You imply that Dain´s ability is the same but he does not give +1 defense and his ability "only" works when he is ready.

The argument that there are not that many silvan heroes right now isn´t really valid seeing as more heroes will be added at some point.

It'll be rare to get enough readying abilities on the board in round 1 to actually make use of more than 1 stat point per hero, and I really don't think giving each hero +1 of a stat for a single round would be game-breaking at all. A readying ability can potentially be.more powerful than that and can often last many rounds.

Dain's ability is a good comparison, even if it has obvious differences. It only has a 2 point stat boost, but it can potentially apply to a LOT of Dwarves and lasts from the beginning of the game until Dain dies. It has the restriction that Dain needs to be ready, but a simple readying effect can remedy that for the most part and he can always just be saved for attacking, so everyone can still get the willpower boost.

The proposed first-turn boost to three stats on Silvan heroes seems much weaker to me by comparison. We're talking about a boost that is limited to 1 turn: the turn where the players are typically the weakest, and in numerous cases, where the encounter deck can be at its strongest.

The argument about the number of Silvan heroes that are available is pointless because it does not take into account the future of the game. In any case, this post is simply an idea that likely won't be implemented, at least not on Celeborn. It's not worth the amount of arguing we are doing about it.

TL;DR

An icebox. An icebox would be cool.

Rapier, I won't even bother reading your post, if you want to communicate with me - learn to do it in a more "compressed" way.

If his repsonse would read "character" instead of ally, and heroes were considered to enter play at the beginning of the very first turn.

It wouldn't be cool.

No, it would.

You imply that Dain´s ability is the same but he does not give +1 defense and his ability "only" works when he is ready.

The argument that there are not that many silvan heroes right now isn´t really valid seeing as more heroes will be added at some point.

It'll be rare to get enough readying abilities on the board in round 1 to actually make use of more than 1 stat point per hero, and I really don't think giving each hero +1 of a stat for a single round would be game-breaking at all. A readying ability can potentially be.more powerful than that and can often last many rounds.

Dain's ability is a good comparison, even if it has obvious differences. It only has a 2 point stat boost, but it can potentially apply to a LOT of Dwarves and lasts from the beginning of the game until Dain dies. It has the restriction that Dain needs to be ready, but a simple readying effect can remedy that for the most part and he can always just be saved for attacking, so everyone can still get the willpower boost.

The proposed first-turn boost to three stats on Silvan heroes seems much weaker to me by comparison. We're talking about a boost that is limited to 1 turn: the turn where the players are typically the weakest, and in numerous cases, where the encounter deck can be at its strongest.

The argument about the number of Silvan heroes that are available is pointless because it does not take into account the future of the game. In any case, this post is simply an idea that likely won't be implemented, at least not on Celeborn. It's not worth the amount of arguing we are doing about it.

The whole point of these forums is discuss things, I mean argument and vitriol such as "Rapier, I won't even bother reading your post" isn't called for but the discussion of the topic itself could be interesting.

I think it's a perfectly reasonable topic to discuss (The relative power of Celebon compared with Boromir, Theoden and Dain).

It raises a lot of design questions that we could delve into. For example if we discount Dain (acknoledged as being too powerful by the design team) we can still look at how this compares with the others - although I already posted about that. Comparing to Dain will make any heroes seem weak because - well Dain is just too good.

Another question though is do we want all the global boost heroes to have the same power and feel?

Many people are disappointed that Theoden boosts all tactics heroes rather than Rohan - do we eventually want every racial trait to get a hero that boosts the whole trait?

Celebon's ability seems to be on par with Boromir for instance - +1 attack for all gondor allies all game for the cost of leaving 1 unspect resource - in the trait that has the best resource acceleration and manipulation.

On the other hand Celebon clearly is going to work well with characters being put into play and if Silvan gets a lot of cards that involve bouncing people back into your hand (such as born aloft style cards) such that you can trigger it repeatedly. Or if Silvan gets a lot of cheap allies and allies which fetch other silvan (guaranteeing an influx of cheap low power allies that you plan to only use for one or two turns anyway) Then his relative power within the trait will be pretty reasonable.

Personally I think (discounting Dain that's better than all the rest) that Celebon as is, is fine with the way they intend Silvan to play, and that if you added an additional boost to the first turn heroes then you would make Silvan theme too strong. I am assuming we get more allies in the form of the Silvan Refugee.

It also leaves open the possibility of later on getting a second Silvan hero that is all about boosting silvan heroes (and opening up an alternative style of play for the traits).

I feel like the dwarfs, while powerful have been forever locked into a single style of play because Dain is all about loads of allies - and then all the dwarf heroes from the hobbit saga are also all about the allies - and really I don't think you could feasibly play dwarfs any other way. (Despite the fact you could easily have tried to build a dwarven attachments style theme as well).

So I think it would be less good for the game to put all the power on Celeborn.

No, it would.

What do you think is cool?

No, it would.

What do you think is cool?

Сeleborn that worked on heroes.

No, it would.

What do you think is cool?

Сeleborn that worked on heroes.

This is going to become circular rather quickly - what else do you think is cool?

This thread has descended into utter chaos.

Ps, I like stuff and things.

You imply that Dain´s ability is the same but he does not give +1 defense and his ability "only" works when he is ready.

The argument that there are not that many silvan heroes right now isn´t really valid seeing as more heroes will be added at some point.

It'll be rare to get enough readying abilities on the board in round 1 to actually make use of more than 1 stat point per hero, and I really don't think giving each hero +1 of a stat for a single round would be game-breaking at all. A readying ability can potentially be.more powerful than that and can often last many rounds.

Dain's ability is a good comparison, even if it has obvious differences. It only has a 2 point stat boost, but it can potentially apply to a LOT of Dwarves and lasts from the beginning of the game until Dain dies. It has the restriction that Dain needs to be ready, but a simple readying effect can remedy that for the most part and he can always just be saved for attacking, so everyone can still get the willpower boost.

The proposed first-turn boost to three stats on Silvan heroes seems much weaker to me by comparison. We're talking about a boost that is limited to 1 turn: the turn where the players are typically the weakest, and in numerous cases, where the encounter deck can be at its strongest.

The argument about the number of Silvan heroes that are available is pointless because it does not take into account the future of the game. In any case, this post is simply an idea that likely won't be implemented, at least not on Celeborn. It's not worth the amount of arguing we are doing about it.

The whole point of these forums is discuss things, I mean argument and vitriol such as "Rapier, I won't even bother reading your post" isn't called for but the discussion of the topic itself could be interesting.

I think it's a perfectly reasonable topic to discuss (The relative power of Celebon compared with Boromir, Theoden and Dain).

It raises a lot of design questions that we could delve into. For example if we discount Dain (acknoledged as being too powerful by the design team) we can still look at how this compares with the others - although I already posted about that. Comparing to Dain will make any heroes seem weak because - well Dain is just too good.

Another question though is do we want all the global boost heroes to have the same power and feel?

Many people are disappointed that Theoden boosts all tactics heroes rather than Rohan - do we eventually want every racial trait to get a hero that boosts the whole trait?

Celebon's ability seems to be on par with Boromir for instance - +1 attack for all gondor allies all game for the cost of leaving 1 unspect resource - in the trait that has the best resource acceleration and manipulation.

On the other hand Celebon clearly is going to work well with characters being put into play and if Silvan gets a lot of cards that involve bouncing people back into your hand (such as born aloft style cards) such that you can trigger it repeatedly. Or if Silvan gets a lot of cheap allies and allies which fetch other silvan (guaranteeing an influx of cheap low power allies that you plan to only use for one or two turns anyway) Then his relative power within the trait will be pretty reasonable.

Personally I think (discounting Dain that's better than all the rest) that Celebon as is, is fine with the way they intend Silvan to play, and that if you added an additional boost to the first turn heroes then you would make Silvan theme too strong. I am assuming we get more allies in the form of the Silvan Refugee.

It also leaves open the possibility of later on getting a second Silvan hero that is all about boosting silvan heroes (and opening up an alternative style of play for the traits).

I feel like the dwarfs, while powerful have been forever locked into a single style of play because Dain is all about loads of allies - and then all the dwarf heroes from the hobbit saga are also all about the allies - and really I don't think you could feasibly play dwarfs any other way. (Despite the fact you could easily have tried to build a dwarven attachments style theme as well).

So I think it would be less good for the game to put all the power on Celeborn.

I don't think Celeborn needs to boost heroes especially since most are decently powerful. I still don't think it'd be too powerful to have the 1-turn boost, but that seems to be a matter of opinion. It'd still be an interesting/cool effect, which what Tue whole point of this thread is. I think we may have over-stayed our welcome on this topic, so I'm just gonna he done now.

Any time trololo makes a thread it always turns into this. Some of you guys care way too much about what the others think; It doesn't matter....it's someone you don't know..... Ridiculous.......

Long shot I know, but I'm hoping we see out first 0 cost ally in the Silvan family, it would fit perfectly, especially if they can easily ping pong back to your hand somehow.

And no I don't count Bill the Pony, printed 0

Long shot I know, but I'm hoping we see out first 0 cost ally in the Silvan family, it would fit perfectly, especially if they can easily ping pong back to your hand somehow.

It would fit perfectly - but what sort of card are you expecting it to be?

An errand rider without an action? It would be a card that's only purpose would be to be used with Celeborn?

A 0 cost Outlands card is another possiiblity (A card with 0 for every stat except 1 hitpoint, and the outlands trait - it could even have 0 hitpoints although then you could only play it if they had the hitpoint outland card in play).

I doubt they go back to Outlands any time soon (at least I hope). I was thinking something with 0/0/0/1 that could have a passive benefit upon entering or leaving play. Reducing threat or card draw would probably be difficult to balance, but maybe adding a statistic (1 or 1 or 1) to another character. Would fit perfectly with the other Silvan cards. FFG, please make this happen as I am awful at custom cards.

Come to think of it, it could even be neutral, as the Elves dabbled in all spheres of influence.

I doubt they go back to Outlands any time soon (at least I hope). I was thinking something with 0/0/0/1 that could have a passive benefit upon entering or leaving play. Reducing threat or card draw would probably be difficult to balance, but maybe adding a statistic (1 or 1 or 1) to another character. Would fit perfectly with the other Silvan cards. FFG, please make this happen as I am awful at custom cards.

I like the idea, the issue is that being an ally is better than being an event for anything you'd play in the planning phase. Having an extra person to take hits in the combat step is always useful. (You'd need to look at 0 cost events for comparable power - and all of them involve paying in another way except stand together).

So realistically to get a 0 cost ally you're going to need an ally that exhausts another ally as it comes into play (that being part of the cost) and it would have to also have poor stats.

It also needs to be worse than 2/0/0/1 Forced: if a character leaves play discard [this card] from play. Since Silvan refugee is cost 1.

However something like:

[This card]

Cost 0

1

0

0

1

SIlvan

Forced: When [this card] is put into play, exhaust one character you control.

Now normally this would be pretty poor (you're wasting the turn of of your allies or heroes that will almost certainly be better used with it's own stats) It would have limited use outside of Celeborn, but with him it's pretty good. (Similar themed cards could chain together round after round).

Another option would be something similar with the rule changed to:

Forced: After [this card] exhausts , at the end of the phase remove it from play. This would effectively be 0 cost for a 1 time defence or 1 willpower (better with Celeborn, and it works two times with Galadriel). This is similar to Escort from Edoras (Which is cost 2 for 4 willpower or 1 defence).

Both versions would be cheap ways to pay for certain card effects though, so it may be that it's still not feasible to reduce an ally to cost 0, for other balance reasons that aren't immediately occurring to me. They open up some potentially interesting things though - both versions would make horn of Gondor actually make resources (instead of really being an offset to the cost of allies as it is now).

I like your idea of making them neutral. They could be called Traveler to Valinor (neutral because they're losing their ties to the world of men). I think the second version is more likely as Edoras sets a precedent for it although both may be okay.

Just make a 0 cost ally with stats 0,0,0,1 and give it no ability. Make it Leadership sphere and Silvan. That would combo amazingly with Celeborn.