I ran a proxied generic TIE Phantom last night. It did better than Rexler's defender oddly enough. This Phantom also had the advanced cloaking device and a Navigator, on the idea that if I did pull a maneuver that I didn't like I could at least change the speed of it.

I was getting some great positioning out of it but there where times were asteroids were all over the place and you can't decloak through them, so I had to remain cloaked. I think I like the phantom's shinanigans and if I can, I'll get them to the table more often. I've preordered one but I might have to get a second.

But so far I really like the fighter. I also approve of this version of the cloaking device. Yeah it's a little unthematic to target lock a ship that should be invisible, but +2 agility is not unbeatable and it takes some skill to use effectively... unlike the other scifi universe cloaking device

Wave 1 called to say, hello baby!

I disagree with the general consensus that stress will automatically shut down a phantom. While everything that is said is true in terms of technicalities (not being able to take actions and the like) one should remember that the Phantom still gets to choose when it engages.

If a Phantom is uncloaked when it takes a stress, this will occur in the combat phase (with very few exceptions). Depending on when that happens, there still may be a fairly short window to hit it. Obviously, a pilot with higher skill would allow more of its allies to strike before the end of that phase. If it becomes Ioned, then it can still take its cloak action anyway. Of course, one could say if it's both it's screwed, but really that's no more true for the Phantom than any other ship save for an astromech-capable ship with the R2 unit.

And of course if the Phantom is cloaked when it takes stress or Ion, that won't really keep it from doing anything. Decloaking isn't an action (and the pilot can choose to do that or not), and they'll get to shift their position before moving 1 forward (for ion) or before its green maneuver (if stressed), so they aren't nearly as predictable as any other ship in that situation.

I disagree with the general consensus that stress will automatically shut down a phantom. While everything that is said is true in terms of technicalities (not being able to take actions and the like) one should remember that the Phantom still gets to choose when it engages.

If a Phantom is uncloaked when it takes a stress, this will occur in the combat phase (with very few exceptions). Depending on when that happens, there still may be a fairly short window to hit it. Obviously, a pilot with higher skill would allow more of its allies to strike before the end of that phase. If it becomes Ioned, then it can still take its cloak action anyway. Of course, one could say if it's both it's screwed, but really that's no more true for the Phantom than any other ship save for an astromech-capable ship with the R2 unit.

And of course if the Phantom is cloaked when it takes stress or Ion, that won't really keep it from doing anything. Decloaking isn't an action (and the pilot can choose to do that or not), and they'll get to shift their position before moving 1 forward (for ion) or before its green maneuver (if stressed), so they aren't nearly as predictable as any other ship in that situation.

I disagree with the general consensus that stress will automatically shut down a phantom. While everything that is said is true in terms of technicalities (not being able to take actions and the like) one should remember that the Phantom still gets to choose when it engages.

If a Phantom is uncloaked when it takes a stress, this will occur in the combat phase (with very few exceptions). Depending on when that happens, there still may be a fairly short window to hit it. Obviously, a pilot with higher skill would allow more of its allies to strike before the end of that phase. If it becomes Ioned, then it can still take its cloak action anyway. Of course, one could say if it's both it's screwed, but really that's no more true for the Phantom than any other ship save for an astromech-capable ship with the R2 unit.

And of course if the Phantom is cloaked when it takes stress or Ion, that won't really keep it from doing anything. Decloaking isn't an action (and the pilot can choose to do that or not), and they'll get to shift their position before moving 1 forward (for ion) or before its green maneuver (if stressed), so they aren't nearly as predictable as any other ship in that situation.

They don't get to decloak when ionized, as per the faq entry regarding advanced sensors.

Ah right, maneuver dial. I had 3 people talking really loudly behind me while i was typing last, making it hard to think. (drunken laughter cuts through my concentration like a knife).

Also, if they take a stress while uncloaked, they won't get to cloak again until they take one of their few green maneuvers. This makes them incredibly easy to predict and possibly block.

And if they don't get blocked, they have to recloak as an action which means they are sitting out that combat phase. Or if they have ACD, then they're still uncloaked until they shoot. Which again, is easier to avoid if they are only able to pull one of their few greens. Double stress? Fuhgeddaboudit.

So with an ion, they are essentially out of the game for an entire turn--worse than any other ship in the game. With a stress, they're whole rhythm of uncloak, maneuver, action, fire, recloak is out the window. Brutal stuff for the most fragile ship in the game.

Am I missing something? their shields don't drop and they still have four agility even being hit while cloaked. Sure they get tagged by an Ion token but that just means they stay cloaked.

Between the two upgrades we know about that come with the Phantom I'd take Advanced cloaking device over the stygium particle generator almost precisely for this reason. If I get ioned while cloaked I don't need to shoot, and if I decloak without being ion'ed I shoot and cloak again. If I decloak to move and find my final position in range to get attacked, I choose cloak as an action to get the four agility back.

The problem I see with the Phantom is that some situations mean that you won't be in an optimal position if you decloak. There could be asteroids, or you could pop out someplace where you'd end up too close to an opponent ship. This is why, if I get that far in Imdaar, I'm thinking of taking Whisper because she provides so many more options when it comes to selecting a decloak.

Echo is the one who gets more options when decloaking, methinks. The trick to blowing phantoms up will be higher skilled pilots, those who can fire in between the decloak and the recloak after shooting. And if a cloaked Phantom gets ion'd then that is two turns it isn't shooting, which is real real bad in this game.

Don't get me wrong, I love the Phantom, but it has some clearly defined weaknesses, and catching them in the midst of those times (and/or forcing more of those weak times) will be its doom.

Am I missing something? their shields don't drop and they still have four agility even being hit while cloaked. Sure they get tagged by an Ion token but that just means they stay cloaked.

I'm with you Ioning a phantom means now you have a 4 agilty ship with a defensive token good luck reIoning that and it will in my opinion be a wasted shot trying too,

The one thing I am happy about is they don't have any 5 movements on their dial, because they would be hell with that -and- the extra movement from decloaking. Even so, if given a chance to Boost, they can go 2, 1, 4, which I think makes them the fastest ship in the game now. That's not even with them PtL with Barrel Roll.

...I absolutely am terrified of facing these things outside of Epic lists. Ugh...

Ioning them isn't that hard, it can happen, and every turn it does, they can't shoot. That's a big deal. Sure its risk vs reward here, but the reward is not just a successful shot, but also denying them one, which is unprecedented in this game, and fairly huge. In non epic games, a Phantom is likely to be a third of their squad, and turning off a third of their points for a turn is a fairly big deal.

So general agreement on counter to Phantom is turrets and high pilot skill. If you put that together you get Han, or Roark Garnet with Ion turret. Remember, Han shoots first only if Roark alloes him

Blount will be solid as well. 20 pts (or 21 with VI) and he can cloak lock the phantom guaranteed. Setting whatever phantom up for some serious focus fire with the other 80% of your force.

Since when does ionization stop cloaking/decloaking...? Unless there's no movement for the ship to decloak with in the activation phase (blocking, obstacles) then it has nothing stopping it from decloaking.

Quick, semi-related question, can you do free actions when your ship is stressed? Seems important for this situation. Also, can you barrel-roll through obstacles or ships normally? Also seems important to keep in mind.

I will say that stressing them is probably the way to go, and also Wes+VI and Wedge, which I've been running anyway, provided they can get a good shot. Engine Upgrade it is. Also, I'll go with the secure thought that Whisper and Echo with Advanced Cloaking Device is 70 Points. For two ships. Worthwhile? We'll see.

Since when does ionization stop cloaking/decloaking...? Unless there's no movement for the ship to decloak with in the activation phase (blocking, obstacles) then it has nothing stopping it from decloaking.

This question has been answered several times in this thread, once on THIS page. Make sure you read it all before you post.

When you're ionized, you don't place a movement dial. You uncloak before you reveal your movement dial. No dial, no uncloak. So if you're cloaked when ionized, you can't uncloak. You're stuck going 1 straight forward, and every ship in the area will swoop in to pound away at you. 4 evade only goes so far. If you survive, you throw 0 dice back. It's rulll bad.

Of course, if you're uncloaked, you can choose not to cloak after you get ionized. But then you're banking on incredibly fragile stats carrying you through, so you can hopefully throw 4 or 5 dice back.

Decloak happens before you reveal the maneuver dial. When ioned, you don't assign a dial.

A stressed ship cannot perform actions. Free or otherwise.

Which means R3-A2 can stress lock a Phantom during the combat round.

When you're cloaked and ion'ed you still have your action after that compulsory move, and 4 evade dice. You can't attack but that's fine- barrel roll then or take an evade token. Not great, but not dead in the water.

If you end up stressed you just don't decloak unless you're reliably sure you can pull off a green maneuver and attack after decloaking.

If you're visible and Ion'ed your still ok. Do your compulsory move and cloak action for four agility.

If you're visible and then get stressed you have an issue there, as your next move must be a green in order to cloak (unless there's a way of moving with an ideal attack?).

Ideally though, a Phantom's only enemy should be turrets. The Phantom has so many positional quirks that a superior pilot should be able to fly in such a way that he stays out of arc of his greatest enemies. Especially with an advanced cloaking device, a phantom that avoids stress tokens can decloak-fire-cloak consistently in the right hands. And that decloak makes it nearly the most maneuverable ship on the map.

I'm tickled by how many people seem to think being ioned is a non-issue for the Phantom. A ship that cannot shoot might as well not exist. If a full third of your squad can be rendered ineffective by a single ion token, you may want to pause and take note.

And any reb worth his salt will carry R3-A2 & Flechette Torpedoes in combo to double stress easily in a Phantom heavy environment.

Put that on an 8+ pilot and even Whisper won't recloak with ACD for 2 turns.

I'm thinking that there's a reasonable chance that the rebel player will fixate on countering the Phantom. My response would be to try and keep the Phantom as cheap as possible, let it play distraction, and hope you can pack enough of a punch with the remaining ships.

I'm tickled by how many people seem to think being ioned is a non-issue for the Phantom. A ship that cannot shoot might as well not exist. If a full third of your squad can be rendered ineffective by a single ion token, you may want to pause and take note.

The number of ships that can reliably get a lock on a Phantom and then get arc on a Phantom is pretty minimal. We have A-wings with Ion Pulse. It really requires having a higher PS and Boost to do reliably.

That makes the counter PS.

(Turrets are good as well, but not incredibly hard to stay at range 3 of...)

I do think Hawks will be excellent Phantom Counters. Their abilities all help counter Phantoms, and I find the idea hilarious. The spies are the best way to catch the Ninjas.

And any reb worth his salt will carry R3-A2 & Flechette Torpedoes in combo to double stress easily in a Phantom heavy environment.

Put that on an 8+ pilot and even Whisper won't recloak with ACD for 2 turns.

One, no you're wrong. It's only one turn they'd be denied. Two, you're assuming the Imperial player won't be taking advantage of the new cards as well. Why not throw in a cheap BST with Wingman? I know I intend to. Maybe even two to fly escort for my stress-heavy ships like Fel. Three, you're assuming that the rebel player will always know he's about to face a Phantom. There are so many combos in this game even before wave 4, the sheer level of prescience needed to build a squad to beat up mid PS phantoms (your idea mostly falls apart if they've got Veteran Instincts on them) is uncanny, especially in a tournament setting.

Going by your means of thinking, I could then say "OH YEAH WELL I'LL JUST HAVE MY DEFENDER SHOOT HIS ION CANNON AT YOUR GUY AFTER HE TAKES HIS OWN STRESS TOKEN AND THEN I WOULD KILL HIM DEAD," and suddenly it's devolving into a "my dad can beat up your dad" type scenario.

And also, though I hate to bring conjecture into this, we still don't know what Tactician does. It could very well be helpful in this situation. There's already a lot of evidence to suggest it gives tokens, but whether those tokens are stress tokens to another player or focus or evade tokens to itself, it could still be very useful in dealing with a situation being described in the whole "this thing FLAT OUT kills Phantoms" debate.

I don't think anyone is saying ion, stress, or double stress "FLAT OUT kill phantoms." Just that those things present a more significant threat to a phantom than they do to most anything else.

The phantom is either great offensively, or great defensively, and situationally highly mobile. Ion and stress both lock it in one form or the other, and both rob it of its high mobility. No other ship in the game is impacted as much as the phantom by those tokens. Certainly, some delivery methods are better than others, high PS is probably the most important factor, but the mere presence of those delivery systems will control how the phantom plays.

Hobbie could be packing stressbot and flechettes and, while he may not know which direction the phantom is headed, he **** sure knows where it's NOT headed. That's not a small thing. The phantom's power is in its unpredictability, but if you can start forcing its moves, it becomes far more predictable.

And finally, just because the listed counters may not get to grips with the phantom (or may not play against a phantom build) let's not forget that ion and stress-lock is still plenty viable against pretty much any ship. It's not like an imperial player who brought interceptors instead of phantoms is gonna be laughing when he sees some of the above counters.

"Haha! You IDIOT, I don't even have any phantoms! You're only gonna be able to double stress Soontir Fel! Do you even want to play this out, or just concede now?!"

Im gunna weight in here and say that the fact that the Phantom leads the charge down the arms race path of Fletchettes/Ions/etc lockdown abilities, kind of leads me to conclude the Phantom definitly succeded FFGs goal of altering the meta in favor of high PS over the current "lower is better" standard.

Unless you can reliably and consistantly, which to be honest will probably be a lot easier said than done, catch the phantom in arc, coupled with a high PS pilots carring stress inducing abilities/Ionization, the Phantom can pretty much dance around the board.

Goal: Achieved.

I'm tickled by how many people seem to think being ioned is a non-issue for the Phantom. A ship that cannot shoot might as well not exist. If a full third of your squad can be rendered ineffective by a single ion token, you may want to pause and take note.

Its one thing if it can't shoot permanently, its another if you only lose one round of shooting, because realistically you won't be Ioned 2x(or more) in a a row. Losing one round of shooting hurts, but its not a OMG my game is over moment