FFG, please oh please look into this.
I would love some great modern warefare air battles
Modern Aircraft flight path system?
I believe Wings of War, a game very similar to X-wing (and which came before X-wing) but I'm not sure who makes it already does this.
Wings of Glory is made by Ares Games (was Wings of War by Nexus Games and sold by FFG) is a similar game system for WWI and WWII air combat. There are some differences like the use of damage cards rather than dice, use of maneuver cards rather than maneuver dials and templates, you select 3 or 2 maneuver cards at a time rather than 1 on your maneuver dial, etc... I have only played the WWI version and it is definitely one of my favorite games. Very different feel to the game and the group of players as there is really no provision for matched-point/tournament play* (this probably sounds like heresy to many players in this community, I know) but focuses on scenario play.
* There are not even any "official" points values per aircraft.
Anywaaaayyyy...
I think that a combination of the two might work best.
1. Modern air combat is fast, so you would need something that allowed for longer movement than that allowed using the WoG maneuver card system- so move templates like XWM would be better- IMO.
2. In the real world, maneuvers are built on top of previous maneuvers- what I'm trying to say is that certain maneuvers should not be able to immediately follow on certain other maneuvers or you have problems (like stalling out)- I guess the concept of Red, Whit and Green maneuvers would work, with two Reds being illegal back-to-back (unless a special case).
3. Guns would work the same but probably be more limited in range. Heat-seeking "dog fight" missiles would probably be range 2-3 (some might be range 1-2/3) and work like XWM equivalents. Longer-ranged, radar guided missiles would probably be range 3-5 (some may differ) and work like in XWM.
4. The challenge will be in designing appropriate stats for each aircraft. My recommendation would be that all A/C of a certain type (ex. all MiG-29, all F-15A) use the same stats, some other method needs to be developed to differentiate Pilot Skill and rare special abilities. I would suggest a smaller spread, something like: 1= Rookie/Green, 2-3=Trained, 3-4= Veteran, 5+=Ace (and there should be very few of these).
5. Rules for altitude will have to be created (but kept simple). I'd suggest looking at the system used in the "Check Your Six" air combat game.
I think a modern air combat game using the Flight Path system is much more viable than the idea of using it for a ground combat game, like some have suggested to recreate the Battle of Hoth.
Just throwing out some ideas...
There is the board game Air Superiority by GDW. This was released in 1987 and there are updates.
Link to a review -
I think a Vietnam war era mix would be good. The US aircraft being faster and mainly armed with unreliable air to air missiles and the MiGs with heavy cannon and greater turning ability. All this is inspired by the "Dogfights" show.
Modern aircraft don't really dogfight. Their missiles are able to destroy targets from beyond visual range. It's just a question of whose aircraft has better targeting technology and can kill the other one first.
Modern aircraft don't really dogfight. Their missiles are able to destroy targets from beyond visual range. It's just a question of whose aircraft has better targeting technology and can kill the other one first.
butbutbut muh top gun....
Modern aircraft don't really dogfight. Their missiles are able to destroy targets from beyond visual range. It's just a question of whose aircraft has better targeting technology and can kill the other one first.
butbutbut muh top gun....
does a now mostly retired aircraft from a nearly 30 year old movie technically still count as "modern"?
I wonder what resolution the playing field should have to use fighter and AWACS at the same time.
The old SPI air combat game was very technically accurate however it was very tedious to play. I mean they simulated every aspect of air combat. Including energy state, how fast the engines spool up, even the increased smoke signature of the older J-79'c and RD-33's.. they even accounted for aircraft size/ visibility. Hence the importance of having smokeless engines! !!
All the 14's are now retired. Except the ones in Iran.
Modern aircraft don't really dogfight. Their missiles are able to destroy targets from beyond visual range. It's just a question of whose aircraft has better targeting technology and can kill the other one first.
Well, that's what the US military thought going into the Vietnam War... no need for guns and dog fighting skills. Unfortunately, reality proved those theories to not be worth the paper they were written on. The US was forced to fit gun pods to their aircraft but those came with limited ammo and other issues, including lowering the performance of the aircraft. Eventually, they made versions of the aircraft that included guns, an technologically backward step. Since that time, pretty much all combat aircraft (including the F-22 and F-35) have included some form of guns for when you are out of missile, for ground attack and for use... in close.
It used to be that Air-to-Air Missiles were unreliable and had problems locking-on or making extreme maneuvers to hit targets in close or heading toward the attacker but the current generation AAM are quite capable in a dogfight, being able to acquire and lock-on to targets off widely off axis not to mention at higher or lower altitudes. They are also more resistant to countermeasures.
Technology is great (just ask any aerospace contractor) but it still comes down to the abilities of the human pilot (for now...). Knowing how to use that technology effectively (and being prepared for if/when it fails) is the key to success.
Chris, while I agree with pretty much everything you said none of that refutes what Danthrax said. Modern air superiority and dog fight really aren't related anymore.
All the 14's are now retired. Except the ones in Iran.
This makes me a little sad, but it was inevitable.
Finally, there is an older hex based game that might meet the needs of the op called AirCav. Hex based and paper with dice, has a simple line of sight and elevation rules and focused on helicopters so the speed is not ridiculous.
Check out Thud Ridge, or any of the other games here:
Odd thing now is that pilots are actually limiting the performance of the aircraft. The 16 can already pull more g, s than a pilot can take!!! And the newer 5th gen stuff are even more capable. Shortly somebody is going to make an air to air drone.it will be smaller, lighter, able to turn better, and cheaper...However I doubt it will be able to out maneuver a modern air to air missile! !! So pilots are becoming obsolete but you will still need folks on the ground to fix the machined!!! Lol...
why not pair up with ace combat, they have a bunch of named pilots and funky colour schemes over there, not to mention a highly engaging story
I'd rather see a Battlestar Galactica version for flight path.
Chris, while I agree with pretty much everything you said none of that refutes what Danthrax said. Modern air superiority and dog fight really aren't related anymore.
All the 14's are now retired. Except the ones in Iran.
This makes me a little sad, but it was inevitable.
Finally, there is an older hex based game that might meet the needs of the op called AirCav. Hex based and paper with dice, has a simple line of sight and elevation rules and focused on helicopters so the speed is not ridiculous.
Chris, while I agree with pretty much everything you said none of that refutes what Danthrax said. Modern air superiority and dog fight really aren't related anymore.
All the 14's are now retired. Except the ones in Iran.
This makes me a little sad, but it was inevitable.
Finally, there is an older hex based game that might meet the needs of the op called AirCav. Hex based and paper with dice, has a simple line of sight and elevation rules and focused on helicopters so the speed is not ridiculous.
Dont forget Red Star White Star... it's also an old hex based game.. there was also Foxbat and Phantom.. I think I still have both..
I have a copy of FASA's Top Gun game right here. Used little 1/700 aircraft models and hex map as I recall.
Odd thing now is that pilots are actually limiting the performance of the aircraft. The 16 can already pull more g, s than a pilot can take!!! And the newer 5th gen stuff are even more capable. Shortly somebody is going to make an air to air drone.it will be smaller, lighter, able to turn better, and cheaper...However I doubt it will be able to out maneuver a modern air to air missile! !! So pilots are becoming obsolete but you will still need folks on the ground to fix the machined!!! Lol...
Pilots are not about to become obsolete any time soon. Drones have several limitations of there own. You have a delay whilst the visual information is sent from the drone to the controller on the ground. You have a further delay whilst the controller's commands are sent to the drone meaning that it can't perform high speed maneuvers due to these delays. The controller just can't react quick enough. Also drones require that link to be secure. Jamming or Hacking are both possible methods for taking out drones.
To get around these failings, you would have to use AI which then opens a hole new can of worms.
The wings of war/glory line by the old nexus now ares games is great. They use a deck of cards as the maneuver templates, with many different decks to represent the many different planes. The wwi version uses a damage deck similar to x-wing. The ww2 version each planes guns vary so they have 4 diff colors of damage chits to draw from. In both games you do more damage at close range. In the ww1 version there is are damage deck for diff weapons. In the ww2 you draw damage chits. NO DICE IN EITHER GAME. Both are great depending on which era of aviation you enjoy. The minis are great, with real pilots planes and paint jobs, famous squadrons, and fighters, dive bombers, heavy fighters, medium bombers, and rules for altitude and pilots skills. It seems that the creators of X-wing were influenced by wings of war/glory for the flight path system. FF did publish wings of war in the us for nexus. With the advent of kickstarter Ares seems very strong, releasing a napoleonic naval warfare game with movement based on the wings of glory deck movement. Ive played them all and they are lots of fun. You can keep it simple or get crazy complicated.
There is the board game Air Superiority by GDW. This was released in 1987 and there are updates.
Link to a review -
JD Webster did produce a compatible game to Air Superiority and Air Strike called The Speed Of Heat. It uses an updated rules set that is usable with the GDW games and covers air combat in Korea and Viet Nam.
Edited by zathras23I've played Phantoms and it's not too bad. Best thing is it's a free download pdf. It covers Vietnam war through to today. It's more of a conventional wargame, but you can get started fairly cheaply using 1/285 or 1/300 scale models. I've also seen the same game mechanic for World War II and Korea. There's plenty of air warfare game rules out there and some are darned good fun. Check Phantoms out here:
The wings of war/glory line by the old nexus now ares games is great. They use a deck of cards as the maneuver templates, with many different decks to represent the many different planes. The wwi version uses a damage deck similar to x-wing. The ww2 version each planes guns vary so they have 4 diff colors of damage chits to draw from. In both games you do more damage at close range. In the ww1 version there is are damage deck for diff weapons. In the ww2 you draw damage chits. NO DICE IN EITHER GAME. Both are great depending on which era of aviation you enjoy. The minis are great, with real pilots planes and paint jobs, famous squadrons, and fighters, dive bombers, heavy fighters, medium bombers, and rules for altitude and pilots skills. It seems that the creators of X-wing were influenced by wings of war/glory for the flight path system. FF did publish wings of war in the us for nexus. With the advent of kickstarter Ares seems very strong, releasing a napoleonic naval warfare game with movement based on the wings of glory deck movement. Ive played them all and they are lots of fun. You can keep it simple or get crazy complicated.
Played Wings of Glory a few weeks ago and had a lot of fun. My dice rolling usually sucks, so the 'no dice' system was good. Had a bit of luck for a change.