I think with the main AoR book and a copy of the old Imperial Sourcebook from WEG, one would be able to put together something without too much difficulty and a little bit of GM legwork.

Not everyone has access to the old WEG sourcebook or the ability to get it. Better to say with the AoR book and access to wookiepedia one can run an Imperial game.

That's just not true.

I stand corrected. But if you're just looking for fluff, I think wookiepedia would suffice. Now if there are adventure ideas and such, a sourcebook may have some advantage.

I don't want an Empire CRB, I'm pretty sure they'd muck it up. What I do want, however, are SW dice where the Empire emblem isn't the "bad things happen" icon.

I don't want an Empire CRB, I'm pretty sure they'd muck it up. What I do want, however, are SW dice where the Empire emblem isn't the "bad things happen" icon.

Just reverse their use.

Am I the only one that doesn't care about what is/isn't SW canon? SW canon only matters for what elements the movies and a few other things will stay true to, and it really doesn't matter to my games one bit. Why do so many people have this fixation on canon? To me, this fixation really seems unhealthy to the actual enjoyment of SW.

This, So much this.

I cherry pick the **** out the EU and use what I want, discard what I don't and make up extra bits that suit my story if need be. I tend to keep vehicles, weapons, and bits of technology from the EU along with some of the major iconic characters/places like Karrde, Thrawn/The Chiss, the Hapans, the Corporate Sector.

In my games the only events/characters/places that are absolute cannon were the things that actually happened on screen in the films (both PT and OT) as well as things that were alluded to, but never explicitly shown on film i.e. Sifo-Diyas, Darth Plagus, Ord Mantell. The only thing I reject outright from the PT is midichlorins.

As far as the Imps and their good guy/bad guy status, i take the popular opinion of:

Empire as institution == bad;

All members of Empire != bad

That being said I still make my PCs play as rebels (they could be former imps)

I don't want an Empire CRB, I'm pretty sure they'd muck it up. What I do want, however, are SW dice where the Empire emblem isn't the "bad things happen" icon.

Just reverse their use.

The dice are not equal. Bad dice are slightly inferior in number of symbols to good dice.

I don't want an Empire CRB, I'm pretty sure they'd muck it up. What I do want, however, are SW dice where the Empire emblem isn't the "bad things happen" icon.

Just reverse their use.

The dice are not equal. Bad dice are slightly inferior in number of symbols to good dice.

That should make the stormtroopers' combat checks screen-accurate, then.

I don't want an Empire CRB, I'm pretty sure they'd muck it up. What I do want, however, are SW dice where the Empire emblem isn't the "bad things happen" icon.

Just reverse their use.

The dice are not equal. Bad dice are slightly inferior in number of symbols to good dice.

That should make the stormtroopers' combat checks screen-accurate, then.

I'm sure the troopers on the Tantive, in Echo Base and a couple treeloads of teddy bears will sleep easier knowing that.

Oh wait, Stormtroopers killed them all.

The Empire is evil. It was always intended this way. That is why in the first film they come up with the plan of building a weapon capable of blowing up planets, even if this makes no practical sense. It's just because that's what Space Opera bad guys do, they blow up planets. There is no way around this (I have to say I do find some of the Imperial apologism I find in some forums very odd).

Now, this doesn't mean they can't have cool things (Star Destroyers), and better uniforms than the good guys, and it certainly doesn't mean you can't play Individual Imperial Characters who aren't too bad (I have had exactly such characters in my d6 Star Wars game). However, I would be very puzzled if an Empire rulebook was published. A sidebar in a sourcebook (or even the corebook) suggesting playing ex-Imperials, or not to always the Empire portrayed as cartoon villains, but and out and out book for playing as the bad guys? Star Wars is a black and white universe. It doesn't make a whole load of sense for the game to encourage you to play the bad guys. It isn't 40k were talking about here.

The vogons could blow up planets. They weren't evil per se... just beuracratic jerks.

Hyperspace lanes don't make themselves.

In the movies the black and whites hats are the only ones distributed in the movies and serve their purpose. Fine for movies that last 90-140 minutes.

The problem is that such a clear cut of good/bad works horribly in an RPG and an universe that got/gets expanded by books, games and whatnot.

Especially if your 'first' customers get older and their tastes change. I was in love with the movies when i watched them on TV back in '88 (already 26 years ago) and i still watch them on BR (and ignore the changes), but by now my tastes have changed and i do find several things in the OT almost comically bad/bland.

The Legends EU gave us several good characters and stories on all sides of the conflict with believable mo

tivations. It added the necessary grey shades to make the universe feel more mature and organic. Does it change the Empire shwon in the OT to not being evil? No, it clearly is evil.

Does that mean the whole Empire in the RPG has to be evil? Hell no, we have the time to make it as evil or grey as we want and need to.

@borithan: The Death Star made sense politically and militarily since it was meant as a deterrent against rebellion. If it had not been destroyed in EP IV no planet would have dared to support the Rebells since it would result in getting your entire planet destroyed.

While in RL armed groups can hide in caves and bunkers well protected from atomic bombs such things are futile against the DS. And you can't destroy it. Either die with your planet or submit.

I can understand the Empire is the bad guys from fringers and some of the alien races which are enslaved, but realistically to the majority of the Core-worlds and major Imperial human colonies and even some of the alien races closely allied with the Imperials, the Empire is the good guys. The troopers and crew really believe they are doing the right thing for the galaxy and the rebels are a bunch of terrorists trying to ruin it. There's a reason Coruscant had to be taken by force several years after Endor and the Core worlds didn't immediately join the New Republic. So while the Senior leadership (and not even all of them) were bad guys, most people below them simply did their jobs to the best or worst(sure they had slackers too) of their ability to make money and support their families. Can you imagine the Imperial PR campaign about those cowardly terrorists that killed tens of thousands of innocent workers and personnel at the second deathstar? Talk about 9/11 furor, the military probably had more recruits than they could train.

I can understand the Empire is the bad guys from fringers and some of the alien races which are enslaved, but realistically to the majority of the Core-worlds and major Imperial human colonies and even some of the alien races closely allied with the Imperials, the Empire is the good guys. The troopers and crew really believe they are doing the right thing for the galaxy and the rebels are a bunch of terrorists trying to ruin it. There's a reason Coruscant had to be taken by force several years after Endor and the Core worlds didn't immediately join the New Republic. So while the Senior leadership (and not even all of them) were bad guys, most people below them simply did their jobs to the best or worst(sure they had slackers too) of their ability to make money and support their families. Can you imagine the Imperial PR campaign about those cowardly terrorists that killed tens of thousands of innocent workers and personnel at the second deathstar? Talk about 9/11 furor, the military probably had more recruits than they could train.

Except this game is deliberately designed to go with the point of view of the folks that the general audience perceives as the good guys, those being the Rebels, with the movies themselves positing that anyone with the image of the Empire as a benevolent or even really being a good thing for the galaxy is wrong.

What you're asking for is the RPG equivalent of a game where the PCs play agents of Nazi Germany during WW2. Intentional or not on Lucas' part, the Galactic Empire in the films has some very strong similarities to that real-world group. And to this day, being associated with said group is never a good thing; the Pope that retired about a year or so ago caught flak for being part of a Hitler Youth Group, and that was over half a century ago.

As myself and others have said, folks wanting to play pro-Imperial PCs are a tiny niche of a niche customer base in what is still a niche market

You do re

. Can you imagine the Imperial PR campaign about those cowardly terrorists that killed tens of thousands of innocent workers and personnel at the second deathstar? Talk about 9/11 furor, the military probably had more recruits than they could train.

Why do people assume that there were civilians working on the Death Star II? It was a top secret military construction project, and bait for a trap. Its very likely IMO that it was built strictly by Imperial military engineers and droids with no civilians allowed near it than that there were thousands of innocent workers on it. And I don't think anyone would ever claim that the Death Star was not a legitimate military target.

And I don't think anyone would ever claim that the Death Star was not a legitimate military target.

Just like the Pentagon, right?

And I don't think anyone would ever claim that the Death Star was not a legitimate military target.

Just like the Pentagon, right?

Ok make that anyone being objective in their analysis.or even seriously attempting to pretend to do so.

The 747s and the World Trade Center were all civilian targets but the Pentagon is a military command center and if that's not a military target what is?

That IMO is where the line between a guerrilla soldier and a terrorist lays. A guerrilla does what they can to minimize the number of innocents caught in their attacks whereas terrorist will aim for both civilian and military targets if they feel destroying the targets will aid their goals.

Ok make that anyone being objective in their analysis.or even seriously attempting to pretend to do so.

The 747s and the World Trade Center were all civilian targets but the Pentagon is a military command center and if that's not a military target what is?

I forgot my sarcasm tags on that one. Sorry. And, while I was playing Devil's Advocate there, I do think that the destruction of a "legitimate military target" can still inspire the type of situation being described by Tropheus. Perhaps the attack on Pearl Harbor would have been a better example.

I know George Lucas likes to think that Star Wars is a simple morality tale where "who cares, they're just bugs?" and "Millions of tons of molten steel from the Death Star II didn't rain down on the Forest Moon of Endor because I said so" are phrases that get thrown around, but I think a serious, objective look at Star Wars reveals it to be perhaps a bit more complex than Mr. Lucas originally intended. Not all of the Imperials are mustache-twirling villains, and not all of the Rebels are shining heroes.

I don't think all Imperials are evil. Hell I've been in parties of Non-evil Imperials in campaigns, though they were usually on the fringes of the Empire until well after Endor (The one time the party was part of the Death Squadron we ended up defecting en masse a few weeks after the events of Shadows of the Empire.) But at the point where the current FFG RPGs take place the system was rotten as can be, and the fact that there were many imperials, whom were almost certainly very rare, if not non-existent, in the upper ranks, that honestly thought they were doing the right thing doesn't change that.

And while I agree that the scenario Tropheus.described can be sparked by an attack on a military target I think that will be much harder to carry out when the target is a Death Star.

It has been said before, but the thing is Star Wars is no longer a group of 3 movies each about 90+ minutes long.

It is a 3 decades old sci fantasy setting that grew beyond the creators imagination and became so much more.

For those 90+ minutes movies the Empire as the big Evil work very well.

But as soon as we go beyond that .... a lot of questions pop up.

How did they run things?

How did they stay in power so long?

Why are there so few rebells?

...

Suddenly in order to have your Evil be more realistic/understandable/interesting/plausible/... as a Game Designer (I am not one) and as a GM we have to think how the Empire works down even to a day-to-day basis.

Taxes, goverment structures, normal police activities, trade routes, entertainment for the public and many other things.

After all we want this universe to feel alive, plausible, and somewhat familiar to feel ... at home.

And as soon as that happens the movie-evil clichees go right out the airlock.

Sure, we pull them back in when we need them to tell a good story but not when we talk about a complete universe.

One dastardly moustache-twirling enemy can be fun, if it fits in he'll be there.

But every imperial officer and governeur being a sadistic, trecherous, xenophobic dog-kicking bastard?

No, just plain no. That makes neither for good stories nor any sense in the context of the whole universe.

If we bring up the Nazis then lets do so.

Was the 3rd Reich evil and needed to go? YES!

Was every soldier, officer, official and citizen evil? NO!

My grandfather was like many men at that time pressed into service and served on the western front during WWII.

Was he an evil person? Not that i could tell.

In all the 15 years at the end of his live where i could talk to him i have never heard him hear make even a single rassistic remark. He had no higher education, was a simple worker at the freight railstation moving goods around and believed in simple honest work.

Was he proud of what he did back then during the war shooting at french and american soldiers? No.

He barely talked about the war since he felt ashamed for what he (in his mind) was forced to do back then.

I am not playing devils advocate but whenever the discussion goes into that direction my blood pressure rises a bit. After all many of those 'evil imperials' would be very normal people just trying to do whats right for them and their families.

Seeing as FFG is covering every angle you can think of from 40k...I'd be shocked if there wasn't an Empire sourcebook at some point. It's not like they'll stop at Force & Destiny...

I think the better historical culture to relate the Empire to is the Roman Empire. Pax Romania had many positives along with the brutality of roman conquest. You can easily relate Star Wars to the turn from roman republic to empire. Is the Emperor more or less evil than Caesar? Did the Empire create the ability to travel and interaction between cultures that the Romans did?

Seeing as FFG is covering every angle you can think of from 40k...I'd be shocked if there wasn't an Empire sourcebook at some point. It's not like they'll stop at Force & Destiny...

Source-book yes. I can see a source-book of Empire information. Not an RPG the likes of EotE, AoR or F&D. Running Empire games will be left to individual gamers to do.

(art!)

I see your...drawings, and raise you an Ukitakumuki.

And I don't think you need any other reason than this image, and others like it, for why an Imperial sourcebook would be desired by the community: Because it looks cool to the players. Yes they built a superweapon that blows up innocent planets. Yes, their command is lead by the embodiment of pure evil. Yes, they practice speciesism and rule the galaxy with an iron grip of fear.

But that is some awesome looking armor. And who doesn't like the guns-blazing solution with armored backup?

A book exploring the inner policies and special equipment issued to Imperial troops and armor would not be amiss. It would be everything informative about the Empire ever, from Stormtrooper commands to how sector deployments are arranged to inform GMs. There would be specific career paths for Imperial players to permit an Imperial campaign or provide backgrounds for defectors or deserters from the empire.

TIE Fighter the flight sim did an interesting job of portraying a protagonist perspecitve as an agent of the Empire. They work to maintain order, to prevent terrorism, secure space, crack down on pirates, and rein in the rogue elements of the Empire who have tried to usurp the throne. There aren't genocide missions, but from a GM perspective I can imagine setting up an Imperial campaign tracking down an imperial warlord who lets his might get to his head. Could enlist the Rebels for moral gains or scum for financial gains when taking that warlord down.

After reading a bunch of these Good Imperial/Bad Imperial arguments and deciding where I sit on this I've come to a conclusion: No matter how you cut it, the Imperials will always be the Bad Guys. Sure you got folks who really think they're doing good and maintaining order for the good of the world/galaxy, but when it comes down to it, they're really supporting some messed up stuff no matter how much they try to whitewash over it. For the purposes of showing a fictional universe, the Imperials are the bad guys even if individual elements of the Empire aren't necessarily evil.

If I get back into GMing again (I closed my game down last week due to work and school), I'm really going with the Wolfenstein New Order vibe for the Imperials. For what the Imperials were depicted as in the movies, I think its perfect. In their minds, they're building a glorious civilization based on rule of law, while marginalizing or purging any non-conforming or undesirable elements. Any reported atrocities are either censored or put in a light that "Well they were anarchist and seperatist trying to ruin our lives anyways, who cares?"

Talking about "White Imperials" as it were, I wonder if there are some really scummy rebels out there that just use the title to spread some anarchy in the name of overthrowing the empire. Mon Mothma can say what she wants but even she doesn't vet every single Rebel resistance cell out there.

There are a few cases in the EU of people being kicked out of the Alliance because of being willing to target civilians,who aided the Empire, the example group given planned to kill a child actor who starred in Imperial propaganda films for example.

There was also Bria, AKA Han's first love, who eventually became a Resistance and than Alliance task force commander after dumping him in response to his marriage proposal. Her unit and several others hired smugglers, including Han and Lando, to help raid a major spice and slavery operation. The smugglers were supposed to get first dibs on any spice or treasures found, and most of the rebel groups stuck to that but Bria decided to take all the good stuff for the Alliance and leave the junk for the smugglers. She also decided to frame Han for being in on her plot, because she thought that with his fellow smugglers very angry with him, and thinking he had cheated them he would have no choice but join the Alliance. The last part did not work out very well.