:03:33] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:yup

Fugitive enters play: Polar has no way to deal with it until t3.

[15:04:00] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:thats prolly game
[15:04:08] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:I dont think I can stop him
[15:04:17] Roberto Carioli scrive:wait
[15:04:26] Roberto Carioli scrive:I've got a commitment trick too
[15:04:30] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:uh ph
[15:04:32] Roberto Carioli scrive:and I want to play it
[15:04:34] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:oh
[15:04:52] Roberto Carioli scrive:taaaaa dah

Clover Club Bouncer hits the table: laughter ensues.

[15:05:07] Roberto Carioli scrive:yt
[15:05:14] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:ugh
[15:05:24] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:here is my draw
[15:05:45] Roberto Carioli scrive:I never thought Bouncer + Fugitive = board control

And that's it: Bouncer + Fugitive can deal with any character this deck puts out, while the opposite is false.

[15:05:47] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:only now do i appreciate just how random polar fog is
[15:06:09] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:lets face it.,....we both WAY overestimated polar
[15:06:18] Roberto Carioli scrive:yes
[15:06:27] Roberto Carioli scrive:I agree
[15:06:39] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:woo hoo!
[15:06:42] Roberto Carioli scrive:****!!!

Pulp Writer enters play.

[15:06:45] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:another useless char

But cannot deal with any Willpower Combat character.

[15:06:48] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:yt
[15:06:59] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:oh man
[15:07:06] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:oh man
[15:07:10] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:I got a combo
[15:07:14] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:that is stupid
[15:08:06] Roberto Carioli scrive:aaand
[15:08:15] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:uh no
[15:08:20] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:2 cards I cant stop

Mentor Enters play

[15:08:28] Roberto Carioli scrive:cdw exhaust
[15:08:44] Roberto Carioli scrive:like this
[15:08:50] Roberto Carioli scrive:and I'll suffer disgrace
[15:08:51] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:at this point i howl as im holding polar stuff that cant even be played
[15:09:09] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:wow look how useful tyhis card is
[15:09:17] Roberto Carioli scrive:yeah
[15:09:25] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:cant do anything

Graham was talking about Polar Mirage, whose uselessness proved itself against Fugi + Mentor. BTW, the game was practically done at this point, it was just a matter of seeing if it would have ended t3 or t4.

[15:09:37] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:yeah right
[15:10:03] Roberto Carioli scrive:yt
[15:10:24] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:oh man
[15:10:28] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:I got the fin penguin!
[15:10:35] Roberto Carioli scrive:yeah!
[15:10:51] Roberto Carioli scrive:now youhave THE draw engine
[15:10:56] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:wow that changes everything
[15:11:09] Roberto Carioli scrive:and you were thinking Hastur had no draw ability
[15:11:13] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:yeah
[15:11:19] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:I was clearly wrong
[15:11:23] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:yt
[15:11:33] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:Im gonna "combo" you
[15:11:38] Roberto Carioli scrive:I'll exhaust cdw
[15:11:44] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:heh
[15:12:32] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:I can pulp cdw to make you insane!
[15:12:42] Roberto Carioli scrive:yeah
[15:12:47] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:the pointlessness of it is hilarius
[15:12:58] Roberto Carioli scrive:****, that's awesome
[15:13:04] Roberto Carioli scrive:I am laughing out
[15:13:20] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:wow this is bad
[15:13:37] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:there is NO card in this deck that can deal with 2 cards you got out

Graham did the only thing possible, waiting to insane the poor Bouncer. My turn began.

[15:14:10] Roberto Carioli scrive:ok
[15:14:25] Roberto Carioli scrive:ITG!
[15:14:30] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:uh no
[15:14:35] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:my commital cards!
[15:15:42] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:ironically....the cards you can get are such a waste, your betting off keeping your domain...
[15:16:11] Roberto Carioli scrive:I'll say: Mirage (so you won't play it), Penguin (to deny you the chance to draw another mirage), aaaaand Inmate.

Before you ask "did In the Gutter matter?" No, it didn't for none of the cards mentioned would have had any effect

[15:16:25] Roberto Carioli scrive:plus I'll know your tricks! AH!
[15:16:25] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:****
[15:16:39] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:ill shoot cdw!
[15:16:45] Roberto Carioli scrive:ok
[15:16:46] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:with pulp and crazy bouncer
[15:16:48] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:woo hoo!

Triggerman enters play, completing the trifecta

[15:18:45] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:there is nothing i can do
[15:18:50] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:you win
[15:18:54] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:by slaughter
[15:19:21] Roberto Carioli scrive:no, no tricks?
[15:19:24] Roberto Carioli scrive:****
[15:19:25] The_King_In_Yellow scrive:no

Polar Review: number of polar events played 0. The deck has no way to deal with willpower or, to say the truth, well, anything remotely cost efficient.

Now, the Synd Cthulhu and the Syndicate decks:

[CthulhuSynd]

3x Yig, Father of Snakes

3x Ravager from the Deep

3x Sacrificial Offerings
3x Forgotten Isle
3x Deep One Assault

2x Devil's Hop Yard, Bleak and Blasted
3x Ancient Gold

3x Anarchist (EE)
3x The Seventh House on the Left
3x Nodens, Potent and Archaic

2x Expatriate Reporter</name>
2x Deep One Rising

2x Bestial Shoggoth

2x Guardian Shoggoth

2x Lord of the Silver Twiligt

2x Carl Stanford, Deathless Fanatic

2x Snake Totem

2x Nosy Columnist

2x Star Spawn Priest

3x Wish for Power

[syndicate]

3x The Seventh House on the Left

3x Fugitive

3x Triggerman

3x Assistant to Dr. West

3x Mentor to Vaughn

3x Anarchist (EE)

3x In the Gutter

3x Opium Fiend

3x Street Preacher

3x Extortionist

3x Blind Medium

3x Dabbler in the Unknown

3x Clover Club Bouncer

3x Patsy

1x Granny Orne

1x Nosy Columnist

3x Hard Case

3x Syndicate Liaison

So, pardon me for asking then, but how would a "normal" Hastur deck deal with some of these things, such as the extremely efficient Syndicate willpower characters? If this Polar deck included no options at all to do so and they at least exist, then it sounds like faulty deck construction that probably needs to be tweaked. If Hastur would just normally be screwed facing those characters and have no real options, then the fault sounds like a card pool and design problem rather than a Polar event problem.

Kennon said:

Your conclusion is mostly correct. The fact that Hastur has problems dealing with efficient Syndicate willpower characters is not a "design problem" but more a "design feature" of Hastur. Hastur is the only faction that can deal with Event Cards and triggered effects in general in a consistant manner. The trade-off is that it can't let Willpowered characters go insane. If it would, why have factions at all? Factions are as much defined by their strength as well their weaknesses.

A polar deck might work best when combined with Agency. Having Penguins around to draw extra cards (Shotgun blasts and other removal in addition to your Polars) and having Captain George Thorfinnsen to provide extra cover fire should gain you enough defense and card advantage to push through with a few characters.

Bringer of Fire offers an additional way to deal with characters. Yeah, it's not the most efficient card, but again, this was intentionally done to not further muddy the seperation between factions.

Well, feels like my attempt do not offer enthousiastic performances ...

but I do agree on some points developped. Yes, Hastur has a feature that do not offer much efficiency when willpower hit the table. But every monothemed deck has it weakness. I don't play against single Syndicate. In this case, I would rather stop playing !

I Don't really enjoy the Bringer (must sort X2, which highly stop the development of your hand). And, my choice to mainly test Hastur's cards from MoM Edition is something that limit my options. But I had some good games for several reasons :

First, the use of polar for commiting effects is really unexpected for opponents, who must fight against this once he discover your strategy. A cool poker effect. Then, the second effects that exist gives some versatily, which is a cool thing. Plus I think that Hastur is highly underestimated. Ok; it can discard/stop effects ... but it also use some cool "commitment's stuff" like the DD Birds. And those card are really nice to play.

Some of you said that if this deck takes no options against Willpower, it seems that the deck's screwed ... And I don't agree with that ! Why being afraid of willpower as long as you can commit characters for your opponent ? You might get enough time to play something that shoot characters or use the opponent's char (hypothermia, polar mirage, antartic wind). That's what I meant when i said that this deck as huge lakes on Willpower or stuffs like this.

PRODIGEE said:

Glad you like the Polar theme, and appriciate the 'poker' elements making people hesitate to commit (or not to commit) as well as turning their own characters against them. With "can't deal with willpower" I mean mostly "can't turn willpower characters insane" - it can however steal them or kill them as well as reduce their Skill as you point out.

To use Polar well you have to rethink a lot of how strategy works, and how your meta works, and I do think you're doing a great job at figuring it out. Hastur is pretty powerfull, especially when the Meta is built around combo's - since Hastur can cancel a lot of effects, a well-made deck can go a long way at disrupting combo's, where other factions would have problems dealing with that. Polar does introduce some level of character control, though it's not meant to be as simple and efficient as Cthulhu faction cards; It is however an engine that can be very useful in the right deck and the right meta.

Kennon wrote:

So, pardon me for asking then, but how would a "normal" Hastur deck deal with some of these things, such as the extremely efficient Syndicate willpower characters?

I would not take them on the ground. Taking Hastur on the story field is pretty much suicidal.

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Kennon:

If this Polar deck included no options at all to do so and they at least exist, then it sounds like faulty deck construction that probably needs to be tweaked.

I'd rather say: if Polar effects do not matter (and they didn't even get played in the test games), they are 5-6 wasted slots. They are not meta changing. They are not game changing. They are a failed attempt.

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Kennon:

If Hastur would just normally be screwed facing those characters and have no real options, then the fault sounds like a card pool and design problem rather than a Polar event problem.

Well, new cards should get printed to change the game. I am not advocating giving a Deep One Assault to every faction, but since half of polars are Hastur's, they should help it (dunno, like giving effects which can actually fire) toward a strategy. Polar were best used as resources, in the games.

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Marius:

A polar deck might work best when combined with Agency. Having Penguins around to draw extra cards (Shotgun blasts and other removal in addition to your Polars) and having Captain George Thorfinnsen to provide extra cover fire should gain you enough defense and card advantage to push through with a few characters.

You seem to have missed the fact that 0 polars events were played (simply put there has never been the condition to play them). A free Thorfinnsen on the boards for the polar decks would have not influenced the game in any way, besides being another shootable, exhaustable chump blocker. Agency + Hastur + Polar: I can't see it making a story against any solid deck, but I will try it. And post the results.

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Prodigee:

I don't play against single Syndicate. In this case, I would rather stop playin.

The french meta evolved at a really fast pace, and the players I met yet are really really competitive.

Aren't those two a bit contradictory?

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Prodigee:

First, the use of polar for commiting effects is really unexpected for opponents, who must fight against this once he discover your strategy. A cool poker effect.

Let me restate: 0 polar events played: no psychological effect at all. Mono-Synd played like it hadn't opposition, going for the t 2,5 it aims to get. A good deck just doesn't care about Polars just as much it doesn't care about Conspiracies.

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Marius:

With "can't deal with willpower" I mean mostly "can't turn willpower characters insane" - it can however steal them or kill them as well as reduce their Skill as you point out.

It cannot wound them or exhaust them or steal them (the only way to deal with them) on a regular basis. That's enough to say it cannot deal with them on a regular basis, which means it is screwed against them, barring exceptional luck.

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Marius:

To use Polar well you have to rethink a lot of how strategy works, and how your meta works, and I do think you're doing a great job at figuring it out.

I remeber you using almost the same exact words on Conspiracy (it was like: "The power is subtle, but it is there"). Does it mean I should stack the Polars along with Conspiracies in the same pile of useless cards?

[Prodigee:

I don't play against single Syndicate. In this case, I would rather stop playin.The french meta evolved at a really fast pace, and the players I met yet are really really competitive.

Aren't those two a bit contradictory?

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Prodigee:

First, the use of polar for commiting effects is really unexpected for opponents, who must fight against this once he discover your strategy. A cool poker effect.

Let me restate: 0 polar events played: no psychological effect at all. Mono-Synd played like it hadn't opposition, going for the t 2,5 it aims to get. A good deck just doesn't care about Polars just as much it doesn't care about Conspiracies.

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1. We have a really competitive meta in Poitiers. I'm sure of this.

We have two Syndicate players, Hastur's,3 Yog, 2 Shubb-Niggurath, .... Me and my poor english meant that I would'nt play this game anymore if I only have to face Syndicate and nothing else ... But that's not the case ! "I don't play against single syndicat" means in Prodigee-really-awfull-english : "I'm lucky I can face a lot of various decks with every factions represented". Just take a look at our forum, and you'll see some decks posted recently, and you'll see...

2. Your stat mentionned you did'n play Polar...Which is really possible with the use of X3, you're totally right in that. But, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater! I did play it (a little) and had some cool games. I agree I'm not a tier-One Deck creator, but I think some combination were indeed usefull. Just use once the Feathery tricks with Polar Mirage and you'll see how to shake a little a rush strategy. In understand your mathematic point. But I don't agree to judge a card pool on just 1 game. And, in my mind, Syndycate is the strongest faction against this type of deck.

Please, tell me now we reach the X3-objective, which strategy is really unopposable. I don't see a lot though.

Carioz said:

The conditions being that "a character commits on your opponents turn" and "an opponent commits some characters, but not all characters on their turn" means that something polar is bound to happen when an opponent chooses to use their Story Phase.

Carioz said:

See the point before. Willpower Syndicate Guy generally commits to win the game, which mean you'll be exceptionally lucky most of the time against such a deck.

Carioz said:

Since you seem to loathe the Story Phase, and rather use combo decks to win, I would say that you will have a hard time enjoying these cards. This is OK, but do understand that the Story Phase and characters are supposed to be the prime win-condition of the game. Yeah, I know, some combo decks are silly good, and there is no strickt need to commit... ever... But some elements for aggro/control are put into place and well, the game is not made only for Carioz, although I know that deeply saddens you...

Marius:

The conditions being that "a character commits on your opponents turn" and "an opponent commits some characters, but not all characters on their turn" means that something polar is bound to happen when an opponent chooses to use their Story Phase.

See the point before. Willpower Syndicate Guy generally commits to win the game, which mean you'll be exceptionally lucky most of the time against such a deck.

Please, check both games. I did commit, but at no time the opponent had a chance to use polars. It might be the fates or just that Polar decks have such a low threat that you can commit all your guys and be affected by a smaller part of the events, and the events you can fire are so underpowered that a 1 cost 1 skill suicide blocker is often better.

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Marius:

Since you seem to loathe the Story Phase, and rather use combo decks to win, I would say that you will have a hard time enjoying these cards.

Which deck was combo? The mono Synd or the Chulhu Synd? I do not use combo decks most of the time, but I have to say, I like them, and I consider them pretty ingenious. This said I play mostly with Story phase bound decks, but take Combo into account. Since they exist, Story Phase decks need to have something against them.

As a side note I've tried building combo decks, as I really love the concept and the ingenuity, but I cannot manage to build a decent one for the life of me.

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Marius:

But some elements for aggro/control are put into place and well, the game is not made only for Carioz, although I know that deeply saddens you

Leaving the aggro/control aside (I have yet to see a control only deck, as any deck needs an "aggro" or "combo" winning condition), I'd like to see how Polars compare to control staples like:

SacOffs

Yig

DOA

Mentor

7th House

Shotgun Blast

Short Fuse

Forced Entry

Nodens

T-Men

The Great Old One Rises

Sky Torn Asunder

Forgotten Isle

Small Price to Pay

and I am probably forgetting some. The question is: would an Hastur deck work better adding 4-5 off faction control cards or adding 4-5 Polars. For what I've seen, off factions are better.

I am not really bothered that Cthulhu isn't designed just for me. I am saddened about the sad state the game is. I am bothered about people making claims (TEH POLARS ARE TEH UBAR!!!!) without having even benchmarked them agains common decks.

I am not to much pissed about underpowered sets, but it really looks lame when a developer's hypothesys (Conspiracies will revolution the game! Kitab al-Azif is a monstrous combo finisher!) all come untrue, for it means such developer has a really limited knowledge of the game. If Conspiracies were heralded as: "Introductory set, bringing a new fresh concept for fun decks" I wouldn't have had any beef with them (heck, the set has even 1 good hidden card -good on Ap 1 & 2 standard, that's it-). But constantly heralding a brand new powerful interesting game and changing the meta just by bannings or cycling is the epithome of design, not.

edit: wow, I did really mangle some english here.

Carioz said:

Suicide blockers don't usually draw you cards with Penguins, double as a shotgun blast with Captain, nor have an inate ability to be recurred with Real of Ice and Death.

Carioz said:

Hmmm... Okay...

Carioz said:

Which cards you mentioned are Hastur faction, and which of those cards help cancelling events? I do understand that the Polars aren't the most efficient removal cards out there, but, it's the Hastur faction, which deals mostly with triggered effects and events, not with characters directly. Your question might as well be "If DOA is so awesome, why can't it stop Historic Discovery?" - Well, that's because DOA is a Cthulhu faction card, not a Hastur faction card.

Carioz said:

Carioz said:

Conspiracies are -for the most- free effects. Yes, you do burn a card, but you'll get a free effect (destroy 2 cards, discard your opponents' hand!) for an investment of zero resources. Yes, it takes effort and 1 or 2 turns to activate it, and most certainly involves risk, but it's free, and it gives you an extra won story.

So far there have been no cycling, and just a few bannings. The rituals held the game back in ways you cannot imagine. The game is still recovering from the rituals. Their impact has been so great and warping that yes, some cards are now less powerfull then you would like them to be. The rituals, in playtest, warped the perception because noone would have liked to let the next The Rip-Off slip through.

There are a lot of factors you don't take into account: Factions, the insane powercreep of Lost Cities and Eldritch in general, the Rituals, the withering of the division of factions and well, the list goes on and on. Eric and Nate are well aware of these issues and probably working very hard to keep you happy without having to press the Great Reset Button.

Marius:

Suicide blockers don't usually draw you cards with Penguins, double as a shotgun blast with Captain, nor have an inate ability to be recurred with Real of Ice and Death.

Another time, just for the records: no Polar events were played in the games I've shown. One could have been, but it would have changed nothing. It is pretty difficult to trigger Penguins or Whalers when no Polars get into play.

The game is fast, faster than you may reckon, every action counts and every action and card counts: that's why Attachments, commitment tricks and Conspiracy are less than optimal. Now, if one is such a good player he can afford to play with 2-3 "dead" cards (i.e. Polars instead of removals, conspiracies instead of cards which do the same) more power to him, but I feel most of the time a always useful card is better than a may be useful if the stars are right one.

As for suicide blockers, I'd like to point out the following cards: Grey Dragon Isle, Tulzscha and any free recurring.

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Marius:

Hmmm... Okay...

No, please answer, was the Syndicate a combo deck or was it the Synicate Cthulhu?

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Marius:

Which cards you mentioned are Hastur faction, and which of those cards help cancelling events? I do understand that the Polars aren't the most efficient removal cards out there, but, it's the Hastur faction, which deals mostly with triggered effects and events, not with characters directly. Your question might as well be "If DOA is so awesome, why can't it stop Historic Discovery?" - Well, that's because DOA is a Cthulhu faction card, not a Hastur faction card.

4-5 off faction cards introduce an inconsistancy in resourcing and the ability to play these cards, where polars do not.

Because we know that you cannot absolutely mix factions in Cthulhu: none ever heard of a Cthulhu - Hastur decks. And Agency - Hastur are such a novelty - oh, wait, you just suggeted one-.

Another thing: 4-5 off faction cards means 12 - 15 exemplars, which is enoguh to balance a deck. Furthermore, if, as shown, Polars means dead cards in hand and off factions mean inconsistancy, at least I'll take the effective route.

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Marius:

Conspiracies are -for the most- free effects. Yes, you do burn a card, but you'll get a free effect (destroy 2 cards, discard your opponents' hand!) for an investment of zero resources. Yes, it takes effort and 1 or 2 turns to activate it, and most certainly involves risk, but it's free, and it gives you an extra won story.

Silly me! It's because they are so good they featured prominently in exactly 0 worlds decks. On a more serious note, any deck which can win while using a card for a Conspiracy is winning despite using it, not because it is using it: given the same price (1 card), any effect which happens right now is better than an effect that might happen in 2-3 turns.

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Marius:

There are a lot of factors you don't take into account: Factions, the insane powercreep of Lost Cities and Eldritch in general, the Rituals, the withering of the division of factions and well, the list goes on and on. Eric and Nate are well aware of these issues and probably working very hard to keep you happy without having to press the Great Reset Button.

There might be a lot of factors, but the answer is just the same, putting out narrow, poorly worded, un-efficient cards -sometimes with awful mistakes- and hope for the cheerleaders to spam enough "It is wonderful!!!". The poor fate of AGoT and the new backs all but scream "cycling". I do seriously hope Nate stays away from the Reset button (well, I arguably hope that he stays miles away from Cthulhu LCG too, but that isn't going to happen), but everything that happened so far screams:

a) FFG isn't interested in their pre-CCG player base

b) Rotation is coming.

You know what I really fear the most (and Nate pretty much has spelled it in an article)? That the game will be changed to shoehorn failed concept (i.e. Conspiracies, Attachments and commitment tricks) into prominence. Right now any decently built MonoC deck will just roll over these three concepts. But I fear cycling and bannings will bring them to prominence.

Carioz said:

Well, that's puzzling, really.

Carioz said:

As you claim it, the 'stars where right' a lot of times, but you didn't act on it. I know the game is fast, but you should have had some time to stabilze enough to take advantage of the situation. I really wonder what went on.

Carioz said:

GDI and Tulzscha are just as much late game cards.

Carioz said:

Well, appearantly they where as the condition "one character commits" or "some characters commit, while another didn't" didn't come up in your game at all.

Carioz said:

Ah, you meant 12 - 15 cards, not 4 -5 cards. Well, that's a huge difference...

Carioz said:

Worlds was very combo oriented this year. Hell, Masks of Nyarlathothep is long concidered the weakest set from the CCG time, and after a looooong time people started to make broken decks with it.

Carioz said:

Well, even if you're persistant in not liking Polars, at least take a look at:

Prof. Lake, Notebook Sketches - very good anti-combo tech for Misk.

Specimen Bags - A little quirky, but with a lot of potential

Cave Mouth - Giving Cthulhu even better defenses.

Penguin - Card draw for Hastur, decent stats for a H 2 coster.

Forgotten Shoggoth - An invul chara with a subtype that gained a lot of support, with an ability that helps against some combo decks.

Reawakened Elder Thing. 2 ( ! ) investigation icons in a faction that shouldn't have access to that much investigation, with a minor drawback. Again, a Monster, which is pushed greatly in the other AP.

Antarctic Yeti. More Textbox/Willpower removal, on a monster, almost an extra copy of isle...

Snow Graves - What hasn't been said about it?

Sledge Dogs - Very efficient rushers...

I would say that is pretty awesome... But hey... I'm just a cheerleader, so, wrong.

Marius:

Well, that's puzzling, really.

That's not puzzling at all: Polars are situational cards at best (I'd say useless junk but that might be a little too much underappreciation). Now situational cards aren't bad per se. Most silver bullets are in fact situational. But a situational card needs to have a tangible effect, otherwise it is just a random resource. Most Polar have no tangible effects against decks which put some pressure on the player using them.

Second trouble with Polars (which can be linked to all situational cards) is that situationals need a very good drawing engine otherwise they just clutter your deck with multiples: you need to have a situational in hand for when the situation happens, but you need it to be outside your hand for it is dead weight until that situation happens. I think a polar powered Penguin engine does not cut it.

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Marius:

As you claim it, the 'stars where right' a lot of times, but you didn't act on it. I know the game is fast, but you should have had some time to stabilze enough to take advantage of the situation. I really wonder what went on.

I might have not understood very well what you meant, but if you mean the player using Polars had lots of chances to go for the (Polar) kill, the games were played like this:

Hastur VS CthulhuSynd: No chance for Polars

Hustur VS Synd: Graham could have polar fogged (or Cruel Tempted) to have me win a different 3rd Story. (i.e. It wouldn't have mattered a bit)

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Marius:

As for suicide blockers, I'd like to point out the following cards: Grey Dragon Isle, Tulzscha and any free recurring.

GDI and Tulzscha are just as much late game cards.

Yeah, I am not contending they are good, because they are not, it is just than cycling, wounding and drawing are not confined to the Polar experience.

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Marius:

Well, appearantly they where as the condition "one character commits" or "some characters commit, while another didn't" didn't come up in your game at all.

"some characters commit, while another didn't" didn't happen.

"one character commits" did happen but, then again, Polar Fog would have not changed a thing.

Furthermore having some Polars in your deck doesn't mean you have all them in your hand, that their condition will trigger, that their effect will be beneficial or that you aren't better off using thet domain for something else.

Doing a little math: the deck had 6x3 commitment tricks on 54 cards, which gives us roughly 3,5 tricks expected at turn 3 and 4,5 at turn 4. One of those tricks could have been the 4 cost Lure neutral effect, so I am somewhat overestimating the number of playable tricks. 4,5 out of 18 possible gives us a below 1 chance of having thet right trick needed in that situation.

So, to sum it up:

1) Not every polar event was available

2) Not every domain was available

3) Not all Polar conditions were available

4) The one time there was the right trick, the domain open and the condition (ironically) the Polar event didn't matter.

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Marius:

Ah, you meant 12 - 15 cards, not 4 -5 cards. Well, that's a huge difference...

Well, at 3 copy per card you can easilly splash a control bit of cthulhu or agency in almost any deck would benefit from it.

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Marius:

Worlds was very combo oriented this year. Hell, Masks of Nyarlathothep is long concidered the weakest set from the CCG time, and after a looooong time people started to make broken decks with it.

Actually Masks was so broken that it was nerfed before it made an impact (rainbow 2).

But my previous answer was just semantics: I am waiting for a broken Conspiracy deck (of course levelling the playing field cycling out pre LCG cards is not allowed )

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Marius:

One liner for one liner:

Prof. Lake, Notebook Sketches - very good anti-combo tech for Misk.

There are better options (Ironically right from Masks).

Specimen Bags - A little quirky, but with a lot of potential

Attachment = useless. Has potential as a resource.

Cave Mouth - Giving Cthulhu even better defenses.

This is a reverse Conspiracy: if more stories didn't matter, why should less? Hint: Ravager isn't undefeatable.

Penguin - Card draw for Hastur, decent stats for a H 2 coster.

A chumpblocker: really something to get excited about. But in the pile of junk AtMoM is it really shine as a good card.

Forgotten Shoggoth - An invul chara with a subtype that gained a lot of support, with an ability that helps against some combo decks.

Now, the Forgotten Shoggoth isn't bad. We are at 1/20, we just got on par with Conspiracies of Chaos.

Reawakened Elder Thing. 2 ( ! ) investigation icons in a faction that shouldn't have access to that much investigation, with a minor drawback. Again, a Monster, which is pushed greatly in the other AP.

For just 3 you can get a charactare which is vulnerable to almost any removal in existence (Except nodens) but is not west reanimable and has a drawback. Not really interesting. Just one thing: you can mix factions, to have the strength of one overcome the weakness of another. Or has Nate planned to keep factions segregated? 2/20 but I will not play it. (woooooo this ste is better than Conspiracies it must be awesome)

Antarctic Yeti. More Textbox/Willpower removal, on a monster, almost an extra copy of isle...

Except it needs Yig to commit to cancel him (yeah, right, Yig commits:D )

Snow Graves - What hasn't been said about it?

That at 3x and non searchable you need copious amount of luck to get them before a reanimator chews them. Then again one of the few cards which can shape the meta somehow: now all reanimators recyclers will pack support removals. 3/20

Sledge Dogs - Very efficient rushers...

Now, don't get head over heels because I said they could be good in a simple rush. Thay still have huge troubles performing any better than chump blockers. 4/20

Hey you forgot the obviously overpowered Barque Miskatonic. As a playtester how would you rate it?

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Marius:

I would say that is pretty awesome... But hey... I'm just a cheerleader, so, wrong.

I say 4/20 is pretty crap. And you are right, you are wrong.

Carioz said:

Well, one can argue that you're describing the whole Hastur faction here... All those cancels and insanity effects waiting for something that may or may not happen...

Carioz said:

Well, you get most of it a bit cheaper and more efficient now, in a faction.

Carioz said:

So, you played one game with a badly tuned polar deck , and you blame the mechanic! Wow...

Carioz said:

And severly reduce the chances you'll have on a 1st turn Court of Y'Till, but that's a really bad card, so anyone in their right mind would rather face a 1st turn Greg & Ghoul for example... There is always a payoff. And yes, you can splash agency, and that too makes Polar just far more effective.

Carioz said:

Well, if you measure success by introducing more broken mechanics to the game and remove interactivity, and reduce the game to a coin flip, then yes, it's a huge failure.

Carioz said:

Oh, tell me. In Miskatonic, please.

Carioz said:

That has been my gut reaction too, but it does have some potential in Run and Gun. Bureau Chief or other hard to remove characters could make it interesting...

Carioz said:

There is more than Ravager though.

Carioz said:

Well, the game segregates the characters a little. Say you want to play Yog + another monster faction. Double investigation means it's pretty fun having among the GK crowd as well, for some serious presure...

Carioz said:

Why does Yig need to commit?

Carioz said:

So, a card is bad because you can't play more then 3, and people make their deck less consistant to get rid of it? If that is bad, I don't want to be good.

Carioz said:

I haven't even seen your opinion on them. I think they are very efficient for their cost.

Carioz said:

And yet, you can't stop reading. Good boy!

Marius:

Well, one can argue that you're describing the whole Hastur faction here... All those cancels and insanity effects waiting for something that may or may not happen...

Yeah, because Hastur is just insanity and cancels. Hand manipulation, discarding and that tiny little Theater must belong to a different faction.

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Marius:

Well, you get most of it a bit cheaper and more efficient now, in a faction.

Conspiracies' Conspiracies (that's funny to write) are free. And they are one for each faction. They did not impact play. None really build decks thinking: "**** my oppo is gonna use Ritual conspiracy + Old Lazy Eyes, that's 0.52 of him having it first turn I really must take care"Even free cards, when they make no impact, are useless.

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Marius:

So, you played one game with a badly tuned polar deck , and you blame the mechanic! Wow...

Nope, I played many games with Polar cards. After figuring out they were utterly useless for me (stress on for me) I had the chance to play two games with a good player and we had the same feeling. Then we posted a review, to show why, for us, Polar have some problems, which mainly are: they are narrow, they cost a lot, and you are better off using direct shooting for removal, because that's just what they try to do, but cannot deliver.

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Marius:

And severly reduce the chances you'll have on a 1st turn Court of Y'Till, but that's a really bad card, so anyone in their right mind would rather face a 1st turn Greg & Ghoul for example...

Courting Assistant response is just asking for a disrupt and the same the following turn (or the same turn, if facing a particullary evil deck).

So you are trading away the chance to remove a Ghoul in the 3 turns it is in play for the chance of disrupting it coming into play one turn, and then eating the same t2? Not a wise choice to me.

But you are right, since the ritual/ rip-offs banning Court of Ythill has become a novelty item, at least in my meta.

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Marius:

Well, if you measure success by introducing more broken mechanics to the game and remove interactivity, and reduce the game to a coin flip, then yes, it's a huge failure.

You are right, I overestimated Conspiracies: show me a deck which can win games (I am not asking a 100%, just 33% would be enough) against archetypal decks where Conspiracies are not an hindarance.

You know Gathering at the Stones isn't broken, but very few people would put it in the same stack of useless where Conspiracies rest

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Marius:

Oh, tell me. In Miskatonic, please.

You are really fixated with factions: unless Nate rules the opposite (and frankly I could even expect it) you can mix and match. Furthermore you may want to notice there are many way to put characters into play, and hardcasting them isn't the only one. I'd even say hardcasting characters is an hindrance to get them into playwhen you need them...

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Marius:

That has been my gut reaction too, but it does have some potential in Run and Gun. Bureau Chief or other hard to remove characters could make it interesting...

So i't an attachment that fits exactly one character and yet it doesn't even do anything alone. Picture me thrilled.

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Marius:

There is more than Ravager though.

Waiting for a deck which uses the Cave meaningfully.

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Marius:

Well, the game segregates the characters a little. Say you want to play Yog + another monster faction. Double investigation means it's pretty fun having among the GK crowd as well, for some serious presure...

I'd rather say: the game, played on a really basic environment, segregates faction stregths. But that's not the point: no need to argue with me this card isn't on the same useless pile with the others I already conceded it's a step above the rest (and a step below useful).

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Marius:

Why does Yig need to commit?

Actually it doesn't. Isn't it ironic? A card which is built for blanking which cannot even choose what to blank.

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Marius:

So, a card is bad because you can't play more then 3, and people make their deck less consistant to get rid of it? If that is bad, I don't want to be good.

humm... have you missed it's on the "promoted" 4 cards group. Then again this has potential to be as good as Beneath the Mire. One of the meta shaping cards I've never seen in play.

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Marius:

I haven't even seen your opinion on them. I think they are very efficient for their cost.

I think they are efficient for their cost, useless for their effect and work only in a tier 2 at best archetype.

Check here: http://www.cthulhulcg.com/cocforums/posts/list/30/12363.page#240442 (old forum, so it might require an account)

Marius wrote:

You can't possibly know how much that pleases me.

Ofcourse, there are some weird elements to the card. The number 8 is a weird choice. 9 would have made more sense in AP format, and especially in core format. Oh, and doggies can go insane but still count their bonus. "other cards named ASD gain..." would have been better in hindsight.

But yeah, they are 8 slots of superior combat beatings, that all Polar haters will love.

And it's great fun when a doggie dies mid-commitment and then suddenly all other doggies lose a combat. It could get messy.

It's a classic case of Brute Force and Interesting on one card.

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Marius:

And yet, you can't stop reading. Good boy!

What can I say, I love to probe the depths you are willing to go to say that Polars are TEH UBAR!!! Graham says I am a train wreck fetishist.

Carioz said:

Well, Theater is card disadvantage, so who cares

Carioz said:

Maybe someday you will, and still find reason to complain.

Carioz said:

Well, the disrupt costs, you know, sacrificing a character...

Carioz said:

I could, but you would just complain. Really!

Carioz said:

Because, balancing factions is part of the game. You know, you can get away with 2, maybe three, but somewhere along the line your deck is going to suffer.

Carioz said:

Ah, good. You're thrilled. So, you can imagine some weird form of control that takes out a certain key character. Good.

Carioz said:

Well, try to break it. At least it's not a cookie-cutter "Nate wants Carioz to play this card" card. It does something different and new.

Carioz said:

Well, you'll have to explain me that one, because I have a feeling the version I saw did...

Carioz said:

Because they are, and because it's funny that you'll never get why.

Marius:

Well, Theater is card disadvantage, so who cares

Funny thing is even most Conspiracies are.

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Marius:

Maybe someday you will, and still find reason to complain.

I have more then one reason to believe that Current dev team is willing to go to about any low to shoehorn Conspiracies into play. Say, how many packs before a "If you play Conspiracies you cannot lose" effect?

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Marius:

Well, the disrupt costs, you know, sacrificing a character...

Ooooh, you are right, and most decks play exactly with one Assistant and one GK, so once you have stopped them T1 you have won.

It's not like one could, say, play another character to disrupt. But then again I am venturing far into theorycthulhu, which is almost the worst thing one can do.

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Marius:

I could, but you would just complain. Really!

Using existant cards? No. There is no deck where Conspiracies matter, right now. Using Conspiracies or you lose? Could be.

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Marius:

Ah, good. You're thrilled. So, you can imagine some weird form of control that takes out a certain key character. Good.

Three card for one. Uber control. And most decks have this thing called redundancy (you know, not all decks blow everything T1 in a do or die sequence). Furthermore If you can put into play instead of playing such key character, you can just ignore the super specimen bags.

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Marius:

Well, try to break it. At least it's not a cookie-cutter "Nate wants Carioz to play this card" card. It does something different and new.

Which translates into: It was useless enough that none could do anything about it.

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Marius:

Because they are, and because it's funny that you'll never get why.

Oh, once a Polar deck manages to do something I am more than willing to get why they are so good. So far I'll maintain a "Useless until proven otherwise" stance.

Personally I'd like to see a bit less fighting and more constructive critizism and ideas on the boards. For example, I'm not yet sold on the idea of polar cards, but would be glad to test my hand at them. Marius, could you post a well-thought (doesn't have to be fine-tuned, of course!) Agency-Hastur polar deck? I could then test it against a couple different decks (from all tiers). I'd really appreciate the effort.

PS. Had to post this message twice... the first just kind of fizzled.

Bard said:

I don't have a finished deck ATM, but I'm thinking somewhere along the lines of using the Captain, Mr. Grey and Realm as a sort of engine to keep the wounds flying with White Out (win most strugles on defense) and Antarctic Wind, backed up with Agency gunfire.

I've found that Sharpshooter is fine, but often has problems targeting things. Combined with the built in Polar recursion effects and card draw, plus the possible extra wounding, the idea is to keep drawing your shotgun blasts and other wounding effects with the penguins. Another advantage over a straight agency deck is the access to cancels here and there, to get rid of dangerous triggered effects; Your opponents removal for instance, as well as nasty card combo's. I know that control is fighting an uphill battle, but both Agency and Hastur have a few good weenies, so with both it should be possible to get set up a defense, then built momentum to break through, while disrupting your opponents progress.