I feel we covered this before where everything the OP did was legal under the rules

Using loaded dice is also "legal" under the rules. Are you really going to argue that it isn't cheating?

Also, the tournament rules explicitly ban stalling for time. Note that this does NOT say "playing slowly", or limit stalling to only refer to things like taking excessive time to set your dials. The OP proudly admits that they were stalling, so I don't see how anyone can defend this as a legal action.

The choice is akin to in football in a 2 minute drill situation.

Except this isn't a good analogy for two reasons:

1) Football was designed to be a timed game, and the clock is integrated into the rules. X-Wing, on the other hand, isn't. It's designed to be played until one side is completely destroyed, and the time limit is an awkward addition that only exists because tournaments need to keep a reliable schedule.

2) Football has the play clock to limit how much time you can spend without actually playing the game. Avoiding combat to reach the time limit would be much less of a problem if both players had chess clocks and the a-wing player automatically lost the game when their time ran out.

you keep saying that, but if it's an awkward addition or not it's part of the tournament xwing, ignoring that won't help.

besides, I doubt FFG totally forgot tournaments when designing the game, so it's a designed and intended implementation.

might need some rework, perhaps will see it some day, but that's not the here and now.

chess clocks would be nice, but I don't see how it would have stopped the a-wing player and not the y-player since we don't know that he moved "slower". it might have ended in a draw, depends a bit on what variant you want to employ and how you want to change the victory conditions.

Chess clocks are unworkable for X-Wing and should not be required. There is too much back-and-forth between players, as pilot skill dictates the turn sequencing, rather than each player having their 'own' turn.

Imagine hitting the chess clock every time after you roll your attack dice, so your opponent can then modify your dice, then he hits the clock so you can modify your dice, then you hit the clock so he can roll his defence dice... it's convoluted, cumbersome and not how the game needs to be played. I would hate playing with chess clocks and I hope the game doesn't come to that.

If I have a problem with someone taking their sweet time, I'll politely ask them to speed up because the clock is ticking. If it persists, I'll call the TO.

I feel we covered this before where everything the OP did was legal under the rules

Using loaded dice is also "legal" under the rules. Are you really going to argue that it isn't cheating?

Also, the tournament rules explicitly ban stalling for time. Note that this does NOT say "playing slowly", or limit stalling to only refer to things like taking excessive time to set your dials. The OP proudly admits that they were stalling, so I don't see how anyone can defend this as a legal action.

here you are grasping at straws now, loaded dices are not part of the FFG standard components and hence by definition cannot be used and are therefore already not legal, according to the official FFG rules

Chess clocks are unworkable for X-Wing and should not be required. There is too much back-and-forth between players, as pilot skill dictates the turn sequencing, rather than each player having their 'own' turn.

Imagine hitting the chess clock every time after you roll your attack dice, so your opponent can then modify your dice, then he hits the clock so you can modify your dice, then you hit the clock so he can roll his defence dice... it's convoluted, cumbersome and not how the game needs to be played. I would hate playing with chess clocks and I hope the game doesn't come to that.

If I have a problem with someone taking their sweet time, I'll politely ask them to speed up because the clock is ticking. If it persists, I'll call the TO.

you could limit the clock to the move planning stage - the most variable time span, the remaining move resolutions and attacks cost still time but are more straight forward in terms of average duration and it's easier to spot if someone is stalling there. Isn't optimal, could be one of the reasons FFG just went with a total time.

100 point dog fight. Hmm...

dog·fight

ˈdôgˌfīt/

noun

1.a close combat between military aircraft.

I guess FFG should refrain from using the term dog fight since the proclaimed general consensus is win by any means.

IMHO, Running to escape and hide in a dogfight is as unsporting behavior as delaying. The two actions are essentially the same.

Enjoy the tournaments gentlemen.

tournament (ˈtʊənəmənt, ˈtɔː-, ˈtɜː-) — n

1. a sporting competition in which contestants play a series of games to determine an overall winner

2. a meeting for athletic or other sporting contestants: an archery tournament 3. medieval history a. (originally) a martial sport or contest in which mounted combatants fought for a prize b. (later) a meeting for knightly sports and exercises

In all honesty, if this was my tournament, I wouldn't have faulted the OP at all. If it had been a casual game with no time limit, I would have lost my $#it..

Surely in a casual setting you would have chased him down? I mean I have no problem flying circles round you waiting for you to make a mistake with my superior speed keeping me out of contact. In fact I find it quite fun to do this, seeing my opponents face go all squiffy as I turn away from an easy shot because it would put me in danger the following turn is priceless.

In the words of the great "The Hunt for Red October":

[a torpedo is racing toward them]

Capt. Vasili Borodin : Torpedo impact, 5 seconds.

[the torpedo slams into the bow of Red October and breaks up on impact]

Commander Bart Mancuso : I'll be damned!

Jack Ryan : What happened?

Commander Bart Mancuso : Combat tactics, Mr. Ryan. By turning into the path of the torpedo, the Captain closed the distance before it could arm itself.

Jack Ryan : So that's it?

Captain Ramius : Not quite. Right now Tupolev is removing the safety features on all his weapons. He won't make the same mistake twice.

The loss is definitely on his head not yours.

Get that hoorah semperfi crap out of here. This is a board game, not the military. This wasn't about forcing the opponent to adapt, this was about being a chicken and hiding from the opponent until he gave up. This wasn't about playing the game, this was OP avoiding playing the rest of his game to get a cheap win. Terrible attitude, terrible player, and toxic to the community. Word will get around if he keeps doing it, and people won't play with him anymore unless forced to for an event.

One has to look at both types of game.

For a tournament it was a valid tactic but the opponent also built not a very good tournament list because he had to account for lists like these. He may take damage quite well (3-4 Y-Wings is a lot of hitpoints to take out) but also doesn't do much damage himself so a loss of as single Y-Wing can be devastating according to the new rules.

OP played to his strengths.. an A-Wing is not an in your face close brawler and he used him how he was meant to be used. Sucks to be the opponent when you can't catch him but if you do chances are good to take it out.

Now in a private game i'd have conceded much sooner and scrapped my Y-Wing list when it showed to be unable to beat such a list and adapted it. However if my opponent insisted on always playing A Wings with the sole tactic to keep away at all times i'd build a very specific list that works well against the A Wing (maybe something with Interceptors) and play it for as many times as needed until he gets the message to join the game so everybody has some fun - winning optional and not mandatory.

page 21 - impressive

but remember people, 21 is only half of the truth

I feel we covered this before where everything the OP did was legal under the rules

Using loaded dice is also "legal" under the rules. Are you really going to argue that it isn't cheating?

Also, the tournament rules explicitly ban stalling for time. Note that this does NOT say "playing slowly", or limit stalling to only refer to things like taking excessive time to set your dials. The OP proudly admits that they were stalling, so I don't see how anyone can defend this as a legal action.

If you are playing the game at a reasonable pace, how can you be stalling? You aren't required to take shots at enemy ships, you are just required to progress through the phases of the round. Typically if you don't take any shots you won't have much chance of winning, but that clearly isn't always the case.

Is the Y-wing player also stalling since he tried to maintain his formation instead of breaking it to more adequately track down the A-wings? We've seen how much area the Ion Turret can cover, so clearly the Y-wing player was making very little effort to pursue if he couldn't track down a single A-wing.

But I'm not sure why I'm expecting a reasonable line of thought from you based on the loaded dice comment, which Duraham addresses for what it was.

Just pure speculation here, so please bear with it.

1. Everyone is wondering why the Y-wings weren't able to corner or engage the A-wings at some stage. Given the fine illustration that showed it's damned near impossible to hide on a 3x3, it's had me wondering as to how unskilled or inexperienced the Y-wing player actually was. Did he assume that by equipping his ships with Ion Turrets that that was now the ONLY weapon? Did he assume that it could only fire in his primary arc only and not 360°? Who knows?
   No matter how I look at it, he surely must have been able to get SOME shots away, if not the the ion turret, surely with his primary guns. You can't tell me four A-wings were permanently at range 2+ AND behind his tight formation ALL the time. Something's missing here.
2. Second thought: this game actually hasn't taken place at all and the OP has dreamed up this idea as a possible strategy and is testing the waters by asking about it here.

It would be great if the OP could shed some more light on it, but I have noticed he's had zero input here since starting this thread.

Remember, just speculating here, but it makes you think...

It does and it doesn't. That is absolutely correct that he does pose another scenario for the Y-wings to take. That option of course would be a terrible choice. Taking one ship against an entire squadron is not a smart move. Therefore, he forces his opponent into rage quitting or waiting for the match to time out. Again, in a real tournament, skirt around all you want. FFG says it is fine. When it comes to casual, it just seems like a **** move to make your opponent feed you ships or rage quit.

Yet again you say the A-wing must engage the Y-wing player. Why not the other way round? Why should the Y-wing player get to play his strategy of sticking together in formation and require the A-wing player to attack him? If the A-wing player can stay clear indefinitely then good play to him. That takes skill as well. He is waiting for the Y-wing player to make a mistake or split forces. That is a perfectly acceptable play. Wait till your opponent is vulnerable!

But I'm not sure why I'm expecting a reasonable line of thought from you based on the loaded dice comment, which Duraham addresses for what it was.

I've learned to not expect reason from him some time ago. Him and HunterEste. It seems pretty clear their only purpose here is to make inflammatory posts on threads like these.

Both of them seem completely convinced that they and they alone know how X-Wing should work, yet have yet to provide a single logical argument to support their statements. The best they seem to be able to do is ignore questions while making increasingly illogical and outrageous statements, like the loaded dice one you mention.

Both of them seem completely convinced that they and they alone know how X-Wing should work , yet have yet to provide a single logical argument to support their statements. The best they seem to be able to do is ignore questions while making increasingly illogical and outrageous statements, like the loaded dice one you mention.

I hope the irony of this statement coming from VanorDM wasn't lost on anyone else. The kid who screams 'TROLL TROLL' and will argue his opinion is the right (and only) opinion until he's blue in the face, calling other people out for being passionate.

If the Y's player hadn't quit, and the A's player hadn't quit, and there was no time limit, and no changes to the tactics made, who wins? Who loses?

The y-wing player, assuming equal skill levels. You can't run forever on a 3x3 table, eventually the y-wing player is going to force a shot if they're patient enough. It might take a lot of turns before it happens, but eventually combat is going to happen.

And of course the absolute worst-case scenario for the y-wings is a game that never ends. The a-wing player can never win with their chosen strategy, they can only delay losing for as long as possible.

Seems to me that the Y-wing player was a little TOO patient. Honestly though, reading your previous sentence "..assuming equal skill levels." This just shows that the Y-wing player wasn't at the skill level of the OP.

No offense to anyone here, but we've see the area of effect of ONE Y-Wing. Imagine 3 of them in whatever formation you like (side by side, delta, spread out - I don't care) The fact of the matter is that it should NOT have gone to time at all. Those Y-wings could have easily boxed the A-wings in. Yeah, he may have lost another ship, but I guarantee you he would have (SHOULD have) laid the hurt on those A's with his Ion Turrets.

But I'm not sure why I'm expecting a reasonable line of thought from you based on the loaded dice comment, which Duraham addresses for what it was.

I've learned to not expect reason from him some time ago. Him and HunterEste. It seems pretty clear their only purpose here is to make inflammatory posts on threads like these.

Both of them seem completely convinced that they and they alone know how X-Wing should work, yet have yet to provide a single logical argument to support their statements. The best they seem to be able to do is ignore questions while making increasingly illogical and outrageous statements, like the loaded dice one you mention.

technically, tactical nuclear warheads aren't forbidden explicitly either in the rules ..

one of the victory conditions say "All of one player’s ships are destroyed", it doesn't say the shop or the city block still have to stand ...

hmm but you might run into other issues with that, perhaps a hammer will do... <sigh>

21 pages, people? There is no victory here.

I hope the irony of this statement coming from VanorDM wasn't lost on anyone else.

Wow your either suffering from delusion or a simple lack of reading comprehension... But I'm sure most people will see the irony here.

I at least have the rules and logic to back up my "opinion" something you have to provide. The best you can do is try and play the gotcha game with "win at all costs".

I have one question to all the people who are calling this "bad form" or "cheap".

If the OP hadn't started this tactic after the first round, would this still be considered cheap or unsportsmanlike?

I mean, if both players had been dancing around the table, in and out of asteroids, never able to connect their shots because of asteroids or whatever, and there was only 5 minutes left in the game, and the OP took out the Y-wing, and THEN decided to evade, would it still be considered cheap?

I don't think it would, but what do I know? Would that have forced the Y-wing player to press the attack?

I think the OP gave the Y-wing player EVERY opportunity to attack, short of parking his A-wings at range 1 and submitting to the Ion onslaught from 3 Y-wings. As I said in an earlier post - the Y-wing player had 24 points of hull/shield left on the table. If he HAD decided to press the attack, and used ONE of his ships to Ion, and assuming he hit for 1 point of damage, the other 2 Y-wings still had 4 potential dice to throw (assuming they used their lasers rather than the Ions), or 2 more potential dice, and even more control from the Ions.

If he focused all three of his Y's on ONE ship each turn, it would have taken him 2 turns to take out ONE A-wing using Ions alone. Or - 1 turn if he had used a combo of Ions and lasers. 3 Turns would have been 2 A-wings using Ions, or again 2 turns using a combo. Even if he HAD taken a pounding from the A-wings (relatively speaking), it would take concentrated fire from all 4 A-wings each turn to take out one Y-wing, and if the OP had been losing one each turn, that advantage would quickly turn in the Y's favor.

This could have been an easy victory - if only the Y-wing player had actually wanted it.

I have one question to all the people who are calling this "bad form" or "cheap".

If the OP hadn't started this tactic after the first round, would this still be considered cheap or unsportsmanlike?

I mean, if both players had been dancing around the table, in and out of asteroids, never able to connect their shots because of asteroids or whatever, and there was only 5 minutes left in the game, and the OP took out the Y-wing, and THEN decided to evade, would it still be considered cheap?

I don't think it would, but what do I know? Would that have forced the Y-wing player to press the attack?

I think the OP gave the Y-wing player EVERY opportunity to attack, short of parking his A-wings at range 1 and submitting to the Ion onslaught from 3 Y-wings. As I said in an earlier post - the Y-wing player had 24 points of hull/shield left on the table. If he HAD decided to press the attack, and used ONE of his ships to Ion, and assuming he hit for 1 point of damage, the other 2 Y-wings still had 4 potential dice to throw (assuming they used their lasers rather than the Ions), or 2 more potential dice, and even more control from the Ions.

If he focused all three of his Y's on ONE ship each turn, it would have taken him 2 turns to take out ONE A-wing using Ions alone. Or - 1 turn if he had used a combo of Ions and lasers. 3 Turns would have been 2 A-wings using Ions, or again 2 turns using a combo. Even if he HAD taken a pounding from the A-wings (relatively speaking), it would take concentrated fire from all 4 A-wings each turn to take out one Y-wing, and if the OP had been losing one each turn, that advantage would quickly turn in the Y's favor.

This could have been an easy victory - if only the Y-wing player had actually wanted it.

Just to get slightly off topic, yes, the Y-Wings should have easily gotten a shot off at some point. Sure the A-Wings have a 5 straight plus boost, but they have to turn sometime which would have given the Y-Wings ample opportunity to get in range. The fact that the A-Wing player was able to avoid him for 6-7 turns means we probably don't have the full story. It would be interesting to see a play-by-play to see what the Y-Wing player was actually doing.

Based on the one account we have and our knowledge of X-Wing mechanics we can only assume that the Y-Wing player was quite inexperienced. Otherwise, how could he have not gotten a shot off? So, it probably had nothing to do with the Y-Wing player not wanting to win enough. It being a tournament, we have to assume he did want to win. He was probably inexperienced and just trying the best he could.

Anyway, let's be nice to this nameless Y-Wing player. The OP said he was gracious enough and he would probably feel bad coming to this forum and seeing a 21 page thread where people are saying mean things about him. That last point wasn't directed at you, Papamambo. I've noticed a lot of people in this thread have called him a jerk, a ragequitter, stupid, etc.

It's an odd things to see sportsmanship brought up here from time to time and you start to see how different people view playing the game itself.

My own personal opinion is this. Beyond explaining how to play the game and make sure someone is not cheating, sportsmanship and the rules really don;t have anything to do with each other. Sportsmanship is incredibly subjective because by its nature as it is a social construct and it will be slightly different with every person you play. What is allowed in one group of gamers,especially if they are hardcore tourney gamers ( and there's nothing wrong with that ), would probably be really frowned on in a more casual setting. However, you can't use the rulebook as a shield against bad perceptions. The rulebook dictates the rules for a great game, but in reality have little or nothing to do with how people view you or if they enjoy playing you. It just happens that people just get used to playing a certain way and being played against a certain way.

To illustrate this, I don't think that the op did anything really wrong but I also feel like its a little beardy just because it detracts from the fun of the game a little bit because playing a whole game where one ships blows up isn't very fun (I know that the op says if he split his squad up a bit he would of attacked but his opponent doesn't know that). Convincing me that reaction is wrong is kind of a lost cause because the rules and how I perceive you are different by their nature.

If I had been flying against him, I personally would have wondered why he wasn't pressing the attack.. Inexperience or not, he could have used some feedback both during and after the game. Though, I imagine if he had received it afterwards, he would likely have been a great deal more pissed than he came off as.

It's an odd things to see sportsmanship brought up here from time to time and you start to see how different people view playing the game itself.

My own personal opinion is this. Beyond explaining how to play the game and make sure someone is not cheating, sportsmanship and the rules really don;t have anything to do with each other. Sportsmanship is incredibly subjective because by its nature as it is a social construct and it will be slightly different with every person you play. What is allowed in one group of gamers,especially if they are hardcore tourney gamers ( and there's nothing wrong with that ), would probably be really frowned on in a more casual setting. However, you can't use the rulebook as a shield against bad perceptions. The rulebook dictates the rules for a great game, but in reality have little or nothing to do with how people view you or if they enjoy playing you. It just happens that people just get used to playing a certain way and being played against a certain way.

To illustrate this, I don't think that the op did anything really wrong but I also feel like its a little beardy just because it detracts from the fun of the game a little bit because playing a whole game where one ships blows up isn't very fun (I know that the op says if he split his squad up a bit he would of attacked but his opponent doesn't know that). Convincing me that reaction is wrong is kind of a lost cause because the rules and how I perceive you are different by their nature.

Dude, you just got soooo many plus points from me for using the word "beardy". I also concur that the default setting for a tournament is non-casual play. An interesting question would be, if someone organized a casual tourny, how would they enforce it?

This thread is getting silly. Lets not stop.

In Imperial Navy, A-Wing chases down YOU!

if someone organized a casual tourny, how would they enforce it?

From what I've seen most X-Wing tourney's are casual, at least compared to what most people seem to expect, compared to something like 'Ard Boyz...

At Worlds someone actually offered their spot in the top 16 to someone else because they realized the other guy actually had a better score, or something like that. Can't remember exactly what happened.

In most X-Wing tournaments, even though most people are playing to win, they still have a good attitude about it. They don't watch the table like a hawk just looking for an excuse to pounce on the other guy...

Like say you got a dial that has 3/4th of one maneuver displayed but a tiny bit of another one. Now someone could try and be a ass and claim that the dial wasn't properly set. Even if the TO wouldn't agree, it still impacts the game by intimidation if nothing else. But X-Wing players aren't like that.

Most of us wouldn't even notice, but if we did we'd not make a deal about it. That's really the heart of Fly Casual. It doesn't mean you can't play to win, it means you shouldn't be a jerk about it. You shouldn't look for every excuse you can find in a game to mess up the other guy. You shouldn't try and use an interpretation of the rules to hammer him into a bad spot.

Having been part of this community since Fly Casual was started, I can say that some people want to twist the idea into something that supports their way of playing and then use it as a hammer against anyone who disagrees with them, which is antithetical to the very idea in the first place.

It's official, we've hit ludicrous speed.

HunterEste, iPeregrine, I'd like to share something with you that I once read in a Star Wars book, and it's served me well ever since: "If one guy calls you a Hutt, ignore him. If a second guy calls you a Hutt, begin to wonder. If a third guy calls you a Hutt, buy a drool bucket and start stockpiling spice."