As we know, the Imperium is a distinctively mediavael and feudal setting in its attitudes and many (though not all) of its cultures. Thats why the concept of planetary nobility is so widespread and why many roles (be they lowly such as Cog Maintainer #58 to the mighty Heir of the Imperial Commander) are hereditary.

Now the Adeptus Astartes are just as mediavael in their own attitudes- especially in terms of honour, personal martial expertise etc. But since they dont seem to have kids, they've escaped the idea of hereditary bloodlines outside of the concept of descent from Primarchs.

Except they dont quite.... They have the genetic seed which transforms a man into a Marine, the progenoid glands which could act as a surrogate descent line.

So, would it be likely to have an Adeptus Astartes chapter who believe that the successor to the Chapter Master, Librarian, Chaplain etc, should be one of the 2 marines who recieved their predeccessors progenoid seed? A hereditary chain of scuccession based not on biological descent, but progenoid implantation? Since apparently the glands can be harvested after 20 years or so without killing the original marine, this also allows the "Father" to train up his "sons" as well.

Thoughts? Any problems with such an Astartes chapter based off this concept rather than individual merit?

SJE

SJE said:

As I mentioned in another thread SJE, progenoid glands are basically glands the secrete/absorb genetic material (the original glands containing the pure DNA of the Primarchs themselves!). Thus, yes you could in theory "remove the glands without killing the original marine", but you'd be crippling the marine in the process seeing as how they'd be denied their constant influx of "divine" genetic material. ((Interesting factoid, Marines are also all made sterile, which is why they don't have kids or any interest in the opposite sex... except for the Emperor's Children (Slaaneshi Marines), but that's a whole different and very disturbing story)).

Thus, I hate to say it, but your idea of father raising sons wouldn't happen seeing as how you'd be crippling a proven veteran, making him more likely to die than two unproven newbies (though if you read some of the older Black Library lore as opposed to the bastardized current version, the Sergeants would often fill the role of surrogate older brother, the Chaplains would act as a surrogate father/mother, and the Chapter Master a surrogate Grandfather and the like, meaning that the kind of thing you propose with a family does happen in a way).

Also, to become a Librarian the marine must be born a psyker and manifest powers between the ages of 12-19 like everybody else. No help from the progenoid glands there.

All that said, your idea isn't too far off the mark, truth be known. I know William King mentioned this in one of his Ragnar series: Those who inherit the progenoid glands of Chapter Masters, Chaplains, etc. usually end up becoming Chapter Masters, Chaplains, etc. through merit, thereby making there a series of "lucky" progenoid glands that almost seem to garauntee their bearer greatness.

Removing the progenoid glands doesnt cripple the Marine - think of it as the Marine is the incubator for them for the first 20 years- after maturation, they can be removed without harm to either Marine or gland. If you have a source that says otherwise, can you cite it?

thx.

SJE

SJE said:

I don't have a source saying that, seeing as how in the entire 23 year of Warhammer 40k history there's never been a recorded case of the glands being taken out of a marine pre-mortem. Though I have plenty of sources in regards to the geneseed containing the genetic materials of the Primarch ranging from Rogue Trader to the Horus Heresy series (for the best example, see Horus Aximond and how when he got the Progenoid glands he suddenly became the spitting image of Horus or how, unlike the 40th millennia, in the 30th millennia all the Space Marines had an uncanny resemblance to their Primarchs when they grow up into full-fledged marines post-progenoid insertion).

These two pieces of information combine lead me to that conclusion. After all, if a progenoid gland really could be removed after the first 20 years without *ANY* ill side-effects, I'd think that all the marine chapters would have developed a policy of removal and the like. Wouldn't you agree with me?

There would be more Marines if they could be removed after 20 years, but thats only an assumption, I have never seen any fluff that officialy sided with either way.

But, to correct you, having just finished Horus Rising, not all the marines resemble the patriarchs. Some do, some dont.

Peacekeeper_b said:

It's funny peacekeeper, I was just thinking of that with Iacton Cruz. Of course, that brings us into "missing legion" territory (there is mention in the third book of the Blood Angels series that at least one of the founding legions, if not both, was broken up and their marines divided among the rest of the legions along with genesede) in addition to adding in factors like how many marines were lost during said Heresy, diluting some of the geneseeds while leaving other relatively intact.

As said before, fluff has never sided either way, but there'd be that natural assumption that if there were no harmful side effects the marines would then be storing their geneseed, if not rapidly expanding (before anyone mentions the Codex Astrates, remember that there are 2,500+ Black Templars in existence seeing as how they're all relatively self-sufficient, then there's Russ who did the Leman Russ thing and just laughed at said Codex).

Actually, it's more the other way around: If the geneseed couldn't be removed after 20 years, the chapters would be long extinct.

Think about it:

Every marine that dies before the 20 years are up has doomed his gene-seed, because I don't believe one can implant "half-grown" seed. Note that this is still during their Scout time, where they're at their most vulnerable. Also remember that quite a few marines don't even make it through their training, with several orders taking the "the worthy will survive"-attitude.

Every marine that dies in a situation where it's impossible to recover his body also dooms his gene seed. Now imagine the forces necessary to kill a marine - would they usually leave a body that was even recognizable?

Let's assume that the marine's body is intact. What would the enemy do with it? Stuff killed by Necrons simply disintegrates. Tyranids have a tendency to eat fallen foes along with everything else. Chaos knows about the Geneseed and would likely love the chance to get some that isn't warped beyond recognition. Orks would probably destroy the gland located in the neck while beheading the marine for the boss' pointy stick.

So we now have an enemy that doesn't somehow destroy the body of a marine. What is the usual method of deployment for them? Deeply behind enemy lines where a hundred men can make a difference. If one of their attacks fail, that very likely means they get wiped out and there will be noone nearby to recover their bodies.

All in all, it's a virtual necessity that one of the geneseed is harvested while the marine is alive because that keeps the marines' numbers at least constant and can buffer the chapter for the times where they lose massive numbers, for example when a barge is shot down.

Baron- my source is the new Space Marine Codex. On p. 11 it says "Progenoids- Gene seeds. Every Space Marine has these organs, one implanted in the neck and another in the chest. The organs respond to the presence of other implants in the body by creating germ cells corresponding to those implants. There germ cells grow and are stored in the progenoid organs. Mature progenoid organs can be removed and the new implants artificially cultured from them. This is the only way new implants can be created, so a Chapter depends upon its Space Marines to create other Space Marines."

So, while 20 years may be an arbitrary figure I plucked out of nowhere, the Codex description doesnt say that you have to wait for death before the organs can be removed- merely until they are mature. Nor are the progenoids necessary for the correct functioning of the existing Marines other implants and special organs, rather the correct functioning of the Marines body is necessary for the progenoids to absorb that genetic data and mature.

Now, how do we explain why Apothecaries get busy with their Reductors in the fiction when Marines die? Some Chapters may have taboos about removing healthy organs until needed. Or perhaps the maturity of the organs is extremely long or the Marine in question very young. Some in the past have suggested that while it might be easy to remove the chest progenoid, perhaps the neck progenoid is in critical location and even controlled surgery has the chance of killing the marine by accident, so the neck progenoid is only removed at point of death?

SJE

Never forgetting the fact that Each chapter has to send a Tithe of organs to Terra/Mars not only for inspection of taint but also for the storage banks for future foundings. So a Marine having to die/be Crippled when the organs harvested is a bit tosh really.

I'll note that there has, recently, been an example of a marine whose progenoids have been removed in vivo: there is a Wolf Lord (iirc) in the recent Tales of Heresy anthology. Also, I recall a mention of an active-duty marine sans progenoids in Brothers of the Snake, alhough I could well be wrong about that.

I'll also throw in my .02 TG: the neck gland matures at least a decade or so earlier than the chest, and is probably actually in a better position to be removed easily, as to get to the chest gland you have to essentially either cut down from the top of the rib cage- probably doing serious damage to the trachea/oesophagus, not to mention risk cutting several vital blood vessels, and then they have to avoid damage to the lungs and probably at least three other internal organs; or crack through the black carapace, and the solid mass of super-dense bone that is an astartes' ribcage.

Either way, it's not the sort of thing that I'd really like to try without the resources of the Chapter's Fortress Monastery Apothecarion, while the removal of the neck gland is actually probably easier- true, you can't come in from behind or from one side, thanks to the carotids, jugulars and cervical vertebrae, but a simple tracheotomy would give the operating apothecary access to the progenoid, and can be healed with far less chance of complications, probably meaning that a company, or even a squad apothecary can perform it on campaign and have the astartes patient up and about in under a week.

As for the idea of hereditary aristocracy via progenoid lines- I think it's probably possible, if unusual

Now, how do we explain why Apothecaries get busy with their Reductors in the fiction when Marines die? Some Chapters may have taboos about removing healthy organs until needed. Or perhaps the maturity of the organs is extremely long or the Marine in question very young.

IIRC, the progenoid glands absorb experience and "strength" from the marine during his life, so that a gland that has matured over a few centuries of warfare indeed produces a better marine. This would make the safe course of action to remove one gland as fast as possible to keep the numbers constant and leave the second one in to mature further and hope that the marine will die in a way that it can be recovered.

This would also lend credence to Marines that have special "fathers" being treated differently, though I assume that Marine "culture" would mean he will have a hard time living up to the legacy of his progenitor instead of being able to rest on his laurels and getting the captainship thrust upon him together with his carapace.

I believe i once read it takes 5 years for the glands to mature, since that in extreme cases where there numbers are very low they are forced grow them in hosts for the sake of numbers, so the chapter could double its numbers every 5 years if need be. This might have been specialy hastened, but was not mentioned.

Maturation ages aside, I think the idea of hereditary commands, legacies and dynasties is particularly fascinating one. Many folks IRL refer to 'academic families' in the broad sense: Your teachers/tutors/lecturers your parents, your pupils/students/proteges your kids. Indeed, here at St Andrews they've even went a bit further and permit a rather loose system of adoption of younger students and encourage 'families' to develop. The possibility of a similar form within an Astartes chapter is not only 'not unthinkable' but I'd say 'pretty **** likely!'.

Good call, SJE!

Another St. Andrean? I was at St. A's in 1996-2000 and had the whole joy of academic families. Including the academic family incest.

SJE

The Creation of a Space marine has stated since it was written (in the late 80s early 90s) that the progenoid glands mature and can be removed FIVE YEARS after implantation.

Here is a virtual word for word quote from the text I'm talking about:

wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gene-seed

There is also nothing in the background that talks about 'strength' being absorbed by the progenoids afaik. Once the five years is up, they are ready to be harvested.

It is quite possible that a marine is on continuous assignment for a long enough time that the progenoids mature within them without being able to be removed. The Reductor seems to be a rather LETHAL method of removing them and only used on dying space marines . To remove them without killing the marine requires extensive surgery, something they may not have time to perform. The last recourse of the reductor then is often used because of the constant warfooting marines are on.

I really like the idea of astartes noble families. However, I think you'd have to make a decision on which recruits are promising before they actually became marines. You can't really give them the awesome genes AFTER they are a marine, so you'd have to decide at recruitment that young Bob is a worthy Aspirant and will do well filling brother Fred's shoes.

There's nothing wrong with that, but you don't get to see whether that potential gets realised until AFTER they become marines, by which time it's too late to do anything about it. Oh crap, Bob rejected his implants, oh well.

Perhaps this particular chapter has a strong Librarius that uses the Tarot to read the future of aspirants? That way they have a better understanding of how successful they will be and thus can at least ATTEMPT to direct the progenoids to those destined for greatness.

I really like the idea of Fathers instead of Brothers. I am Bob, sired by Fred etc.

Hellebore

Xisor said:

Xisor? Do you bear any resemblance to a Xisor on Black Library now?

Anyway, do what you will SJE, Dark Heresy isn't held down by a strict guidelines as Tabletop, but as said, it goes against fluff as things are (If I wanted, I could start pulling out books like Dark Imperium (Apothecary), Rogue Trader (their section on Space Marines), the 3rd edition Space Marine Codex, and quite a few others that say the only time a marine's glands be harvested is post-mortem). There's also the wee issue it goes against the Codex Astrates (had to play that card) and it goes against the grain of the Space Marine's whole entire founding principal of it being the one place in the Imperium where little things like heredity play absolutely no role and you're judged solely upon your abilities.

And Hellebore, don't quote Lexicanum. You'll find that they're one of the worst sources for actual information (for example, it is made *EXPLICITELY* clear in Xenology that the Old Ones were the Eldar/Ork Gods, yet they refuse to let anybody post this seeing as how it "goes against the 2nd Edition Eldar Codex" and "is just a theory"... oh yes, and the person who told me this admitted to me that he doesn't even own the book *rolls eyes*). Read anything written by William King (who is still involved in the creation process of GW if nothing else, thank god... oh yes, and by anything I mean any of his 40k works, somehow I don't think Gotrek has to worry about geneseed, though it would explain a lot about his survivability ). He commonly makes mention to the progenoids absorbing strength and is a current/very reliable source

Also, I have yet to read Tales of Heresy, but *DO NOT TAKE ANYTHING IN BROTHERS OF THE SNAKE AS CANON*! A single Space Marine kills a warhost of 1,000 Dark Eldar, at times using unrealistic manners of murder, such as bowling with severed heads and the like. Enough said.

And, as for how they'd get more geneseed with only harvesting the dead: Think about how many marines die, the amount of progenoid glands there are (enough to spawn a second chapter) and also the amount of protection that those progenoid glands have (by the way, this is why there is almost always an Apothecary on all missions and they're given a weapon that very quickly and brutally redacts said geneseed). Also remember that there are Fleshost grown geneseeds (if Lexicanum were a better resource they'd have mentioned this). Each chapter has access to what are essentially cloned/servitor bodies with which they can insert geneseed, let it grow, extract it, and insert it. That's how new Chapters are created when the High Lords of Terra order it by the by.

It's quoted from the creation of a space marine article, published in white dwarf something or other (twice, once when it first came out and second during the index astartes series) and then published in the Index Astartes books, all of which I OWN.

So, yes it DOES say they can be pulled out in 5 years, I only linked the Lexicanum article because it's the only ONLINE quotation of that article written by Rick Priestley.

If you own the Index Astartes books, go and read the Creation of a Space marine. That is what it says. Up until recently the GW website also had that article published on it.. Now that they have reformatted their website all their old articles are no longer on the site.

web.archive.org/web/20071227215341rn_1/uk.games-workshop.com/spacemarines/initiation/2/

Here is a link to the archived page from GW's website, explicitly stating 5 years and 10 years. That's from GW's OWN WEBSITE. Thus progenoids can be removed from a space marine after 5 or 10 years depending on their location.

QED.

Hellebore

Well now Mr. Hellbore, it seems I am mistaken and I am a big enough man to admit that I'm wrong. However, at the same time you'll notice that they make explicit mention of the geneseed absorbing genetic material and the like in your article. Therefore, visa vi, yes it would be possible for a marine chapter to "sire", but at the same time they'd be extremely weak marines, so that evens things out.

Oh yes, and if you happen to be a certain Hellebore who I RP with... don't be disagreeing with me just because of the fact that my character has a large amount of insanity points .

Yes the progenoids absorb the genetic material, that's their purpose. They absorb the geneseed of each organ so that when they are removed those seeds can be pulled out and implanted in another marine. When they've matured it means they've incorporated all the geneseed from the different organs so they will be fully ready to create a new marine in toto.

The Creation of a Space Marine article also iirc mentions that forced growing of those organs in servitors can generate the necessary organs for 1000 marines in 55 years:

web.archive.org/web/20071227215341rn_1/uk.games-workshop.com/spacemarines/initiation/3/

These are referred to as healthy organs. So I don't think that just because they are removed after 10 years that the subsequent implantee will necessarily be a 'weakened' marine. They don't really go into whether or not the length of time spent in a marine affects the geneseed, simply that they are mature after 5 or 10 years and can be removed after that. Not sure that spending extra time in the marine would really do much though.

Well if I am who you think I am, Insanity Points, you're lucky you didn't get more for the crazy stunts you guys pulled. I still can't quite believe how easily you managed to wade through a Carnosaur, sabre wolves, and a squad of arbitrators...

Hellebore

SJE, indeed, it's tremendous hearing another one of us out here (Incidentally, I ran a DH event for last year's GameSoc 'day' thing, folks seemed to enjoy it). And yes, the academic incest has rather endearing rewards (and, as we can expect, draws some terrific looks)

TheBaron, yes, I'm the one and same Xisor (also Warseer, TauOnline, Specialist Games, AmmoBunker, Wordpress, Bebo and TacComms), I had a slight suspicion you'd be the same. The whole 'being adamantly, argumentatively and utterly wrong' thing gave you away!

Anyway, I'm very intrigued by this hereditary thing. Lots of ideas afloat.

OK I've bean playing 40K since day dot, from near a quarter century of experience I can tell you this, you can harvest the Gland Sacs from about five years after Implantation or last harvest, but the chance of Viability of some or all Seeds is very low and increases exponentially till the Gland Sac reaches 20 years, when they normally remove the continence surgically, it takes the Sac about a year to heal and start it's next production cycle. the Sac it's self once removed from the Host can act as a storage vessel for the seed for up to a few hours depending on the outside environment (but it's not recommended as once past a few muinits viability beguines to drop off).

Also apart from the Progenitors Leageasy their is also a Hosts Legeasy, a Strong Host produces Strong Seed, Strong Seed produces Strong Marines. also A Librarians Seed can be implanted in to a Lantant Psyker, this will help the Psyker Awaken in a controlled manner and produce new Librarians, They test for Psyker Latancy to ensure a supply of Librarians.

Ah, Xisor, it seems I have been neglecting your ritual beatings far too long. You've grown soft in the time I've been away from the BL forums. I can't believe you've forgotten that I am never wrong.

You see, seeing as how the progenoid glands absorb genetic material, you could do the whole "sire" thing, but that would cause your Chapter to have weak marines who would be about as much of a threat as an enemy cruiser being in outerspace (as opposed to the other Chapters who would be the equivelant of an invasion fleet). Thus it is why you should not remove the glands, thus why no marine chapter in their right mind would possibly do that seeing as how they'd be weakening the chapter overall, thus why even though I messed up a detail there I'm still absolutely correct. (Remember mate, for a while I was going for a law degree; therefore it is impossible to win an argument with me short of paying me a retainer to take your side )

That said, you should come onto Faith's Sanity Lost boards, this way I can once more beat you back into shape and remind you of what it is to be a manly uber-nerd as opposed to a mewling spawn of geekdom. By the time we've finished talking, you will be navigating multi-dimensional arrays, trashing Abnett (I find it hilarious that he, a "Grim/Dark" writer co-wrote the Bannanas in Pajamas series with his wife, Nik Vincent Abnett... truly the man has no cajones!), and being a snotty **** with the best of them (By the way, next year I'll be doing an internship at Cornell, which may lead to my garaunteed acceptance there if I don't mess things up too badly! I'm not just an argumentative arse, I'm an ivy-league argumentative arse; my parents are so proud ).

((By the way, I'm waiting until after the writing contest to make my triumphant return... let's just say that, besides Clint, Gav, and ChrisI have not been impressed with recent BL novels and I am bringing a whole new level of harshness... blame it on the fact that now Mike Lee and I get along, hell truly froze over here lol... that said, with all I have to say they will never publish anything I have to write after I drop a few select bomb shells. My apologies to everyone for going off-topic here, but this guy is like my long-lost cousin! Albeit a cousin who is a Black Sheep that I shake my head sadly at many times a day, but a long-lost cousin none the less!))

Mr. Hellebore, it is excellent to see you on here as well , though you forgot about the Charnel Daemon, the Genestealers, and the swarm of Pale Throng mutants that came at us all at once too . Since I have a good amount of respect for you (unlike a certain weakling whose levels of super nerdom have diminished to an even more subpar level than when I last left him... bloody weak physics majors!) I will not argue other than saying this: A 12 year old (male or female) can conceive/give birth to a child, but is it *REALLY* a good idea for them to?

The Baron said:

Agreed. However, one must note that as far as being canon Brothers of the Snake is every bit as valid as any other Black Library novel. Each and every one has a GW WH40k stamp on it. None of the novels are any more or less canon than any other according to GW. So while the novels are useful as precedent and interesting fluff, NONE of them are binding.

The Baron said:

I think you've got me mistaken with someone else (not sure who else goes under the name Hellebore...). I live in Australia. My RP group DID in fact get attacked by a carnosaur, sabre wolves and arbitrators, but nothing else.

That means you don't have any respect for me and can continue arguing to your hearts content.

I am Hellebore on Warseer and Dark Reign, and on the BL boards as well. I'm Hellebore on most forums I go to, not many people have a screen name of a flower...

Hellebore

DocIII said:

Waitamo, I didn't say that (it was theBaron, I think)! I dislike BotS as much as the next man, but I'd quite heartily dispute theBaron's take on advocating it non-canon. But then that's because I happily ignore much of the stuff I don't like without making a song and dance about it. (Yes, just wait for theBaron's bollywood versions of...well, anything/everything).

Anyhow, if Hellebore's Hellebore off of BLP and Warseer, then you'd be *my* Hellebore and I your Xisor (also, to a degree, long lost cousins, so to speak). IIRC, Hellebore, you do a fair bit with the Varingyr?

Anyway: TheBaron, I'm not convinced with this "keep 'em in forever" thing you're suggesting/claiming to be supporting. I don't recall encountering it (indeed my own memory on the whole tangle is confused to say the least), but a set 'minimum' maturity' and set maximum 'no more improvement' seems reasonable. Variation between geneseeds would also account for this. If it took thirty years for Salamander GS to mature before being fit for plucking, this' make sense given everything, yet a prolific chapter might possess a quickly maturing GS. A longer 'completed' time might also be true of chapters who have...specialist traits or defects (BAs, SWs, Black Dragons, Imperial Fists and Raven Guard), yet purer seeds (UM and Salamander, for instance) may well have a very set 'upper limit' at which they can be happily extracted.

And, frankly, since I don't particularly care for the canon on this point, I'm happy with my idea (immediately above) because it's top quality. Done.