I understand the game mechanics. It's just like using the straight movement template except at the end you turn your ship 180 degrees from it's starting heading. In X-Wing we often tend to think of it as a simple U-Turn due to the way it's represented in game. I'm pretty sure that's now how a "real" starfighter would execute the maneuver. So what I'd like to know is what would it look like in 3D space, not how it works in game.

Would the Koiogran turn closely resemble the WWI Immelmann? I don't think so since this requires a near stall with a 180 degree yaw turn. And obviously stalling in space is not possible. So I guess the K-turn is a modern Immelmann aka Roll-off-the-top. Thoughts?

Starfighters maneuver as if there were an atmosphere because Star Wars's fleet battles are based off WW2 naval combat. The Trench Run is analogous to Dambusters, for example. If Star Wars combat worked like actual space combat might then fighters wouldn't have top speeds.

Battlefront 2 calls the Koiogran an Immelmann and it's pretty much a vertical U turn in space. I don't think you're far from the mark.

For heavier ships like the TIEbomber, I'd imagine they flipped around and drifted outwards due to the inertia until they finally come to a stop

Remember, Star Wars ships don't fly like they are in space. They fly like WWII fighters. In a 3d game Kiogan turns and immelmanns really aren't...a thing. There is no difference between doing a 180 degree turn on any axis.

There really is no real world manoeuvre it maps two, because the way it works in game you can turn twice as fast going up and down (which is arbitrary in space) than on the ground, but rather than ending up parallel to where you started as you do when you turn left and right, you have somehow moved forward. It breaks physics.

But it's a fun game mechanic.

I wonder what the heck a "barrel roll" is in this game. It certainly isn't a barrel roll.

Hmm, actually with space physics (which sometimes apply to Star Wars and sometimes not), it could be they are just turning off their thrusters, rotating, and turning them on again. That at least matches the movement.

But it doesn't really match the cinematography and feel. Or the intended dial of the Defender.

I wonder what the heck a "barrel roll" is in this game. It certainly isn't a barrel roll.

On TIEs, it's a Talon Roll. For the Bwings, it is a Cockpit Rotation. For expert handling, it is.... MAGIC

I wonder what the heck a "barrel roll" is in this game. It certainly isn't a barrel roll.

On TIEs, it's a Talon Roll. For the Bwings, it is a Cockpit Rotation. For expert handling, it is.... MAGIC

Someone once explained it to me this way, and it made a lot of sense...

Let's go with a TIE fighter going 4 straight and then doing a barrel roll. In the game, he moves 4 straight, and then can technically barrel roll backwards. But the "real life" version is him doing a barrel roll and looping through it AS he does the 4 straight. So theoretically, he never occupies the space that the miniature does after it does the 4 forward, but before he does the BR.

The Immelman doesn't have anything to do with yaw. It's a half loop with a half roll. The K-turn could either be a Split S or an Immelman.

Or here, from 1:00

If you go to 0:58 on this video, that's how I imagine a K-turn to look like.

I imagine the K-turn to be the maneuver that the Falcon does in Empire Strikes back...

--edit: space monkey beat me to it.

If you go to 0:58 on this video, that's how I imagine a K-turn to look like.

That is exactly the perfect example of a koiogran!

This is called a Lag Displacement Roll and is absolutely the inspiration of the K-turn:

In Star Wars it's called a Koiogran. On Earth it's called an Immelman.

That is exactly the perfect example of a koiogran!

To me that doesn't feel right though, because why would you waste time in a space battle reorienting yourself, you'd just continue flying upside down and not bother.

That is exactly the perfect example of a koiogran!

To me that doesn't feel right though, because why would you waste time in a space battle reorienting yourself, you'd just continue flying upside down and not bother.

Yeah, but this is Star Wars. As previously said, it is based on WWII fighter maneuvers and not on real world physics.

If you go to 0:58 on this video, that's how I imagine a K-turn to look like.

That is exactly the perfect example of a koiogran!

First off, I edited my OP to point out the difference from a modern Immelman and the historic (yaw roll) version.

Yes, perfect! This clip shows the Millennium Falcon doing a modern Immelman, probably what man of us envision it to look like. I also really like the 2nd Battlestar Galactica clip since it shows a more "realistic" maneuver.

Now are either one K-Turns? I dunno. Can someone interpret this description taken from http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Koiogran_turn

A Koiogran turn, or drop-kick Koiogran turn, was a combat maneuver that was utilized by starfighter pilots to escape pursuit. By pushing the throttle forward with one hand and twisting the control stick with the other, the pilot would lose all forward momentum and loop-roll in another direction.

This is called a Lag Displacement Roll and is absolutely the inspiration of the K-turn:

I never knew the proper term for this ACM. I either called it a high or low yoyo.

I've always pictured it as a flat spin, sliding through space to do a 180. No horizontal or vertical involved.

That is exactly the perfect example of a koiogran!

To me that doesn't feel right though, because why would you waste time in a space battle reorienting yourself, you'd just continue flying upside down and not bother.

Yeah, in star wars it seems they are stuck on a 2d surface, or at least multiple levels of a 2 d surface and are all oriented parrallel to each other. Except for that one episode in Clone War where Ashoka decides instead of going at the CIS ships the traditional way she has the SD deploy so it only shows the keel....

If I was a space naval commander I would be directing my ship to go at all sorts of wierd angles just to mess the opponent up....

Yeah, in star wars it seems they are stuck on a 2d surface, or at least multiple levels of a 2 d surface and are all oriented parrallel to each other. Except for that one episode in Clone War where Ashoka decides instead of going at the CIS ships the traditional way she has the SD deploy so it only shows the keel....

If I was a space naval commander I would be directing my ship to go at all sorts of wierd angles just to mess the opponent up....

Well, Star Trek is much the same way, all the ships are the same way up and in the same orbit. Just makes it easier on the viewers I guess.

Ahsoka's maneuver was also in The Heir to the Empire where Thrawn has the Chimera's superstructure rotated to the enemy so the TIE's could exit the hangar out of danger.

I've always pictured it as a flat spin, sliding through space to do a 180. No horizontal or vertical involved.

The body couldn't handle the g-force this kind of maneuver would cause. The F-22 Raptor CAN do this maneuver, but no human pilot will be conscious by the end of it.

I've always pictured it as a flat spin, sliding through space to do a 180. No horizontal or vertical involved.

The body couldn't handle the g-force this kind of maneuver would cause. The F-22 Raptor CAN do this maneuver, but no human pilot will be conscious by the end of it.

But the K-turn is in space, in ships with inertial dampers.

I've always pictured it as a flat spin, sliding through space to do a 180. No horizontal or vertical involved.

The body couldn't handle the g-force this kind of maneuver would cause. The F-22 Raptor CAN do this maneuver, but no human pilot will be conscious by the end of it.

But the K-turn is in space, in ships with inertial dampers.

I knew that was coming... lol

I don't want to bore you with physics, but g-forces have nothing to do with gravity. It is the measurement of weight per unit mass. To over simplify, mass in motion generates energy. This energy is a weight-like force that moves in the same direction as the mass that created it. The more mass and the faster it goes, the more energy it creates.

Now, imagine this body suddenly changing directions. In the extreme example that is the maneuver we are talking about, it would be like running into a punch.

A "safe" way of feeling this is to walk forward at a steady pace and then after a few strides quickly spin 180 degrees and proceed in to opposite direction. What you'll feel when you do that is not caused by gravity. Now, imagine what it would feel like if you were going 500 miles per hour!

It is the measurement of weight per unit mass. To over simplify, mass in motion generates energy. This energy is a weight-like force that moves in the same direction as the mass that created it. The more mass and the faster it goes, the more energy it creates.

And what you just described is inertia. You know, the thing he said was being dampened.

Also, when you said

The body couldn't handle the g-force this kind of maneuver would cause. The F-22 Raptor CAN do this maneuver, but no human pilot will be conscious by the end of it.

It depends on how fast the maneuver is performed. Hovercraft can spin around and accelerate in the opposite direction without KO-ing the pilot no problem.