Is there a problem pasting details into the body ... I can paste into the topic title but not the actual body ... so sorry but no quotes of the card text

Griff - if you are not running an agenda, attach Griff to your house card - if you control fewer attachments, unattach Griff and return him to play

Griff has an errata - He is House Targaryen only ... so the question is a bit theoretical

If I was not running an agenda and control the Red Viper (the one where you kill all characters after he is killed)

If I have no attachments, would I ever be considered to be running an agenda

e.g. Valaar gets played and both Griff and Red Viper get killed - I control both characters and have no agenda

I am assuming the Griff attaches to my house card as a passive and then immediately detaches and then I do responses - Red Viper's response kicks in as I do not have an agenda?

Actually, when both are killed, The Red Viper becomes moribund->dead pile, while Griff becomes moribund->agenda (since agendas are out of play, a card in play becoming an agenda becomes moribund). So, in step 5, you will not yet be running an agenda and you could trigger The Red Viper's response. In step 6, Griff would become your agenda. Note that Griff's erratum also says that he comes back only if you control fewer attachments as each opponent (having as many doesn't work). Also note that your scenario is still possible with control-changing effects (like reducing TRV's STR and playing Ward on it).

It's worth noting that since the "dead Griff" sitting on the table in the "moribund:agenda" state is not yet your agenda, his "return to play" text - which is gained while he is an agenda - is not actually active yet.

If Griff dies and becomes your Agenda while you have fewer attachments, he won't actually be returned to play until the passive step of the next action window - which is the first opportunity his passive effect gets to initiate/resolve after he leaves the "moribund:agenda" state.

Thanks - sounds like I am unclear on the timing

I thought that Griff was a passive and therefore would happen before Responses, but you are saying it is the other way around?

Likewise the timing of Griff returning to play (btw I assume he counts as an attachments once he becomes your agenda)

If I kill Griff as a result of a challenge (either Military claim or due to deadly), he doesn't detach immediately?

Or if I killed Griff at the end of the phase (Battle of Oxcross), would he detach before counting dominance?

If you kill Griff, he becomes moribund and effectively becomes an agenda (and not an attachment) only in step 6, so not immediately. For obvious reasons, he cannot detach before he attaches, so if his detach condition is true as soon as he attaches, he detaches at the first opportunity, which is in the next action window (likewise if an attachment leaves play, but not if one enters play or changes control) because it's too late for passives in step 6. That action window might be in the next phase.

Since phase-specific Framework Action Windows are separate from beginning-of-phase FAWs, Griff will indeed return to play before Dominance is counted. If a card is brought out of shadows, he will return as a passive to its coming out; if not, as a passive to the beginning of the phase.

What you seem to be forgetting - and will help you understand Khudzlin's explanation - is that Agendas are not "in play" (and thus not counted as attachments, by the way). And since they are out-of-play, Griff has to go through Moribund - just like he would if he were going to the dead or discard pile - when he dies.

I thought that Griff was a passive and therefore would happen before Responses, but you are saying it is the other way around?

Griff's ability to become an agenda is a replacement effect , not a passive. So it happens immediately as part of being killed - no need to wait for a passive or a response window. When something kills him, he is still considered "killed," but instead of going to the dead pile (after becoming "moribund:dead"), he goes to your House card as an Angenda (after becoming "moribund:agenda").

But now, you still have to follow all the normal rules for Moribund.

When a character becomes moribund, it stays on the table - as a character - until the end of the current action window. That means that while you are resolving all of the passives and responses associated with whatever killed Griff, he is still (in play as) a character , not (out-of-play as) an agenda. Since he is not physically an agenda yet, his whole agenda text (including the "return this agenda to play" text) is not active or available. So you don't have to worry about an attachment count for returning him to play until the end of the action window in which he was killed.

It's not until the next action window (no matter what kind) that he is eligible to be returned to play - as Khudzlin details above.

Thanks both of you

I was totally overlooking this being a replacement affect, hence my confusion with the "passive" / response sequence