OP's latest argument for the price issue is that for the same amount of $$$, he is used to getting a lot more models than just that 1 Xwing, and I believe he is comparing FFG's Xwing against the old star wars miniatures collectables?

Well, when you compare the quality of our current Xwing with the old one that was made out of bubblegum, I think the argument quickly gets thrown out the window.

The flaw in your thinking is that because it's considered the second-highest seller translates to mean second-highest number of active gamers as customers.

Careful you don't dislocate something when you reach like that.

The number of store championships, the number of people at Regionals, the number of stores hosting Attack on Indmaar events shows just how many people are playing this game. Then there's the 3-4 posts per week from people here and elsewhere asking for advice on what to buy next.

Plus that... if your argument here had any merit, that would mean a ton of people are buying toys they don't ever actually play with. Which could maybe explain the success of Wave 1, but doesn't explain how the game keeps growing... If no one was actually playing it.

Honestly, I may just lot the armies out and get out of GW altogether. It's the THOUSANDS of hours I have put into painting the models that even allows me to remain interested.

As I look at my collection of Guard, (whoops, sorry... Astra Militarum now ) I am feeling the same.

I have yet to even consider selling something that I have painted. I just can't pull the plug on that much of my past hobby time for a set fee.

I'm happy that X-Wing is more expensive than Star Wars Miniatures. I didn't play that game because the gameplay didn't appeal to me and the models looked like crap. You get what you pay for.

NIce job comparing the small ships at OLGS pricing ($10) to the transport at MSRP ($60), instead of OLGS pricing for it as well ($40).

As many many many people have pointed out, if you are not playing tournaments, there's zero reason you need the actual cards anyways. Just print out the Wes/Porkins/Hobbie/Tarn cards, along with the droids and torpedos and you are good to go. And that will be about 20 cents for 2 color copies. See, FFG is actually charging you LESS for these new pilots!

It's also a silly comparison to compare X-Wing and Magic, since one is a miniatures game, and has a totally different structure and associated costs. A pack of magic cards is obviously going to cost less than an X-Wing expansion. One is a bunch of cards, while the other is cards, tokens, a dial, a ship (prepainted!), a stand, and more. It's even sillier when you realize how much a competitive magic deck costs, compared to a great many competitive X-Wing lists.

You've mentioned several times how there isn't a lot of people to play with locally. I don't know where you live but that's obviously not the case everywhere, or even most places. With the massive number of store championships and Imdaar Alpha events, as well as great attendance at the regionals so far, it's clear that there are LOTS of people playing this game. Look at the massive VASSAL community as well. Just because you don't know many doesn't make it universally true. Also, your attitude could be a reason you aren't finding people to play X-Wing with you.

I also don't understand your seeming complaint about the lack of a secondary market. I know that for myself and many many others, the fact that this isn't a blind pack game is a HUGE bonus. I don't want to have to buy and sell on the secondary market just to get the stuff I need. However, if you choose to use it, there's a healthy market for X-wing on eBay and the like. Promo items especially. Various alternate art cards and acrylic tokens can help make back what you've spent on the game. In the last week I've sold Focus tokens for $130, Evades for $100, and a Luke card from Regionals for $75. That pays for my Transport, CR-90, AND Wave 4 preorder with money to spare. You can also part out unique cards from expansions you own multiples of, or trade the various Imp Aces repaints for a regular Interceptor plus cash. I'm seeing all the benefits of a secondary market here, without the huge drawbacks of a CCG sales model.

Furthermore you go on to compare selling OUT OF PRINT Star Wars Miniatures models (that were bought in the blind pack format) to buying in-print X-wing models, to point out how they don't hold their value. Obviously X-Wing isn't going to sell for a profit, since anyone willing to pay more than they cost NEW will just go buy them NEW. That's not an option with SWM. Beyond that, since SWM was sold in the collectible model, there are some minis that are much more rare than others. That will also drive the price up. You are comparing apples to oranges here.

Ridiculous.

Let's keep things simple.

Boris, would you mind letting us know exactly how much $$$ you have spent on Xwing, MTG and Heroclix respectively so far? I believe this data will easily speak for itself.

As far as finding people to play with, I started a Facebook Group and it keeps growing and growing. in about a year we have 182 members, and growing every day almost.

I started it specifically to find people to play with besides my own kids, and it has grown to a great local community resource for advertising local events, helping people locate products in local stores, and arranging pick up games.

In the 80's and early 90's a rhino was not sold individually. You got 3 for $25.

Then after 2nd or 3rd edition they same model was being sold 1 for $25

They're now $37...

Here's part of my rage with GW.

A space marine squad has (at least it did) 5 or so options for heavy weapons, like heavy bolters, lascannons, meltagun, missile launchers, ect... However you only get the Missile launcher and meltagun in the pack, if you want the other heavy weapons you have to buy the devastator pack, which has the extra heavy weapons. But you want most of those for your devastators...

...so you have to go out and buy another devastator squad...

and so the circle of GW life continues.

Im an ork player, i have not seen a new codex since 4th edition, and yes 7th is coming in the next few months. I wrote to GW and complained in not so nice terms how upset that made me. The response.....

I feel your pain, rest assured orks are coming, i cant disclose when. Releases are closely gaurded secrets. But we did release 3 nework models in the bomber kit last year, that should have helped.

This is my reaction to that......

1~ releases are closely gaurded secrets? You really think if you let people know a few months ahead of time what is coming down the pipe they wont buy it. That if you released the units stats and abilities for all to see that people wont buy it? Xwing is a perfect f'n example of GW being wrong, unless they know what they have is **** and want you to buy it anyway. FFG realeases this stuff and we still buy it up so fast they cant keep it in stock.

2~ok you released 1 new model for the orks that can be built 3 ways. But guess what......only 1 is worth a **** thing. The bomber and burna bomber suck ass. The orks need punch. None of the weapons on these fighters has a strength above 6, except the big bomb with 8. Ooohhh, 8. Every other army has tons of guns that can crack tanks. Orks have to do it with powerklaws. But in this edition unless you have 40 mega nobs (i do ) have fun living long enough to make the charge.

3~ all of the expensive ork units (well most of them ) have been super nerfed in 6th, no assault from reserve? My kommandoes arrive inches from the enemy but i can only shoot and kill 3 guys if they are gaurd, then they get their faces shot off, glad i bought snikkrot that was money well spent.

Not to mention how the tau are capable of negating warbike cover saves.

I am holding out for the next ork codex, if i dont like what i see, im done with 40k. You will see my 14,000 point horde hitting ebay in small chunks till its gone, then i will buy transports for people, its a better use of my money than giving to GW

You will see my 14,000 point horde

Bloody 'ell dats a lot o' boyz...

You will see my 14,000 point horde

Bloody 'ell dats a lot o' boyz...

My freind......you have no idea......my wife hates how much room my hobby takes up. But i do have to admit a few things are scratch built, like my stompa, i built 5. They looked ok, sold 4 because we never play apoc anymore. I do have some forgeworld stuuff. Most of the points are in my nobs and vehicles. I like speed freaks so i have a 2000 point biker / buggy army. Zadsnark da rippa as war boss (allows bikes as troops ) my dakka jet and 10 deff koptas. Lots of twin linked death.

Once killed a hive tyrant with overwatch fire. He never tried that again.

For the most part, ork characters are unremarkable, they just allow you to build your army differently or give boosts to your troops.

I just wish the orks had 1 bad ass character, gaz is to easily killed for his points, to many high AP weapons in other armies now, orks die faster then ever, i dont see that changing. But, o well we will see whats coming.

If they really wanted to make alot of people happy (they dont, they really just dont care ) one word.......SQUATS!!!!!!!

I find it hilarious that this thread is now 11 pages long.

Well it's Thursday and the only thing they can really do at this point is spoil the rest of the Corvette cards. Which I don't know if they'll do or not.

So we got nothing better talk about until that hits shelves.

my 14,000 point horde

- Last words of Col. Hawkridge of the Catachan 23rd before the fall of Zoula IV.

I have roughly 3900pts of guard left myself.

I was disappointed that FFG stuck the X-wing in with the Transport. It's how they do things with X-wing, so it's not really unexpected, but it's still rather unfriendly to players. We've always had this - it's effectively impossible to play only one faction in X-wing without enduring a seriously constrained upgrade selection, but it's still disappointing to see them leverage that for such a high price tag in an item some players might not want.

There's not much to do but endure it, and either play the game or not. Some trading can work to offset it, but not always. X-wing really is pretty good compared to a lot of games, although I don't consider "Not as bad as GW!" to be any sort of good statement.

While I get what you're saying, I have played in, and done well in several tournaments and third in my current league and only in the past few weeks have I obtained more than the four TIEs that came with my core sets.

I still have no large ships, or Imp Aces and I do fine without Adv Sensors, or SDs. You don't need all the fancy stuff to compete in this game, and I appreciate that immensely.

This post is amazing.

He is so self entitled its incredibly amusing. I can't believe how deserving of everything this guy feels and then he posts this here for what, sympathy? lol. I particularly liked the end where he signs as A Dissatisfied, Impoverished Customer. .

Why are you impoverished? Why should FFG care? did FFG break your lightsaber? Is that why you are dissatisfied with them? I mean you already said you aren't competitive so stop whining and print the cards out.

Anyways let me tell you a story there once a company that was more expensive that FFG, its name was GW and then there was the inifty game, and hawkwargames, who makes dropzone commander, and the wargods game and warmachine, and now they also have hordes, and MTG where you need to buy full boxes to get the good cards for a single release, and those are all the time.....

Star Wars X-wing is an entry game to the miniature scene. I have been playing miniature games for a long time and this game is extremely cheap compared to most, easy to learn, and well balanced. Also miniature gaming is a hobby, it is funded with disposable income. I dont know a single gamer who doesnt budget for hobbies like this regardless of any financial woes.

So in conclusion someone needs to get over themselves submit an email properly to FFG (although I think the reason this wasn't done was because it wouldn't exactly get the author anywhere) and stop projecting to the interwebs. I hope everyone well in their future hobby purchases and I have to say the transport is amazing and well priced for what you get, I strongly recommend it.

Best,

Basilisk51

Can we just let this thread die? No one is going to change is opinion (trust me on this). Main reason I replied is because I haven't had a good online fight with Boris in forever. I was feeling nostalgic.

He is well within his right to be disappointed in what FFG does. FFG may have a bit of a friendlier face to it, but they are just as much about getting your money as any other company. I mean, the Transport X-wing is pretty much the dealer giving you your first hit of Epic.

I loved the Star Wars minis game! But in my experience, it was way more expensive then X-wing. In fact I told myself never to buy into another collectable game again. Plus it didn't help I waisted a lot of money on the horrible Starship Battles miniatures game they made.

Other things I didn't like about the game was the crazy power creep that started in wave two! Plus all the extra useless filler minis you end up getting.

When I first found the X-wing miniatures game at my local comic shop, I almost didn't buy it because of this experience. But luckily I was unable to leave the store without buying the game. =p

So far I haven't seen any of these problems in xwing, which is good because I plan to stop buying new ships if I sense any power creep. But I don't see that happening with FFG. :-)

I loved the Star Wars minis game! But in my experience, it was way more expensive then X-wing. In fact I told myself never to buy into another collectable game again. Plus it didn't help I waisted a lot of money on the horrible Starship Battles miniatures game they made.

Other things I didn't like about the game was the crazy power creep that started in wave two! Plus all the extra useless filler minis you end up getting.

When I first found the X-wing miniatures game at my local comic shop, I almost didn't buy it because of this experience. But luckily I was unable to leave the store without buying the game. =p

So far I haven't seen any of these problems in xwing, which is good because I plan to stop buying new ships if I sense any power creep. But I don't see that happening with FFG. :-)

What power creep? People keep using that phrase, but I don't think they know what it means.

Can we just let this thread die? No one is going to change is opinion (trust me on this). Main reason I replied is because I haven't had a good online fight with Boris in forever. I was feeling nostalgic.

He is well within his right to be disappointed in what FFG does. FFG may have a bit of a friendlier face to it, but they are just as much about getting your money as any other company. I mean, the Transport X-wing is pretty much the dealer giving you your first hit of Epic.

I would, because I'm fairly certain he's trolling the forum and doing a good job of it, but I really want to see his reason for not using proxies for his non-competitive play

my 14,000 point horde

"The endless green tide comes decending upon us. This day we shall die. This day we shall be swept aside by the relentless wave of slavering Orks. We shall be trampled under their boots and crushed under their treads. That foul host shall take this jungle from us and we shall be powerless to stop them. Yet we are men of Catachan, and we shall make them pay dearly for every step they take." - Last words of Col. Hawkridge of the Catachan 23rd before the fall of Zoula IV.

I have roughly 3900pts of guard left myself.

Im sorry.

They never had a decent codex

I loved the Star Wars minis game! But in my experience, it was way more expensive then X-wing. In fact I told myself never to buy into another collectable game again. Plus it didn't help I waisted a lot of money on the horrible Starship Battles miniatures game they made.

Other things I didn't like about the game was the crazy power creep that started in wave two! Plus all the extra useless filler minis you end up getting.

When I first found the X-wing miniatures game at my local comic shop, I almost didn't buy it because of this experience. But luckily I was unable to leave the store without buying the game. =p

So far I haven't seen any of these problems in xwing, which is good because I plan to stop buying new ships if I sense any power creep. But I don't see that happening with FFG. :-)

What power creep? People keep using that phrase, but I don't think they know what it means.

Well, you get more power for the point cost with the miniatures from the later waves, making the earlier wave minis not worth playing. What would be your definition of "power creep"? Am I wrong?

I loved the Star Wars minis game! But in my experience, it was way more expensive then X-wing. In fact I told myself never to buy into another collectable game again. Plus it didn't help I waisted a lot of money on the horrible Starship Battles miniatures game they made.

Other things I didn't like about the game was the crazy power creep that started in wave two! Plus all the extra useless filler minis you end up getting.

When I first found the X-wing miniatures game at my local comic shop, I almost didn't buy it because of this experience. But luckily I was unable to leave the store without buying the game. =p

So far I haven't seen any of these problems in xwing, which is good because I plan to stop buying new ships if I sense any power creep. But I don't see that happening with FFG. :-)

What power creep? People keep using that phrase, but I don't think they know what it means.

A disturbance i sense, the darkside maybe? Shrouded in shadow power creep was. Missed it we did. How unfortunate. Stong am i in the force, but to detect power creep.......not that strong.

I just used the miniatures for the rpg, those fillers came in handy for large skirmishes

This thread has more than doubled in size since I've been at work so a lot of this has already been responded to, but it's a fun thread, so what the heck...

I believe FFG is well aware of how they setup their expansions. I do agree that this is a bit lame and opportunistic.

-snip-

On the other hand, FFG is a business

Well, at least you handily addressed your own complaint.

I just. priced out my favorite lists and the most expensive is $130

I hadn't thought to do that before, but I just looked at the list I used to take second at my one-and-only (so far) store championship and it costs $115 MSRP. I repeat, MSRP. With most retailers that's probably more like $70. And as an added bonus, it's a list I designed myself and absolutely love flying!!

The fact of the matter is it seems they purposely arrange upgrade cards AND form rules specifically to "encourage" more sales rather then selling expansions on the primary part of the product... the ship.

Do you think it was a mistake that they included a generic "Advanced Sensor" upgrade (obviously huge ability) with what obviously would be a less popular expansion?

-snip-

Who knows maybe their play testers don't find the metas as fast as the communities too.

To your first point, see above: it's a business, therefore they're trying to make money.

As for your second...again, answered in your own post!

I think it's disappointing that the thread fell in to such hostility. Both sides have claimed to use facts and logic when it suited them while falling back on "hey man, it's just my opinion" when it didn't.

He has a belief and he voiced it along with his reasons. Others rebutted. That's how argument works. Sure he may have been a bit self-righteous and snide but so what? He doesn't need to be shouted down or told to "eat a bag of d****."

Communities like this are relatively small compared to other communities. I think we would do ourselves a service to listen to criticisms and reply to them fairly and with kindness. That way, we don't represent ourselves as a bunch of hyper-defensive nerds. We want to be welcoming so as to attract more players to this fantastic game and often, that means accepting dissenting views.

The OP feels this game is unduly expensive. I feel it's a fantastic bargain. The OP feels he was cheated out of an X-Wing. I don't. We can both have our views and discuss them without resorting to inflammatory remarks.

Just wanted to repost this.

The community consists of thousands or tens of thousands of players all working to find the best combos, and how many playtesters can they feasibly have? There are almost certainly combos that come up when ships are released into the wild that aren't apparent in captivity.

And there's also a resource-allocation problem: there are X upgrades and Y ships in each wave, and including every upgrade with every ship doesn't make sense. So given that they want to publish Advanced Sensors, Sensor Jammer, and Fire Control System, and that one of them must be packaged with the B-wing, which one is the "right" answer? I actually don't think the community would have been that much happier if Advanced Sensors shipped with the B-wing but FCS shipped with the more expensive Lambda SKU.

Oh, and of course they're reprinting Advanced Sensors with the E-wing, meaning most players will end up with multiples anyway (even if you bought just one Lambda and just one E-wing, you now have two copies of the upgrade).

And, to put the cherry on top, if FFG was really out to "force" you to buy multiples just to get popular upgrade cards, why do Imperial Aces and Rebel Aces feature so many doubles? It seems like they could sell more units of Rebel Aces by offering just one Chardaan Refit (there's only one A-wing in the pack, after all)--but instead, they're making sure that even players who buy just one copy of Aces can run two Refit A-wings.

All extremely important points. Playtesters of ANY game are hard-pressed to find every single lethal combination. A gaming community will ALWAYS find something they hadn't thought of (whether or not it's better, something will always be overlooked).

The interchangeability of various upgrades means you either find different upgrades in different packs, or they somehow have to manage to print every possible upgrade with each ship...and at a much higher cost.

I am very, very grateful for the duplicates in the Aces packs. I can't wait to finally get my hands on them!

I can't be mad at smart marketing. If people that might have skipped over the Transport buy it, just for the X-wing and the upgrades, then FFG has done their job. It's a business, and they need to move product. No doubt the Huge ships and epic play are a risk for them financially, and I refuse to be angry at them or disappointed in them for trying to sweeten the pot and make what might have been a purchase I'd have been tempted to pass over into one I couldn't resist picking up.

Well played, I say.

Just reposting again.

Because opinions are so frequently swayed in internet forum discussions.

"I don't need to change my opinion because most people on the Internet don't change their opinions." Uh...OK.

OP's latest argument for the price issue is that for the same amount of $$$, he is used to getting a lot more models than just that 1 Xwing, and I believe he is comparing FFG's Xwing against the old star wars miniatures collectables?

Well, when you compare the quality of our current Xwing with the old one that was made out of bubblegum, I think the argument quickly gets thrown out the window.

Rrrrrrreposted!

Also, your attitude could be a reason you aren't finding people to play X-Wing with you.

Rrrrrrreposted!

Why are you impoverished?

I always have to wonder when I see someone on the Internet complain about being poor. An Internet connection is a luxury item, too. Are all these poor people just going to their local libraries, or sitting in a McDonalds using the WiFi??

I loved the Star Wars minis game! But in my experience, it was way more expensive then X-wing. In fact I told myself never to buy into another collectable game again. Plus it didn't help I waisted a lot of money on the horrible Starship Battles miniatures game they made.

Other things I didn't like about the game was the crazy power creep that started in wave two! Plus all the extra useless filler minis you end up getting.

When I first found the X-wing miniatures game at my local comic shop, I almost didn't buy it because of this experience. But luckily I was unable to leave the store without buying the game. =p

So far I haven't seen any of these problems in xwing, which is good because I plan to stop buying new ships if I sense any power creep. But I don't see that happening with FFG. :-)

What power creep? People keep using that phrase, but I don't think they know what it means.

Well, you get more power for the point cost with the miniatures from the later waves, making the earlier wave minis not worth playing. What would be your definition of "power creep"? Am I wrong?

Few things that have been printed recently are strictly better than what's come before, with only minor exceptions for cards that were never played in the first place *cough*Fel's Wrath*cough*. Did we get some really good ships for their point cost recently? Absolutely. Has that stopped people from playing with older ships? Absolutely not. Blue Squadron Pilot may be good, but it hasn't completely stopped people from using Rookie Pilot. The ships are, for the most part, still very well balanced.

I loved the Star Wars minis game! But in my experience, it was way more expensive then X-wing. In fact I told myself never to buy into another collectable game again. Plus it didn't help I waisted a lot of money on the horrible Starship Battles miniatures game they made.

Other things I didn't like about the game was the crazy power creep that started in wave two! Plus all the extra useless filler minis you end up getting.

When I first found the X-wing miniatures game at my local comic shop, I almost didn't buy it because of this experience. But luckily I was unable to leave the store without buying the game. =p

So far I haven't seen any of these problems in xwing, which is good because I plan to stop buying new ships if I sense any power creep. But I don't see that happening with FFG. :-)

What power creep? People keep using that phrase, but I don't think they know what it means.

Well, you get more power for the point cost with the miniatures from the later waves, making the earlier wave minis not worth playing. What would be your definition of "power creep"? Am I wrong?

Few things that have been printed recently are strictly better than what's come before, with only minor exceptions for cards that were never played in the first place *cough*Fel's Wrath*cough*. Did we get some really good ships for their point cost recently? Absolutely. Has that stopped people from playing with older ships? Absolutely not. Blue Squadron Pilot may be good, but it hasn't completely stopped people from using Rookie Pilot. The ships are, for the most part, still very well balanced.

It seems like bhunter might be talking about power creep in the WotC Star Wars minis game, not X-wing.

If that's the case, then you may disregard my comments.