But the Rebel rifle isn't based on the M16, but the STG44.

There were two version of the prop. The one from ESB used by the rebels on Hoth is based on a sturmgewehr 44, but the one from RotJ used by the Endor Strike Team is a hacked about M-16/AR-15/whatever you call it.

As such, I feel any picture of an M-16 family rifle with no magazine inserted can be a reference for Rebel weaponry.

Yep. What he said. Most Star Wars weaponry was built from WW2 stuff, but a few modern ones do exist.

I've wondered before why the M16 was used for later versions of the Rebel rifle when the first were created from the Stg-44. Why weren't AK-47's used? They would also be a cheap weapon to buy by the props department and the AK-47 is a direct descendant of the Stg-44 and so would require less modifications to look like it.

Which of these two...

....looks more like this?

http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Star_Wars

Warning to anyone who is not a gun person you will not like this site.

The internet movie firearm database does a great job connecting the movie weapons to their real inspirations.

I believe Lucas said somewhere that there were always women in the Imperial military, including stormtroopers, we just never saw them on screen in the films.

Could you point me in the vicinity of when/where he said such? I've never heard this before.

I have no doubt that George said it. But with George, timing is everything. Did he say it before or after he said something else that contradicted the statement?

I believe Lucas said somewhere that there were always women in the Imperial military, including stormtroopers, we just never saw them on screen in the films.

Could you point me in the vicinity of when/where he said such? I've never heard this before.

I have no doubt that George said it. But with George, timing is everything. Did he say it before or after he said something else that contradicted the statement?

I can't quote Lucas, but there is a wonderful little section about female stormtroopers in the now non-canon Essential Guide To Warfare . The overall message was that the female stormtroopers (although uncommon) were there, but they wore the same helmets and armor, so there's no way you would know.

Here's the photo from the book:

I know I try to match the "Exploitation" level with the character. So a character like Ranna (the short pilot) is drawn sexy because that is her personality. Jessa (Black ponytail) is a manipulator who is not the party girl Ranna is but will use her looks for an advantage when needed so she is toned down. Kaiya (in the back) is a no-nonsense person who doesn't really give half a thought to how she looks, but is still described as attractive.

Scourne is a scarred and worn, but was once pretty so I modeled her after the very worn and one time pretty Bridgette Nielson.

Baraduk is a bounty hunter so head (with helmet) to toe armor made sense. As it did for Tyria who is a sharp angular mandalorian. Baraduk is strong but her personality is more sexual so she looks sexier. Tyria doesn't care for that so her style and manners reflect that.

I think what i am trying to say is their is room in the Star Wars galaxy for all types of "Lady Soldiers". Not every one needs to look like a pin-up but not every one needs to look like Bart's Aunts from the Simpsons.

But remember, according to canon, there are no bras in space...

[The samophlange Runs for cover after that]

But remember, according to canon, there are no bras in space...

[The samophlange Runs for cover after that]

Blast him!

But remember, according to canon, there are no bras in space...

[The samophlange Runs for cover after that]

As the one who asked for a reference to the suggestion George Lucas has said there are female Stormtroopers, I would also ask if George has ever stated there are bras in Star Wars! No? Looks like Samo is on to something.

I believe Carrie Fischer said that then wore the iron bikini bra in ROTJ disproving her statement.

Just a slight derail: I wonder, with the new canon status, we will see a more gender equal and less speciest empire?

You mean more speciesist and less gender-equal, right?

With the Expanded Universe pretty much declared null and void, the following stuff is now invalid:

Major General Tessela Corvae, commanding officer of the 1st Tapani Assault Brigade, founded the secret Firebird Society in order to prove the value of female soldiers to a still-sexist Imperial High Command by staging unofficial, clandestine raids on rebel and pirate targets using women recruited from the Imperial military whose careers were stuck due to the attitude of their superiors, and bored girls from Tapani nobility - the latter of which also contributed the necessary funds to acquire several Lambda-class shuttles to add to the arms and body armour Corvae managed to smuggle out of Imperial Army depots.

Her efforts would later be followed by ...

Admiral Natasi Daala, whose career in the Imperial Navy seemed to have arrived at a dead end when she was assigned as a mere data analyst on Carida. However, using a false identity, she repeatedly bested the Academy's students in tactical simulations - building fame as a mysterious mastermind, a reputation that would ultimately result in her true identity being discovered following an investigation. Her low position was an embarrassment to the Academy staff which obviously failed to adequately support and foster this talent. When she was about to be transferred to an equatorial survey station, both to punish as well as to hide the "troublemaker", Moff Tarkin intervened and recruited her as commander for the secret Maw Installation's defense group, where she oversaw the development of various superweapons.

This facility was so secret it was all but forgotten when the Empire fractured. After more than a decade of isolation without any contact at all, Daala finally took her four Star Destroyers and left the Maw to check on the state of the galaxy, seeing the Empire splintered and fought over by a dozen squabbling warlords, whilst the rebels were busy building their New Republic. Losing three of her four warships in an ill-planned (using outdated tactics) campaign of vengeance against Republic targets, she eventually resolved to focus her attention on trying to rebuild the Empire. After many fruitless meetings and attempts at diplomacy, she resorted to more drastic measures and reunited the splintered warlord factions in a single stroke .

During the brief time she had overall command of the Imperial forces, before ultimately stepping down and appointing Gilad Pellaeon as her successor, she mandated sweeping reforms for Imperial policies, amongst which were an end to the discrimination of female soldiers as well as to the ban of alien recruits.

... which would, many decades later, lead to this image of the troops of the resurgent Fel Empire:

Indeed, about 120 years after the Emperor's death at Endor, the nation he shaped would see its first Empress.

Quite ironically in a council that would also include a Jedi Master. It's fascinating how many things can change in a couple generations, right?

Anyways ... all this is now apparently non-canon.

Even if the new movies would incorporate more female Imps (doubt it), we're now missing out on the background of how exactly they got there. To most fans, this is probably a non-issue, but I thought this reflection of real life issues was a nice bonus and a clever way of explaining the shift in personnel composition. After all, they're certainly not going back to change the older movies, right?

... oh, wait.

I believe Carrie Fischer said that then wore the iron bikini bra in ROTJ disproving her statement.

There's a story behind that, in that Lucas forbade her to wear a bra in ANH - which is why in some scenes you can see the shape of her nips on the white tunic she wore - using that "nobody wears underwear in space" line when she asked him for the reason.

http://thefw.com/star-wars-costume-facts/

The RoTJ bikini probably doesn't count because it's not underwear but only wear.

Just a slight derail: I wonder, with the new canon status, we will see a more gender equal and less speciest empire?

You mean more speciesist and less gender-equal, right?

Saying the empire is sexist because we only see male officers is, with my above example and point about what we see, possible, it must be tempered by the real world time in which the films were made. There were probably fewer female actresses, the ones around were in other roles. Even looking at background performer roles, predominantly male, likely because that is all they had.

As there is more of a gender balance in hollywood/film and television in general now, the casting of actors (referring to both male and female here) and background roles could be more balanced.

Also, as to aliens in the empire, cost and technical limitations could limit costumes. Having a poorly made rubber masked character represent a minor role, speaking, which many of the imperial officers do, removes some believability. The aliens in the cantina and sail barge looked pretty cheap if you scrutinized them, but for a passing glance, they are fine.

With technology advancing since the original movies, much of the cost/quality has been reduced.

We only get a sexist and speciest empire in the EU, which has been mostly disregarded, as the movies never implicitly state these as facts.

Finally, before Return of the Jedi, the rebellion was pretty **** speciest and sexist as well. Leia referred to Chewbacca as a walking carpet...

What I think they are going to do is have an Empire consisting entirely of white men facing off against a diversity alliance of everyone else.

I also think this has the potential to backfire, as it means trying to get these guys

to cheer for a movie where these guys:-

mow down a whole bunch of evil dudes who look like

while wearing **** eating grins like

which, ah, may require a certain lightness of touch to provoke the reaction they are aiming for. And not actually contribute to making the internet an even more toxic place than it already is.

Finally, before Return of the Jedi, the rebellion was pretty **** speciest and sexist as well. Leia referred to Chewbacca as a walking carpet...

Ah, women...

Finally, before Return of the Jedi, the rebellion was pretty **** speciest and sexist as well. Leia referred to Chewbacca as a walking carpet...

Ah, women...

Yes the Rebellion was quite sexist. I wonder if we will see any forward progress in this area in Episode VII as the New Republic is formed? Probably not since all of the power positions are controlled by women - Leia, Mon Mothma, Ackbar .

No. I mean what I said. Apart from one imperial saying 'where are you taking this thing?" There is nothing officially stated in the movies that the empire is sexist or hates aliens. After all, an alien did report the heroes to the stormtroopers in A new hope.

What I think they are going to do is have an Empire consisting entirely of white men facing off against a diversity alliance of everyone else.

Yeah, I considered this an intention of the original trilogy already. Sure, the rebels didn't have many aliens, women, or even non-white humans in their ranks either, but at least they had token examples to express this diversity attitude.

Just a slight derail: I wonder, with the new canon status, we will see a more gender equal and less speciest empire?

Admiral Natasi Daala, whose career in the Imperial Navy seemed to have arrived at a dead end when she was assigned as a mere data analyst on Carida. However, using a false identity, she repeatedly bested the Academy's students in tactical simulations - building fame as a mysterious mastermind, a reputation that would ultimately result in her true identity being discovered following an investigation. Her low position was an embarrassment to the Academy staff which obviously failed to adequately support and foster this talent. When she was about to be transferred to an equatorial survey station, both to punish as well as to hide the "troublemaker", Moff Tarkin intervened and recruited her as commander for the secret Maw Installation's defense group, where she oversaw the development of various superweapons.

The rest of your analysis in that post was pretty spot-on, but I do think you're being charitable to Daala by omission. Yes, she was a brilliant tactician, but she was also a ruthless careerist that essentially slept her way to the top. She had no authority outside of Tarkin's command, and her appointment to the Maw Installation was as much to hide Tarkin's affair (he only married for the sake of his career) as it was about Daala's ability to lead.

Her actions after leaving the Maw Installation were motivated by spite and anger, and irrational decision-making cost those under her command dearly- not just old tactics. Later, as the Chief of State of the Galactic Alliance, Daala's hatred for the Jedi was a blind spot which caused her to ignore Luke Skywalker's warnings about the Sith and about Abeloth. This hatred fueled the draconian measures she used to punish the Jedi in the aftermath of Caedus' death, and created a situation in which the Jedi were so desperate that they helped remove her from power in a coup.

I'm not saying she wasn't brilliant, or one of the most interesting characters of the Post-Endor period, but she wasn't just a positive role model for little girls in the Empire with aspirations of being the captain of a star destroyer.

Yeah, I considered this an intention of the original trilogy already. Sure, the rebels didn't have many aliens, women, or even non-white humans in their ranks either, but at least they had token examples to express this diversity attitude.

There is a fair difference between a movie where the 'good' white guys (and their token diverse allies) beat up on the 'bad' white guys (Slike World War II movies - the Nazis are all white guys, but the British/Americans are also mostly white guys), and watching feminists and ethnic minorities (and their token tame White Knights) kick in the teeth of Team Straight White Guy for the crime of privilege like the free peoples slaughtering orcs in LotR. And for better or worse, I kinda think many er... stereotypical Star Wars fans signed up for the former rather than the latter. And may not appreciate being told off for being a straight white guy through the medium of Star Wars, aka The Holy Text of nerditude.

I think selling LotR to orcs might be kind of tricky.

For those that are new to this board, don't be upset. Sylpheed is undeniably (well, he hasn't denied it) the most recent incarnation of a past member who has been banned at least twice under the names AluminumWolf and ErikB. It's a holiday weekend (at least where FFG is headquartered), but I'm hoping eventually forum staff will take note of Reports sent their way and get rid of this troll for the 3rd (?) time.

I'm not saying she wasn't brilliant, or one of the most interesting characters of the Post-Endor period, but she wasn't just a positive role model for little girls in the Empire with aspirations of being the captain of a star destroyer.

I knew some Daala's in the Air Force and Army. Career advancement is career advancement, and when pressed aobut it you usually got a "it levels the playing field" response. To be fair though, I can also name a few situations where a female officer's career was stalled because they wouldn't do such things, though that is really starting to get cracked down on even at the merest hint. Seriously, don't mess around with females in the miltary while serving, its a good way to screw up your career or get kicked out.

For those that are new to this board, don't be upset. Sylpheed is undeniably (well, he hasn't denied it) the most recent incarnation of a past member who has been banned at least twice under the names AluminumWolf and ErikB. It's a holiday weekend (at least where FFG is headquartered), but I'm hoping eventually forum staff will take note of Reports sent their way and get rid of this troll for the 3rd (?) time.

I must admit that hadn't occurred to me, but looking at the style of the posts it seems to be fairly obvious...

I'm not saying she wasn't brilliant, or one of the most interesting characters of the Post-Endor period, but she wasn't just a positive role model for little girls in the Empire with aspirations of being the captain of a star destroyer.

Well, she certainly had her flaws, but I was presenting her less as a role model and more as a factor in the Empire's gradual shift towards a more egalitarian recruitment policy - a history lesson, if you will.

Though I'm going out on a limb and say that nobody important in Star Wars was just a positive role model. Even Luke Skywalker made horrible and hardly justifiable mistakes. The key thing, though, is that such figures had a more positive than negative influence on their people or the galaxy as a whole, which may exonerate them of lesser failings. And personally, when I'm looking at Daala, the very first thing I see is not a random officer who wasted the lives of their soldiers in blind vengeance like so many others did as well, but the one unique individual who not only stood up the squabbling warlords in a time when most officers with even just a fraction of power thought only about themselves, but who actually managed to reunite this splintered Empire and turn it against the real enemy instead of further allowing Imperials to continue killing other Imperials for the sake of greedy warlords.

And then having the humility to step down and surrender command to someone more suitable for long-term leadership than herself, because in the end she saw that her way wouldn't work out.

Indeed, if it hadn't been for Daala, Pellaeon would have never had the opportunity to reforge the Empire into something that would eventually manage to survive the Yuuzhan Vong crisis, much less allow it to reconquer Coruscant and the other core worlds many decades later. In a way, you could say Pellaeon was the crafter, but Daala was the one who gave him the tools in the first place. And this is as important as any role a proper Imperial soldier may aspire to.

That being said, I'm also of the opinion that her later role in the Galactic Alliance wasn't handled very well. As much of a deliciously ironic troll move as it was ("if I can't conquer them, I'll just have them elect me into office"), her coming out of retirement on that farming colony she settled together with the crews of her fleet cancelled a suitable and honourable end for this character, and instead turned her into a cliché villain once again who must have pulled a complete 180 because suddenly all the character development she had in Darksaber and Planet of Twilight was rendered null and void.

On a sidenote, I'm fairly sure it was never stated she slept with Tarkin. In fact, wasn't there a segment in Darksaber where she reflected on such rumours? The reader was privy to her thoughts, and there was no sign of guilt - only a mixture of disappointment and anger that people would draw such conclusions. It's been ages since I read that book, but this is what I recall, anyways.

Now, I'm fairly sure there was something between the two, but it wasn't a real romance. To me, it felt as if both were drawn to one another, yet they refrained from actually following these feelings - Daala out of her fervent belief in duty, and Tarkin because he knew he couldn't push her, as doing so would risk the intimacy he enjoyed with her as a confidante.

Kind of like a teacher-pupil-relationship with a significant spark of affection, but nothing that would actually involve both of them sharing a bed? If you know what I'm getting at. "Look but don't touch"

There is a fair difference between a movie where the 'good' white guys (and their token diverse allies) beat up on the 'bad' white guys, and watching feminists and ethnic minorities (and their token tame White Knights) kick in the teeth of Team Straight White Guy for the crime of privilege

I'm ... not quite sure what you think people are suggesting here?

Also, shouldn't it be "Team Ignorant Discrimination"? You kind of make it sound as if straight white guys would have no place in a "diversity alliance", when them being an equal part of it is what would define that faction. I'm also not quite sure what you mean when you say "token tame White Knights"; that sounds like an oxymoron.

I'm ... not quite sure what you think people are suggesting here?

Best not look too deeply into that abyss.

I just want to see women in stylish imperial uniforms (not the tarted up uniforms with bare midriffs). Maybe Sigourney Weaver as a stormtrooper commander.. would be awesome.

Well, she certainly had her flaws, but I was presenting her less as a role model and more as a factor in the Empire's gradual shift towards a more egalitarian recruitment policy - a history lesson, if you will.

Though I'm going out on a limb and say that nobody important in Star Wars was just a positive role model. Even Luke Skywalker made horrible and hardly justifiable mistakes. The key thing, though, is that such figures had a more positive than negative influence on their people or the galaxy as a whole, which may exonerate them of lesser failings. And personally, when I'm looking at Daala, the very first thing I see is not a random officer who wasted the lives of their soldiers in blind vengeance like so many others did as well, but the one unique individual who not only stood up the squabbling warlords in a time when most officers with even just a fraction of power thought only about themselves, but who actually managed to reunite this splintered Empire and turn it against the real enemy instead of further allowing Imperials to continue killing other Imperials for the sake of greedy warlords.

And then having the humility to step down and surrender command to someone more suitable for long-term leadership than herself, because in the end she saw that her way wouldn't work out.

Indeed, if it hadn't been for Daala, Pellaeon would have never had the opportunity to reforge the Empire into something that would eventually manage to survive the Yuuzhan Vong crisis, much less allow it to reconquer Coruscant and the other core worlds many decades later. In a way, you could say Pellaeon was the crafter, but Daala was the one who gave him the tools in the first place. And this is as important as any role a proper Imperial soldier may aspire to.

That being said, I'm also of the opinion that her later role in the Galactic Alliance wasn't handled very well. As much of a deliciously ironic troll move as it was ("if I can't conquer them, I'll just have them elect me into office"), her coming out of retirement on that farming colony she settled together with the crews of her fleet cancelled a suitable and honourable end for this character, and instead turned her into a cliché villain once again who must have pulled a complete 180 because suddenly all the character development she had in Darksaber and Planet of Twilight was rendered null and void.

On a sidenote, I'm fairly sure it was never stated she slept with Tarkin. In fact, wasn't there a segment in Darksaber where she reflected on such rumours? The reader was privy to her thoughts, and there was no sign of guilt - only a mixture of disappointment and anger that people would draw such conclusions. It's been ages since I read that book, but this is what I recall, anyways.

Now, I'm fairly sure there was something between the two, but it wasn't a real romance. To me, it felt as if both were drawn to one another, yet they refrained from actually following these feelings - Daala out of her fervent belief in duty, and Tarkin because he knew he couldn't push her, as doing so would risk the intimacy he enjoyed with her as a confidante.

Kind of like a teacher-pupil-relationship with a significant spark of affection, but nothing that would actually involve both of them sharing a bed? If you know what I'm getting at. "Look but don't touch"

Fair points, all. I'll agree with you that there are no perfect role models in Star Wars, and that's probably a good thing. (" Perfect " characters would get very boring, very quickly.) I didn't mean to imply that Daala's significance was only defined by her relationship to Tarkin. She's certainly a far more complex and interesting character than most give her credit for. In fact, her reunification of Imperial forces under Pellaeon was perhaps the most significant event in Imperial history after Thrawn's death. ( And look at the way she did it, too! )

That being said, I interpreted her motives for handing over control to Pellaeon differently. By that time, Daala had very little credibility as a military leader (she herself acknowledged her numerous and very visible defeats) and the manner in which she dealt with the squabbling warlords meant that the moffs wouldn't have trusted her. Handing control over to Pellaeon was borne as much out of necessity as it was out of a desire to preserve the Empire. Clearly, the end result was a good one and her influence on the Empire was a net positive. Still, Daala's significance notwithstanding, I think Pellaeon deserves a significant portion of the credit (though clearly not all of it) for the liberalizing the Imperial military's de facto (if not de jure ) policy of discrimination against females and aliens. (He did serve under Thrawn, after all.) Well, Pellaeon's experiences and the desperation brought about by the constant loss of territory and materiel to the rebels are two of the main reasons I credited with making the Empire's military more diverse.

I hadn't thought about Daala as a force for that, though when presented the way you did, the idea certainly makes sense. The notion that Daala's appointment of Pellaeon was based on careful consideration and the foresight of what would be best for the Empire isn't a perspective I had seriously considered either, though, and it does paint Daala in a new (and much more positive) light for me. I'm going to have to actually go back and read the novels again with those interpretations in mind. Thank you for giving me some food for thought.

As far as the latter part of your post:

When I first read the Jedi Academy Trilogy, I felt the same way you did about Daala's relationship to Tarkin. It was clearly a close, mentorship type of relationship built on mutual admiration. Rumors were going to persist no matter what. I did remember the nature of their relationship being defined as more explicitly sexual, though, so I did some digging, and according to Wookieepedia , the nature of Daala's relationship with Tarkin went from rumor to established fact in Darksaber , and was expounded upon in the novel Death Star .

I just want to see women in stylish imperial uniforms (not the tarted up uniforms with bare midriffs). Maybe Sigourney Weaver as a stormtrooper commander.. would be awesome.

So basically, more of this , and this , and this , and less of the obnoxious, fan-service stuff.

Edit: Typos.