Just going to put this out there but the rulebook for warhammer 40k is $90. if FFG was money hungry, they could easily make players pay for the rules to play above the core set as well.

X-wing has seemed to lure in a lot of traditional board gamers and other types which are not used to how expensive miniature games are. It is still a minis game and one of the cheapest options. You are looking at $300-$500 for Warmachine/Hordes for a standard tournament sized army. 40K is 50% more than that. X-Wing with an epic sized force can vary greatly in price, but on the low end runs $150 retail. And skirmish is even less. And that is before factoring in the painting costs you don't have with x-wing.

Great points. I think this is part of the problem is that some interpret it as a board game and it really isn't.

You've obviously never played 40k, Fantasy, or to a much lesser extent Warmachine. Cry me a river . . .

If you don't want the Rebel Transport, don't by the Rebel Transport. There is nothing that says you have to play Epic format games. The original dogfighting rules are still valid and will be the norm for most tournaments.

I just recently decided to get back into 40K after a ~4 year hiatus. Some DISTURBING new developments that may change my decision:

1) 7th Ed rules are due out within a year (rumor). I JUST bought 6th edition at ~$75 and the new codexes for my main armies (SM, Bugs, IG, Eldar). These area all hardbound and cost like $50 each. I haven't even thought about how much it will cost to make my armies competitive.

2) White Dwarf is now WEEKLY at like 4 times the price for a subscription and looks like it is a thin magazine with even LESS content and more ads. Count me out on that. That used to be the NICEST party of the hobby when I did not have time to play. I could at least count on a glsosy magazine each month dedicated to my favorite hobby.

They are cutting their own throat. FFG is SOOO much better. Honestly, I may just lot the armies out and get out of GW altogether. It's the THOUSANDS of hours I have put into painting the models that even allows me to remain interested.

Yet again why FFG are the best!

Simply by buying their RPG books, and looking elsewhere for most models ( except Space Marines ), I've already cut the cost of my 41st Millennium fix. By the way, there are 20mm miniature ranges that look "True Scale" next to the Space Marines. Thanks to Deathwatch and Black Crusade, you can even have big battles with the Hordes rules.

But truth be told, I might just dump the 40K universe to become full time Star Wars. When I think of the cost, both financial and time, for gluing and painting the ships, I think the models for X-Wing are bargains at the quality they are. I can alter my 40K RPG plot to Star Wars with little difficulty, and represent it with Edge of the Empire and Age of Rebellion. Only thing letting it down is that I like using models and there are no model Stormtroopers I can use...

...hinting FFG hinting

I can't be mad at smart marketing. If people that might have skipped over the Transport buy it, just for the X-wing and the upgrades, then FFG has done their job. It's a business, and they need to move product. No doubt the Huge ships and epic play are a risk for them financially, and I refuse to be angry at them or disappointed in them for trying to sweeten the pot and make what might have been a purchase I'd have been tempted to pass over into one I couldn't resist picking up.

Well played, I say.

A few things I think worth mentioning that haven't been brought up yet:

While the kind of marketing strategy that creates an aftermarket (random draw boosters or limited edition releases, for example) is good for a small subset of consumers (those who are willing to put the time into studying and buying from the aftermarket to offset costs, or just scalp items), it's a bad situation for the MAJORITY of customers. It's true that with time, effort, and some market savie you can get into magic or heroclix or any number of booster driven games without spending much, and even MAKE some money, but the only reason that is possible is it created an exploitable system that punishes the majority of players. Most people WON'T buy a box and spend time selling things off piecemeal and making targeted purchases from the aftermarket. If everyone DID do that, the situation would no longer exist. It seems disingenuous to tisk FFG for not supporting a situation that benefits you, while being bad for the majority of their customers. FFGs transparent booster policy does punish the subset of players who make efficient use of the aftermarket, but in exchange benefits the rest of the playerbase, which is much larger.

Second, it seems odd to defend the prices of Magic or Heroclix by saying you can make a good deck for cheap, because you don't HAVE to have tier 1 cards in your deck, and then attack FFG because you can't easily and cheaply get X-Wing cards that only come with the transport. On the one hand you are saying one game's cost is ok as long as you make selective purchases and don't insist on having absolutely everything you want, and on the other hand you are criticizing FFG because you feel it's too expensive to get EVERYTHING you want. Seems like a double standard.

Finally, you defend Magic and Heroclix because they have an aftermarket, which is the best way to get things cheaply. Well...X-Wing has that same aftermarket. If you are ok getting things in the aftermarket, why not just buy the cards you want in the aftermarket? Go on ebay, you can get the cards for reasonably cheap. The Tier 1 cards can be more expensive, but how is that different from any other game? Is the issue that you can't easily make money in the X-Wing aftermarket? That's actually a pro of X-Wing, for the variety of reasons already mentioned.

I'm just getting a lot of double standards from your complaints.

Honestly, I may just lot the armies out and get out of GW altogether. It's the THOUSANDS of hours I have put into painting the models that even allows me to remain interested.

As I look at my collection of Guard, (whoops, sorry... Astra Militarum now ) I am feeling the same.

In the 80's and early 90's a rhino was not sold individually. You got 3 for $25.

Then after 2nd or 3rd edition they same model was being sold 1 for $25

They're now $37...

Here's part of my rage with GW.

A space marine squad has (at least it did) 5 or so options for heavy weapons, like heavy bolters, lascannons, meltagun, missile launchers, ect... However you only get the Missile launcher and meltagun in the pack, if you want the other heavy weapons you have to buy the devastator pack, which has the extra heavy weapons. But you want most of those for your devastators...

In the 80's and early 90's a rhino was not sold individually. You got 3 for $25.

Then after 2nd or 3rd edition they same model was being sold 1 for $25

They're now $37...

Here's part of my rage with GW.

A space marine squad has (at least it did) 5 or so options for heavy weapons, like heavy bolters, lascannons, meltagun, missile launchers, ect... However you only get the Missile launcher and meltagun in the pack, if you want the other heavy weapons you have to buy the devastator pack, which has the extra heavy weapons. But you want most of those for your devastators...

...so you have to go out and buy another devastator squad...

and so the circle of GW life continues.

My understanding of this thread is that the OP is really upset that he cannot play this game for free. He doesn't play competitively, so there is no reason he even needs the specific x-wing in the transport to begin with since you can easily proxy that with any other x-wing.

In subsequent posts his real issue became clear, this is not a collector game with rarity (which FFG has pointed out from the beginning). He wants to be able to play the game and then sell it off to get his money back. Maybe he doesn't realize this is his actual complaint, but it is.

I personally am fine with the creator of the game making the money off of it over the secondary market, it slows releases and keeps them small in nature. You get less garbage filler, which makes it better in my opinion

Hi, my name is Joe.

I love STAR WARS , this wonderful X-WING Game, and all of the cool models FFG is making for it!

I will buy everything that this fine company produces...because I love this game...and STAR WARS.

I am sorry that some people are poor and constantly loose X-Wing games because they suck.....I would quit too....or just off myself.

It was pretty clear to me that this was going to go nowhere fast when the OP states in his opening that disagreement with him is pointless.

Consider this an open letter to FFG. Other readers are free to disagree but criticism of me for my opinion is ultimately pointless and doesn't detract from the facts that helped me formulate my frustration and disgust with FFG about the decision as described below.

Because opinions are so frequently swayed in internet forum discussions.

My understanding of this thread is that the OP is really upset that he cannot play this game for free. He doesn't play competitively, so there is no reason he even needs the specific x-wing in the transport to begin with since you can easily proxy that with any other x-wing.

In subsequent posts his real issue became clear, this is not a collector game with rarity (which FFG has pointed out from the beginning). He wants to be able to play the game and then sell it off to get his money back. Maybe he doesn't realize this is his actual complaint, but it is.

I personally am fine with the creator of the game making the money off of it over the secondary market, it slows releases and keeps them small in nature. You get less garbage filler, which makes it better in my opinion

That's really not my "complaint," but you're close. The price-point for entry (estimated elsewhere on here by another poster at somewhere around $85) for a minutely small quantity of product has proven to be a deterrent to the game being more popular among gamers and Star Wars fans in my local area. Even people who played other cheaper SW games in the past have resisted this game due to the ratio of cost to product.

We have a similar challenge with Attack Wing for the same reasons, but it's not quite as hard because WK understands the importance of Organized Play.

While I agree with you about the "garbage filler" aspect, that argument is lost on people who want quantity over quality. And the people who want quantity, right or wrong, good or bad, outweigh the people who are willing to pay more for less.

It's a long-standing problem with gaming: you may have found the best game ever made, but if you don't have people who want to play it, then you don't play that game no matter how much you want to. It's easy to dismiss and ridicule people who want to play but can't, who lament over high-priced products that are marketed in a way to add to the challenge of convincing people it's not that expensive for what you get, but what's really accomplished by reacting that way to another person's opinion?

So it's not that I want to be able to sell off my game pieces. It's that I don't want to have to due to lack of interest. You can disagree with that but it doesn't change anything, and me talking about this any further won't change your opinion of my views or of me, either. But luckily, public opinion of me for stating my views about an FFG decision don't affect my ability to sleep at night.

Honestly, I may just lot the armies out and get out of GW altogether. It's the THOUSANDS of hours I have put into painting the models that even allows me to remain interested.

As I look at my collection of Guard, (whoops, sorry... Astra Militarum now ) I am feeling the same.

I've gone this route myself. Recent releases of Warhammer and Warhammer 40K (and the changes to the way the models are released, the rules are published, White Dwarf etc) have pretty much killed my enthusiasm for the hobby. I sold off an entire army of models to pay for my new X-Wing habit. Mostly at a loss, but in some cases I received in excess of what I originally paid (mainly for the pewter models and tanks which I bought a decade ago and have seen a decade of price hikes since).

The proceeds got me two of everything X-Wing related bar the Shuttle, Advanced and HWK, plus a Transport and Corvette on preorder.

I still have a couple of GW armies, but I don't plan on doing anything with them really. They'll probably see ebay themselves in the not too distant future...

So you want me to spend a lot more so you can spend a lot less. Piss off.

The price-point for entry (estimated elsewhere on here by another poster at somewhere around $85) for a minutely small quantity of product has proven to be a deterrent to the game being more popular among gamers and Star Wars fans in my local area. Even people who played other cheaper SW games in the past have resisted this game due to the ratio of cost to product.

I pay $15 for a Y-wing expansion, and from that I can run dozens of combinations--not only that, but I know when I purchase the Y-wing exactly what combinations I can run.

So let's contrast that with something that would fit the model you'd apparently prefer for X-wing: suppose there are common, uncommon, and rare variations on each Y-wing pilot, and each of them has a fixed array of weapons--so I buy a Y-wing booster and get just one of those. So I have to buy a box of boosters and hope I get the rare Dutch + Ion Cannon Turret version. Is there any suspicion that that box of boosters would cost the same as the current $15 I pay under the real model?

While I agree with you about the "garbage filler" aspect, that argument is lost on people who want quantity over quality. And the people who want quantity, right or wrong, good or bad, outweigh the people who are willing to pay more for less.

Anyone reading this thread could be forgiven for coming to the opposite conclusion.

But luckily, public opinion of me for stating my views about an FFG decision don't affect my ability to sleep at night.

Losing sleep would probably be a bit extreme, but if I were in your position I would be spending some time considering why the overwhelming majority of forum users here think the collectible model would have been a disaster for the game.

And the people who want quantity, right or wrong, good or bad, outweigh the people who are willing to pay more for less.

That's patently untrue. If that were true, then X-Wing wouldn't be the 2nd best selling miniature game in the market.

While it's true there may be more MtG players out there, that means about as much as the number of people who buy Fords. X-Wing isn't competing with MtG, so that simply doesn't matter. I can tell you that X-Wing is way more popular then any of the WizKids games, including Attack Wing.

So your whole argument is based on a faulty and untrue premise.

And the people who want quantity, right or wrong, good or bad, outweigh the people who are willing to pay more for less.

That's patently untrue. If that were true, then X-Wing wouldn't be the 2nd best selling miniature game in the market.

While it's true there may be more MtG players out there, that means about as much as the number of people who buy Fords. X-Wing isn't competing with MtG, so that simply doesn't matter. I can tell you that X-Wing is way more popular then any of the WizKids games, including Attack Wing.

So your whole argument is based on a faulty and untrue premise.

The flaw in your thinking is that because it's considered the second-highest seller translates to mean second-highest number of active gamers as customers. There's no evidence offered in anything I've read on the subject that suggests a direct correlation between sales and gamers, and any such presumption is merely speculation without the evidence to back it up.

To use your analogy, if Ford outsells, say, Chevy, but Chevy has 10,000 customers who each buy 1 car and Ford has 5,000 customers who each buy 3, that doesn't really prove anything in terms of how many people are actively driving either particular model.

Let's compare costs. I play multiple games like mtg and x-wing and SW lcg, warhammer/40k, ps4 etc...

New set comes out w mtg- $100 a box, well over that full price retail. 4-6 starters at $10 each discounted retail. Obviously you're not gonna get all the cards you need. Let's head to eBay and snag the rest. $100. So one set is roughly $250. That's every 4-6 mos. and don't forget, in 2 years you either eBay your collection or throw it on the shelf. I've rarely seen anyone play the expanded version.. Not around here at least.

Ok x-wing - new set out 4 ships x 15 full price. 60$. Let's add a huge. $60. We are at $120. Let's pretend I want 2 of each. $240. Now here is the best part.. You get exactly what you paid for, no dupes unless you wanted dupes, and these things never go out of cycle.

SW lcg - starter $30ish online. Each new set $15 full retail. All sets have 6 inside so 6x15 = 90. So 90+30 = 120. So wow, super cheap to play.. And same as before, once you get it you don't have to worry about it going out of cycle.

War hammer/40k more $$$$$ than you can imagine. Over $1k on a full painted army. Stay away cheapos. Love this game but money pit galore. Heck the rule books cost more than the yearly investment on these other games

Ps4/xbox - $400ish for a console. $60 a game. $40-50 just to go online. Not counting electric costs, or the fact you need a tv.

So whine all you like, but this isn't a "expensive game". Maybe you should go pick up monopoly.. Just don't get the collectors editions, the you're looking at around $50 as well.

My understanding of this thread is that the OP is really upset that he cannot play this game for free. He doesn't play competitively, so there is no reason he even needs the specific x-wing in the transport to begin with since you can easily proxy that with any other x-wing.

In subsequent posts his real issue became clear, this is not a collector game with rarity (which FFG has pointed out from the beginning). He wants to be able to play the game and then sell it off to get his money back. Maybe he doesn't realize this is his actual complaint, but it is.

I personally am fine with the creator of the game making the money off of it over the secondary market, it slows releases and keeps them small in nature. You get less garbage filler, which makes it better in my opinion

That's really not my "complaint," but you're close. The price-point for entry (estimated elsewhere on here by another poster at somewhere around $85) for a minutely small quantity of product has proven to be a deterrent to the game being more popular among gamers and Star Wars fans in my local area. Even people who played other cheaper SW games in the past have resisted this game due to the ratio of cost to product.

We have a similar challenge with Attack Wing for the same reasons, but it's not quite as hard because WK understands the importance of Organized Play.

While I agree with you about the "garbage filler" aspect, that argument is lost on people who want quantity over quality. And the people who want quantity, right or wrong, good or bad, outweigh the people who are willing to pay more for less.

It's a long-standing problem with gaming: you may have found the best game ever made, but if you don't have people who want to play it, then you don't play that game no matter how much you want to. It's easy to dismiss and ridicule people who want to play but can't, who lament over high-priced products that are marketed in a way to add to the challenge of convincing people it's not that expensive for what you get, but what's really accomplished by reacting that way to another person's opinion?

So it's not that I want to be able to sell off my game pieces. It's that I don't want to have to due to lack of interest. You can disagree with that but it doesn't change anything, and me talking about this any further won't change your opinion of my views or of me, either. But luckily, public opinion of me for stating my views about an FFG decision don't affect my ability to sleep at night.

You raise a couple of off-the-wall points here.

First, I have no idea what your local market is like, but the game is selling out like crazy. They keep upping and upping the production of each wave, because just when they think they've figured out how much they need in order to meet the demand, new players flood in and throw their estimates off.

As was mentioned earlier, they have declared X-wing their most successful game to date, and when you consider some of the Franchise games they produce (Descent, the entire Arkham line, the LCGs), that's making a statement. Your assertion that the price point is keeping players from the game is deeply flawed - any price point short of giving ships away for free is going to keep some players out of whatever game you come up with.

No matter where you price it, some people are simply not going to be able to afford to get into it, or will consider it overpriced. That sucks but that's not on FFG. FFG's business is coming up with a price point that the market can support, which will also net them a profit over the cost of making the game. Looking at their sales I think it's pretty hard to make an argument with a straight faced that the cost of the game is scaring people away from it - more new players are showing up (and showing up here every day).

I can understand some grumbling that some cards - named X-wing pilots and droids - are being packaged in with a more expensive product. On the other hand, if they released it as a repaint with the new pilots and droids you'd still have people all up in arms that they were now being "forced" to buy a new repainted X-wing at all, just to get the new content, and it should have been released as some kind of card pack, instead.

Bottom line: there is no pleasing 100% of your market (let alone your potential market, many of whom would remain potential no matter how you tried to cater to them), and I think the success of X-wing proves that the OP is in a pretty small minority of players when it comes to their disappointment in FFG or the expansion strategy for X-wing.

They took some content they knew players would want, and bundled it in with a more expensive ship that they knew some players would otherwise pass over. I've seen people buy it and sell all the Epic stuff, I actually am buying just the X-wing and upgrade cards from a friend who only wanted the Epic bits (for my wife, in addition to the Transport pack I purchased for myself). Bundling them together was a way to generate more sales, and more sales are good for the health and future of the game. It may also have been the most feasible way, financially, for them TO release a new X-wing repaint and upgrade cards for the game (see: all the people who would STILL think they were being ripped off if the new X-wing repaint and upgrades and pilots were sold as a standalone expansion, because it's "just" a repaint and some new pilots).

And the people who want quantity, right or wrong, good or bad, outweigh the people who are willing to pay more for less.

That's patently untrue. If that were true, then X-Wing wouldn't be the 2nd best selling miniature game in the market.

While it's true there may be more MtG players out there, that means about as much as the number of people who buy Fords. X-Wing isn't competing with MtG, so that simply doesn't matter. I can tell you that X-Wing is way more popular then any of the WizKids games, including Attack Wing.

So your whole argument is based on a faulty and untrue premise.

The flaw in your thinking is that because it's considered the second-highest seller translates to mean second-highest number of active gamers as customers. There's no evidence offered in anything I've read on the subject that suggests a direct correlation between sales and gamers, and any such presumption is merely speculation without the evidence to back it up.

That's a bit disingenuous. You are trying to dismiss good--though not conclusive--evidence entirely purely because it doesn't agree with you. It is neither presumption nor mere speculation. It's a strong indication of popularity.

Are you actually suggesting that X-Wing is consistently sold out WOLD WIDE purely due to first time buyers and people who buy but don't play? That it is one of the most commonly listed events in gaming stores not because people play it, but because the stores just want to give FFG free advertising? That store pre-orders are being filled by people who don't play the game, but know everything sells out and want ships anyways?

Sure the data we have isn't 100% conclusive proof, but the best data we have strongly indicates X-Wing is an extremely popular war game, and likely holds the #2 slot behind Warhammer.

While it is POSSIBLE this is a case of false correlation, you shouldn't dismiss the most likely scenario with the vast majority of evidence backing it up in favor of a much less likely scenario with no evidence (beyond the anecdotal) that happens to support your arguments. It's intellectually dishonest.

For the purposes of discussion we have to accept that X-Wing is very popular, because all hard evidence supports that premise.

I agree with some of the others in here. If the OP is gonna cry cause he thinks he has to buy a transport to get the new cards my question is this.....WHY? If you say you are not playing this game competitively then why do you think that FFG has screwed you over and is forcing you to buy one. If you want to basically play this game with little to no money put into it, since it is obviously a chips and beer at the kitchen table game to you. Go save all the card pics from AFM's forums ful card listing....whittle some wooden ships and bases out of branches in your yard....and enjoy. Don't whine here cause you don't want to buy a transport!

My understanding of this thread is that the OP is really upset that he cannot play this game for free. He doesn't play competitively, so there is no reason he even needs the specific x-wing in the transport to begin with since you can easily proxy that with any other x-wing.

In subsequent posts his real issue became clear, this is not a collector game with rarity (which FFG has pointed out from the beginning). He wants to be able to play the game and then sell it off to get his money back. Maybe he doesn't realize this is his actual complaint, but it is.

I personally am fine with the creator of the game making the money off of it over the secondary market, it slows releases and keeps them small in nature. You get less garbage filler, which makes it better in my opinion

That's really not my "complaint," but you're close. The price-point for entry (estimated elsewhere on here by another poster at somewhere around $85) for a minutely small quantity of product has proven to be a deterrent to the game being more popular among gamers and Star Wars fans in my local area. Even people who played other cheaper SW games in the past have resisted this game due to the ratio of cost to product.

We have a similar challenge with Attack Wing for the same reasons, but it's not quite as hard because WK understands the importance of Organized Play.

While I agree with you about the "garbage filler" aspect, that argument is lost on people who want quantity over quality. And the people who want quantity, right or wrong, good or bad, outweigh the people who are willing to pay more for less.

It's a long-standing problem with gaming: you may have found the best game ever made, but if you don't have people who want to play it, then you don't play that game no matter how much you want to. It's easy to dismiss and ridicule people who want to play but can't, who lament over high-priced products that are marketed in a way to add to the challenge of convincing people it's not that expensive for what you get, but what's really accomplished by reacting that way to another person's opinion?

So it's not that I want to be able to sell off my game pieces. It's that I don't want to have to due to lack of interest. You can disagree with that but it doesn't change anything, and me talking about this any further won't change your opinion of my views or of me, either. But luckily, public opinion of me for stating my views about an FFG decision don't affect my ability to sleep at night.

A couple of points - You mentioned "The Price point for entry for a minutely small quantity of product " - That minutely small quantity of product reflects the way the game is played. This game isn't about HUGE fleet battles, it is about battles between 3 and 8 ships. So, $85 isn't a huge investment when you look at things that way.

Also this - "It's a long-standing problem with gaming: you may have found the best game ever made, but if you don't have people who want to play it, then you don't play that game no matter how much you want to. "

It sounds to me like the fundamental issue here is the lack of community - maybe your LGS isn't hyping the game enough, or running events to promote it. That doesn't mean that you couldn't be doing something to promote the game. Why don't you post something asking for players? Why don't you offer to run an open house or tournament to promote the game?

If you build it, they will come. And who knows? Maybe some of those people who come to the game that you build up will decide that they DO want to play with the Epic ships..

That's really not my "complaint," but you're close. The price-point for entry (estimated elsewhere on here by another poster at somewhere around $85) for a minutely small quantity of product has proven to be a deterrent to the game being more popular among gamers and Star Wars fans in my local area. Even people who played other cheaper SW games in the past have resisted this game due to the ratio of cost to product.

Don't twist my words. The price point for entry is $40 MSRP, easily had for less than $30 at a very popular miniatures site. That is directly comparable to the entry point for Magic: http://sales.starcitygames.com/search.php?substring=event+deck&go.x=0&go.y=0&t_all=All&start_date=2010-01-29&end_date=2012-04-22&order_1=finish&limit=25&action=Show%2BDecks&card_qty[1]=1

You insisted that you could build a competitive Magic deck for the price of a booster box, which is not only untrue, but would also still be at least $20 more than the least expensive competitive option in X-Wing. That was my point, which you very quickly shied away from by admitting that you haven't even played in 5 years.

Maybe you think you have everyone here fooled because this is a miniatures forum, and not many other people play or know much about Magic. But I do, and I am most certainly not fooled.

Kitty didn't want to buy the Transport...

...FFG responded...

Buy or die you tight-fisted penny-pinching fur ball