And any reb worth his salt will carry R3-A2 & Flechette Torpedoes in combo to double stress easily in a Phantom heavy environment.

Put that on an 8+ pilot and even Whisper won't recloak with ACD for 2 turns.

One, no you're wrong. It's only one turn they'd be denied.

Well, stress is removed one at a time. Horton, Luke, whoever with that combo double stresses any phantom before ACD kicks in, preventing it from kicking in for two turns.

Two, you're assuming the Imperial player won't be taking advantage of the new cards as well. Why not throw in a cheap BST with Wingman? I know I intend to. Maybe even two to fly escort for my stress-heavy ships like Fel.

No, I'm not. A ship with Wingman is going to have a very hard time to stay in range 1 of a Phantom.

Three, you're assuming that the rebel player will always know he's about to face a Phantom. There are so many combos in this game even before wave 4, the sheer level of prescience needed to build a squad to beat up mid PS phantoms (your idea mostly falls apart if they've got Veteran Instincts on them) is uncanny, especially in a tournament setting.

Hence my Phantom heavy environment statement. While the ability to double stress is never bad, my post is a suggestion for a local meta where Phantoms are ubiquitous.

This whole thread started out with OMG PHANTOMS ARE WAY BAHROKEN OP!!!! And I've given several counters to Phantoms that show the game is still balanced and that Wave 4 contains most of the balancing factors to Phantoms.

Going by your means of thinking, I could then say "OH YEAH WELL I'LL JUST HAVE MY DEFENDER SHOOT HIS ION CANNON AT YOUR GUY AFTER HE TAKES HIS OWN STRESS TOKEN AND THEN I WOULD KILL HIM DEAD," and suddenly it's devolving into a "my dad can beat up your dad" type scenario.

Which is not something I'd say, people presume too much as it is.

And also, though I hate to bring conjecture into this, we still don't know what Tactician does. It could very well be helpful in this situation. There's already a lot of evidence to suggest it gives tokens, but whether those tokens are stress tokens to another player or focus or evade tokens to itself, it could still be very useful in dealing with a situation being described in the whole "this thing FLAT OUT kills Phantoms" debate.

I highly doubt it gives out evade tokens, it's shipped with the Phantom which already comes with an upgrade to hand out evade actions.

Most fragile ship in the game? Really?

Technically stand alone it is tied with the Z-95, a better phrase probably would have been, least durable ship for the points

Yeah it was a bit of hyperbole. But at a minimum of over double the cost of a base Z-95, you feel that fragility considerably more.

Like I said… have the two ships joust… we'll see who "feels it more".

In this Scenario will we be jousting with Blount Homing missiles and hull upgrade? against a naked Sigma squadron? Or a Tala AND a Bandit vs the naked Sigma? I mean if all we are doing is jousting lets make the points equal here

I think everyone's forgetting here that the decloaked Phantom has one hull less than an X-wing . Without ever cloaking, it's the stats of an X-wing with a Hull moved to Attack. It's got 4 HP, not 2.

And don't forgot the Odd Kyle + Ion, Jan + Blaster combo that tends to result in ionizing stealthed ships with little trouble, given that it's a 4 die ion attack turret...

Or Lieutenant Blount with Deadeye and Ion Pulse Missiles. He doesn't even need to spend the Focus token, just discard the missile card to deal a damage and place two Ion tokens.

He does to actually make the attack. Deadeye doesn't mean you don't need to spend a token just to attack, it means you can spend a focus instead of a TL.

I think everyone's forgetting here that the decloaked Phantom has one hull less than an X-wing . Without ever cloaking, it's the stats of an X-wing with a Hull moved to Attack. It's got 4 HP, not 2.

And don't forgot the Odd Kyle + Ion, Jan + Blaster combo that tends to result in ionizing stealthed ships with little trouble, given that it's a 4 die ion attack turret...

Or Lieutenant Blount with Deadeye and Ion Pulse Missiles. He doesn't even need to spend the Focus token, just discard the missile card to deal a damage and place two Ion tokens.

He does to actually make the attack. Deadeye doesn't mean you don't need to spend a token just to attack, it means you can spend a focus instead of a TL.

Nope! Ion Pulse Missiles (and Homing Missiles, for that matter) do not require you to spend a Target Lock, just that you have one on the target. Deadeye changes the requirement to a Focus token (so he still has to have one to perform the attack) but since those missile cards never require a Target Lock be spent, he never has to spend the Focus token.

Ok, not gonna keep copying all the things:

Yes, technically the double stress keeps you from cloaking twice with Advanced Cloaking Device, but really only denies you actions once (since the tokens are assigned during the combat phase and not between moving and acting). And technically as long as the Phantom fires before Blount, it will only be 1 turn prevented from recloaking. And of course if that is true, then the Phantom player is highly unlikely to decloak again until they're gone unless it's hugely advantageous to do so.

I don't really understand why you think it would be hard to keep a low PS TIE in range 1, since a) you know where the Phantom is going to end up and b) you can barrel roll. You may not always want to , but to anyone who can gauge their maneuvers well enough the option will always be there when needed.

And yes, my dad can totally beat up your dad.

Yeah, well, Blount won't be able to fire Flechette's anyway so there.

That's a trick for X's and Y's, you need torpedoes and astromechs for that. Blount is just for ioning.

Can someone paint a Z-95 red and gold, just so we can call Blount Ion Man? .

The facts still are:

Phantoms are awesome, I want a few and want to fly a few

Phantoms aren't invincible.

The facts still are:

Phantoms are awesome, I want a few and want to fly a few

Phantoms aren't invincible.

Yep.

Pretty much on topic, I thought I would repost this quote from the TIE Phantom released thread:

The phantom is the ultimate glass cannon. It can arc jump better than any other ship, can hit harder than any other ship, and is possibly the most customizable ship in the game but can be ripped apart by a lucky/falcon/post-ion hit and will have an immense learning curve. The defender is definitely tankier, still highly manoeuvrable, has white k-turns and can hit relatively hard. I look forward to building a list around a 40-something point version of either, and 50-something points worth of fighters. Using the Interceptor as the base, the Phantom exaggerates its strengths, while the Defender covers its weaknesses.

The TIE Interceptor is a multi-role striker, while the phantom and defender are specialty fighters, each designed to take one of the Interceptors abilities and exaggerate it at the "expense" of the other.

Played a couple of games last night, saw the same guy completely whiff on two separate rolls with five green dice apiece. Just an observation.

---

So, here's a quick list I'm considering:

25 Sigma Squadron Pilot x2

21 Tempest Squadron Pilot x2

4 Engine Upgrade

Like Interceptors, it's one of those lists that's very dependent on how well you fly your ships, but not as susceptible to the same inherent pitfalls. Up until now, Advanceds have been nigh unplayable because of the red/green die trade off. Do you guys think that the four red dice that the Phantom brings to the table balances the equation?

Sadly, probably no.

Maybe with a missile to boost damage output again. When a phantom decloaks to make a kill - it must be out of arc if you're looking at ps3, or it needs to kill what is on ps2 before it shoots...

The tempests are probably low enough threat they will be ignored. The engine will help get to range 1, which is good... But you could add shields to the phantoms instead... You still have the basic problem of being able to bring more guns and hp for nearly the same cost in 2 academies..

Consider that you could bring howl + 2 obsidians, and have 6 points left for hull upgrade or recon spec for the phantoms... Or just 4 academies.

The defense of the advanced doesn't make up for the defense of the phantoms, while the attack of the phantoms, might make up for the attack of the advanced, all is well while the phantoms live. If we plan on losing no phantoms, we probably want a bigger threat to take heat from phantoms (howl runner w swarm tactics flying w a defender). But if we plan to lose phantoms,then I think we need more red dice to offset their loss. I think the advances might be able to finish what's left in endgame, but When we get to timed games, can they do it fast enough?

It's still worth trying though

I realize it's a novel concept. Before wave 3 was released, I didn't think much of generic B-Wings. Here we are not quite a year later, and Blues are the greatest thing since sliced bread. I have no idea what a generic, un-upgraded Phantom will be like, and the proposition honestly scares me.

Proxied a couple of games with revealed dials, 2ptl royals and 2 phantoms, one died very early, and did get a good hit in, the other lived until it had no defensive action. They want to decloak to get their position in - but they have to take the cloak action to do it, so, like corran horn, you're really firing every other round with the naked phantom, but you're getting a single 4 or maybe 5 die attack in return... after you decloak, you kinda want to recloak.

No turrets. They really like actions and pilot bid. Biggest trouble was not being able to cloak and focus at the same time. So, they really need to end out of arc to cloak, no defense focus and 4 dice is slightly better than 2 dice and focus ( difference of 2/8ths). Still, low enough to worry about 3 dice w focus.

Opponents w repositioning and higher skill do well if they guess left / right . K turn past the phantom can be good for opponent. Enemies splitting arcs do well. They're more stealth avenger interceptor like w no upgrades but more reliable attack. Ignored phantoms will probably rule though. One basic phantom and a bunch of scary threats together should rock.

I'm personally thinking along the lines of Fettigator or IonKath + squad leader

(Kath scarlet, Ion Cannon, Gunner, Phantom + FCS X2 - now you have someone who can make a ship be still where you need- and given the large base + range 2, ought to be able to give one phantom the second action it needs - and FCS should give them the ability to cloak and fire with modification .) I wonder if it will be as cool as HSF in some ways...

I had a thought which may just be so crazy it works.

Two OGP lambdas with advanced sensors

Two Sigma squadron pilots

Two points for initiative or a swanky upgrade.

It would have a lot of fire power and really mess up formations where the opponent has to break formation due to lambdas and be wary of the phantoms. For 25 points thw Sigma is already a good ship and doesn't really need any upgrades.

Only thing is it will be hard to fly!

But do you want your opponent to break formation when flying Phantoms?

That is a bloody good point. I guess as long as you have an idea of where they are going. Haha easier said than done.

I'd split the two points left over, and give those Lambdas Engine Upgrades instead of Advanced Sensors.

But do you want your opponent to break formation when flying Phantoms?

Depends what else I'm flying and what I'm flying against though. Generally No though I wouldn't, I would much rather have 1 wide arc to dodge than 4+ smaller ones elsewhere. especially if we are talking high attack ships, against Ties/A-wings/Y-wings I would rather they split because ill take my 4 dice against their 2 attack any day of the week

The Phantom is pure lies. With the Advanced cloaking device, effectively has 4 attack and 4 defence. Can slip round the map easily, and is the easiest ship to get and keep behind your target. Keeping to range 1 is not so tricky, and so secretly has 5 attack.

Multiple Phantoms, even the basic pilots could be very tricky to fight against. I appreciate you can use ion cannons and fletchettes, even bombs, but they are OP.

In Star Trek Attack Wing, the cloaking action requires shields, and you effectively swap the shields for the cloak token.

It's early days yet, but this does remind me of Rifts by Palladium books, with each new expansion being way more powerful than the previous expansions, making the earlier stuff more or less redundant.

The Phantom is pure lies. With the Advanced cloaking device, effectively has 4 attack and 4 defence. Can slip round the map easily, and is the easiest ship to get and keep behind your target. Keeping to range 1 is not so tricky, and so secretly has 5 attack.

Multiple Phantoms, even the basic pilots could be very tricky to fight against. I appreciate you can use ion cannons and fletchettes, even bombs, but they are OP.

In Star Trek Attack Wing, the cloaking action requires shields, and you effectively swap the shields for the cloak token.

It's early days yet, but this does remind me of Rifts by Palladium books, with each new expansion being way more powerful than the previous expansions, making the earlier stuff more or less redundant.

Hogswallop. Taking Whisper or Echo with upgrades to make them reliable are far from broken because they are prohibitively expensive. I wouldn't risk playing Whisper for less than 40 points (ACD, Recon Spec, Vet Instincts), to guarantee her survivability. Maybe its because I am not an amazing player and don't trust myself not to make a mistake, but at 25 points minimum for a ship that only has 4 total HP and the ability to dance around like a fool, the Phantom is probably the only of the three superiority craft this wave that is not overpriced for its abilities. I agree that it's good, its better than many other ships. It's not unbeatable, and its extraordinarily expensive for a ship with its durability. The first time you get an attack against it uncloaked, it will be crippled. And it shouldn't take more than 2-3 attacks to kill it even if its cloaked. Its good, but far from OP. For 2 points more, the rebels can buy Chewbacca, who gets an attack equally as often because of his arc, and is substantially more durable. AND, he will squash that Phantom in an instant, even if it's cloaked.

The Phantom is pure lies. With the Advanced cloaking device, effectively has 4 attack and 4 defence. Can slip round the map easily, and is the easiest ship to get and keep behind your target. Keeping to range 1 is not so tricky, and so secretly has 5 attack.

Multiple Phantoms, even the basic pilots could be very tricky to fight against. I appreciate you can use ion cannons and fletchettes, even bombs, but they are OP.

In Star Trek Attack Wing, the cloaking action requires shields, and you effectively swap the shields for the cloak token.

It's early days yet, but this does remind me of Rifts by Palladium books, with each new expansion being way more powerful than the previous expansions, making the earlier stuff more or less redundant.

Hogswallop. Taking Whisper or Echo with upgrades to make them reliable are far from broken because they are prohibitively expensive. I wouldn't risk playing Whisper for less than 40 points (ACD, Recon Spec, Vet Instincts), to guarantee her survivability. Maybe its because I am not an amazing player and don't trust myself not to make a mistake, but at 25 points minimum for a ship that only has 4 total HP and the ability to dance around like a fool, the Phantom is probably the only of the three superiority craft this wave that is not overpriced for its abilities. I agree that it's good, its better than many other ships. It's not unbeatable, and its extraordinarily expensive for a ship with its durability. The first time you get an attack against it uncloaked, it will be crippled. And it shouldn't take more than 2-3 attacks to kill it even if its cloaked. Its good, but far from OP. For 2 points more, the rebels can buy Chewbacca, who gets an attack equally as often because of his arc, and is substantially more durable. AND, he will squash that Phantom in an instant, even if it's cloaked.

Chewie with Gunner has about a 30% chance to land damage on a Phantom with multiple focuses. Whisper is scary good.

The issue here is that without the focus your average 3 attack ship almost certainly lands a hit. The Phantom cannot take that for long.

And anybody with higher PS will eat the Phantom.

In the end that means that without FCS Echo isn't modding attacks often and Whisper isn't nearly as psychotically manueverable.

I love the "oh the Falcon will squash the Phantom" comments that always comes up in these posts. As if it's an automation win

I've beaten Falcons flying alongside wedge with Echo.

Yes it's a tough battle and one mistake can be game for the Phantom, but Its not like taking a Falcon is an automatic win.

Echo is great at hardly moving and I keep saying the only pilot who can basically fly backwards.

Keep the Phantom as far as possible from the Falcon, while the rest of your squad gets in its face.

Your opponent will want to shoot the Phantom but normally shoot the ships that are not getting a bonus die, or at ships that grant him that bonus die

I love the "oh the Falcon will squash the Phantom" comments that always comes up in these posts. As if it's an automation win

I've beaten Falcons flying alongside wedge with Echo.

Yes it's a tough battle and one mistake can be game for the Phantom, but Its not like taking a Falcon is an automatic win.

Echo is great at hardly moving and I keep saying the only pilot who can basically fly backwards.

Keep the Phantom as far as possible from the Falcon, while the rest of your squad gets in its face.

Your opponent will want to shoot the Phantom but normally shoot the ships that are not getting a bonus die, or at ships that grant him that bonus die

Didn't mean to say that the Phantom Can't win. If he lands that 4-5 die attack and gets some backup, he'll have little trouble. I just meant that the Phantom is not the epic end all that many say it is, just like you just said the Falcon can't always beat it. The Falcon is often a strong counter to the Phantom, as are several other lists and formation types. The Phantom IS hypermobile and has the strongest primary attack in the game. But, neither are unbeatable. And they can both be quite expensive. Taking either means that you are likely choosing a 3 ship list or are going to fly a swarm with a number of TIEs or Headhunters.

Just trying to say that nothing in this game is overpowered and everything has a strong counter, from a list point of view as well as a strategic one. The Goal is to make a strong versatile list and choose a strategy based on your opponent's list.

Fair enough