Having read through this thread, I'm starting to believe we are all the victims of an...

(•_•)

( •_•)>⌐■-■

(⌐■_■)

..."Epic" troll.

I agree. I've been thinking about getting a Tau Hammerhead just to build it into a model with lights and such for display. No way would I ever get into Warhammer, though.

Do a Riptide instead, much more fun. I started a Tau army with all power suits and I might LED the Riptide and Broadsides.

Having read through this thread, I'm starting to believe we are all the victims of an "Epic" troll.

Doesn't mean it's any less fun.

Honestly I completely agree with OP, though I probably wouldn't go on and on about it.

I believe FFG is well aware of how they setup their expansions. I do agree that this is a bit lame and opportunistic. As someone said they can't keep stock. Is this because of their allocation of upgrade cards or the expansions themselves? Dunno I would guess "card only" purchases probably bump their sales a couple of %, as to whether that % would effect sell outs have no clue but I am willing to be it helps the bottom line non-the-less.

Can you print cards, house rule etc... Yeah but that means the game is not "complete", while an option and works its not something I would consider to be a reasonable excuse why FFG sales tactics are "acceptable".

On the other hand, FFG is a business and since you can house rule private games and print your own cards its not that big of a deal to be outraged by.

Given the other good things FFG is doing for the game (great models, pretty balanced rules etc) I think we can over-look the less then "good faith" sales tactics.

Maybe BGG community should create a card template people can send to copy stores with card stock type info so home players CAN print their own professional looking cards... I think I will look into that myself...

I believe FFG is well aware of how they setup their expansions. I do agree that this is a bit lame and opportunistic. As someone said they can't keep stock. Is this because of their allocation of upgrade cards or the expansions themselves? Dunno I would guess "card only" purchases probably bump their sales a couple of %, as to whether that % would effect sell outs have no clue but I am willing to be it helps the bottom line non-the-less.

It could be MUCH worse.

Imagine the following scenario.

You buy an X-Wing booster pack. It contains:

• one X-Wing model

• one "Rookie Pilot" card

• two RANDOM X Wing pilot cards

• one RANDOM Astromech

• two RANDOM Elite Pilot Talents

....fifteen booster packs later, you're STILL waiting to get Wedge, you STILL haven't got R2-F2, and you have 15 Determination cards but no Expert Handling... never mind, you can always pop on to e-bay and buy the Wedge card on it's own for $50...

Under the current set up, you know EXACTLY what you're going to get when you buy an expansion pack. Are there upgrades that work with multiple ships available in just one pack? Sure. So what? It's a thousand times better than relying on blind luck (or profiteering third parties) to get what you need...

Thanks to X-Wing Squadron builder you get all the points and rules for upgrades without having to buy or print cards. That's what I intend doing.

Simples

I just. priced out my favorite lists and the most expensive is $130, with the others coming in at around $100 (including cost of Core) and the list does use a card , DTF, from which I don't use the ship. Most cards I use come from the core set or the ships that I use. Wes Janson lists will be a bit more expensive, of course. As anything from that list starts you at 100, base cost.

Can I punch you in the face if I promise not to kick you in the nutz? (not for real, just making a point)

Things can always be worse that is not an excuse for anything.

Can it be a reason to rationalize the degree of your reaction yeah sure. As I said FFG has done well in almost every other area for this game and the alternatives is acceptable enough to cause a miner "grumble" but not complete outrage rip-off, call your investigative reporter, start a boycott online issue.

The fact of the matter is it seems they purposely arrange upgrade cards AND form rules specifically to "encourage" more sales rather then selling expansions on the primary part of the product... the ship.

Do you think it was a mistake that they included a generic "Advanced Sensor" upgrade (obviously huge ability) with what obviously would be a less popular expansion?

On the flip side they have been pretty good about including those types of upgrade in other expansions, eventually... Like PTL coming with Imperial Aces.

Who knows maybe their play testers don't find the metas as fast as the communities too.

I believe FFG is well aware of how they setup their expansions. I do agree that this is a bit lame and opportunistic. As someone said they can't keep stock. Is this because of their allocation of upgrade cards or the expansions themselves? Dunno I would guess "card only" purchases probably bump their sales a couple of %, as to whether that % would effect sell outs have no clue but I am willing to be it helps the bottom line non-the-less.

It could be MUCH worse.

Imagine the following scenario.

You buy an X-Wing booster pack. It contains:

• one X-Wing model

• one "Rookie Pilot" card

• two RANDOM X Wing pilot cards

• one RANDOM Astromech

• two RANDOM Elite Pilot Talents

....fifteen booster packs later, you're STILL waiting to get Wedge, you STILL haven't got R2-F2, and you have 15 Determination cards but no Expert Handling... never mind, you can always pop on to e-bay and buy the Wedge card on it's own for $50...

Under the current set up, you know EXCATLY what you're going to get when you buy an expansion pack. Are there upgrades that work with multiple ships available in just one pack? Sure. So what? It's a thousand times better than relying on blind luck (or profiteering third parties) to get what you need...

I think it's disappointing that the thread fell in to such hostility. Both sides have claimed to use facts and logic when it suited them while falling back on "hey man, it's just my opinion" when it didn't.

He has a belief and he voiced it along with his reasons. Others rebutted. That's how argument works. Sure he may have been a bit self-righteous and snide but so what? He doesn't need to be shouted down or told to "eat a bag of d****."

Communities like this are relatively small compared to other communities. I think we would do ourselves a service to listen to criticisms and reply to them fairly and with kindness. That way, we don't represent ourselves as a bunch of hyper-defensive nerds. We want to be welcoming so as to attract more players to this fantastic game and often, that means accepting dissenting views.

The OP feels this game is unduly expensive. I feel it's a fantastic bargain. The OP feels he was cheated out of an X-Wing. I don't. We can both have our views and discuss them without resorting to inflammatory remarks.

Uh, you may have a wildly different notion of what constitutes a competitive deck than I do. A tier 2 deck is easily going to run you $200, a tier 1 closer to $300 - and that's just Standard. Never mind the fact that the meta shifts once every 3 months, and an entire block + core set rotates yearly. Then you have Modern, Legacy, and Vintage formats, where a set of non-basic lands alone might cost you as much as a full Standard deck. And you want to know what's really funny? I've spent more on my 'casual' EDH collection than I have on competitive formats these past two years. I sincerely doubt a single booster box ($100-$120, depending on where you get it) is going to get you even one remotely "solid deckbuild," let alone two or three.

And that boys and girls is why I don't like MTG, the cost plus the first few times I played it, I was forced to play against overly competitive d-bags, one who got mad when I milled out his deck in four turns because I got super-lucky ONCE and was accused of cheating (I was playing for fun at a Friday Night Magic event by the way).

One thing to keep in mind is epic will (probably) never be the format to which the tournament scene will feature. I think the bread and butter will always be 100 pts.

In heroclix 200 pts was the tourny level (if memory serves, it's been a while)

Magic requires 60 cards for its major tournaments

They all have variants that increase or decrease the baseline and consequently the amount of money needed to play.

If ya don't want to play epic, then dont. I cannot see your decision affecting your love of the game or desire to go to tournaments.

Play how ya like. Have a good time. Love the game. Fly casual.

I think it's disappointing that the thread fell in to such hostility. Both sides have claimed to use facts and logic when it suited them while falling back on "hey man, it's just my opinion" when it didn't.

He has a belief and he voiced it along with his reasons. Others rebutted. That's how argument works. Sure he may have been a bit self-righteous and snide but so what? He doesn't need to be shouted down or told to "eat a bag of d****."

Communities like this are relatively small compared to other communities. I think we would do ourselves a service to listen to criticisms and reply to them fairly and with kindness. That way, we don't represent ourselves as a bunch of hyper-defensive nerds. We want to be welcoming so as to attract more players to this fantastic game and often, that means accepting dissenting views.

The OP feels this game is unduly expensive. I feel it's a fantastic bargain. The OP feels he was cheated out of an X-Wing. I don't. We can both have our views and discuss them without resorting to inflammatory remarks.

+1

APPLAUSE

STANDING OVATION

I think it's disappointing that the thread fell in to such hostility. Both sides have claimed to use facts and logic when it suited them while falling back on "hey man, it's just my opinion" when it didn't.

He has a belief and he voiced it along with his reasons. Others rebutted. That's how argument works. Sure he may have been a bit self-righteous and snide but so what? He doesn't need to be shouted down or told to "eat a bag of d****."

Communities like this are relatively small compared to other communities. I think we would do ourselves a service to listen to criticisms and reply to them fairly and with kindness. That way, we don't represent ourselves as a bunch of hyper-defensive nerds. We want to be welcoming so as to attract more players to this fantastic game and often, that means accepting dissenting views.

The OP feels this game is unduly expensive. I feel it's a fantastic bargain. The OP feels he was cheated out of an X-Wing. I don't. We can both have our views and discuss them without resorting to inflammatory remarks.

If only we could apply this advice to the rest of life (particularly politics), discourse would be much more productive and people would be much more willing to participate. Rather than rational discussion and logical reasoning, our society results to name calling whenever there is a disagreement.

I suppose the difference is for this game compared to others...

For $75, you can easily pick up 1 starter, 1 falcon, and 1 additional rebel expansion, giving you the means for a 100pt list which will hold its own.

I think my collection is at like less than $400, and that's enough to field almost every squad imagineable. Just missing another Firespray and 2 more a wings. Its really a cheap game, and you get a lot of stuff. The miniatures themselves are at least worth having to decorate a shelf. Ive spent more on flowers to decorate a table for 1 week.

Wow, calling X-wing expensive compared to MTG and Heroclix???

I have spent more on 1 expansion of MTG and still not ended up with a 4x playset than all of the X-wing mini's I have combined. Heck most modern legal tournament winning decks would cost more to build than my entire collection of X-wing and I can field pretty much any legal 100 pt army I want. Heroclix is no better, sure you get a booster for $15 but it is usually full of junk and you have to buy so very many to get the good ones. In this, you pay for what you get and you get the same pairing of items in every identical expansion. FFG has in my experience been the best provider of card games and minis with high value for money.

Do you think it was a mistake that they included a generic "Advanced Sensor" upgrade (obviously huge ability) with what obviously would be a less popular expansion?

On the flip side they have been pretty good about including those types of upgrade in other expansions, eventually... Like PTL coming with Imperial Aces.

Who knows maybe their play testers don't find the metas as fast as the communities too.

The community consists of thousands or tens of thousands of players all working to find the best combos, and how many playtesters can they feasibly have? There are almost certainly combos that come up when ships are released into the wild that aren't apparent in captivity.

And there's also a resource-allocation problem: there are X upgrades and Y ships in each wave, and including every upgrade with every ship doesn't make sense. So given that they want to publish Advanced Sensors, Sensor Jammer, and Fire Control System, and that one of them must be packaged with the B-wing, which one is the "right" answer? I actually don't think the community would have been that much happier if Advanced Sensors shipped with the B-wing but FCS shipped with the more expensive Lambda SKU.

Oh, and of course they're reprinting Advanced Sensors with the E-wing, meaning most players will end up with multiples anyway (even if you bought just one Lambda and just one E-wing, you now have two copies of the upgrade).

And, to put the cherry on top, if FFG was really out to "force" you to buy multiples just to get popular upgrade cards, why do Imperial Aces and Rebel Aces feature so many doubles? It seems like they could sell more units of Rebel Aces by offering just one Chardaan Refit (there's only one A-wing in the pack, after all)--but instead, they're making sure that even players who buy just one copy of Aces can run two Refit A-wings.

I switched from MTG to Android:Netrunner because of the cost of MTG. Just saying.

I think X-Wing is cheap. Go play 40k for a while and get back to me.

I switched from MTG to Android:Netrunner because of the cost of MTG. Just saying.

Same, it only helps that the game play is more compelling as well.

Just going to put this out there but the rulebook for warhammer 40k is $90. if FFG was money hungry, they could easily make players pay for the rules to play above the core set as well.

X-wing has seemed to lure in a lot of traditional board gamers and other types which are not used to how expensive miniature games are. It is still a minis game and one of the cheapest options. You are looking at $300-$500 for Warmachine/Hordes for a standard tournament sized army. 40K is 50% more than that. X-Wing with an epic sized force can vary greatly in price, but on the low end runs $150 retail. And skirmish is even less. And that is before factoring in the painting costs you don't have with x-wing.

... if FFG was really out to "force" you to buy multiples just to get popular upgrade cards, why do Imperial Aces and Rebel Aces feature so many doubles? It seems like they could sell more units of Rebel Aces by offering just one Chardaan Refit (there's only one A-wing in the pack, after all)--but instead, they're making sure that even players who buy just one copy of Aces can run two Refit A-wings.

FFG clearly cares about their customer base by evidence of their marketing strategy.

That, my friends, is why I chose XWMG.

Great production value. Great source material. Great game mechanics. Great marketing.

Great FUN.

As long as you aren't playing in a tournament it's pretty easy to print out cards that you don't have. If the people you are playing against in a non-competitive setting aren't cool with that then they probably aren't worth spending time with anyway.

OPEN LETTER TO FFG -

MOST OF US LOVE YOU DON'T CHANGE K THX.

What the heck, it's almost Friday, I might as well stir the pot, lol.

Ok. Here is an example of my rage for GW.

In the 80's and early 90's a rhino was not sold individually. You got 3 for $25.

Then after 2nd or 3rd edition they same model was being sold 1 for $25

They havnt changed a bit. The price hikes and releasing new rules sets every few years for a super expensive rule book and new army books. To except this as standard practice for all these years, i call myself a fool for buying their crap

What to say that hasn't already been said??

My buddy and I got into this game fairly recently (Christmas 2013). We each asked our wives for the game, and decided to each other that we would build our fleets separately - he would buy the Imperials, I would buy the Rebels. As we each bought a ship, we thought to ourselves "Hmm, what if someone else wants to play that doesn't have the game? We'll need to buy ships from the other faction for them to play." And thus began our buying frenzy.

I'm not a rich man - not by any stretch of the imagination. I have a respectable fleet going though, with 1 of everything (except the Advanced for some reason, but I know I'll get it eventually), and a few doubles. I just picked up my Transport as well, and I am happy with my purchases - all of them.

Specifically, the thing I am most happy about is the fact that I know what I'm getting when I go to my LGS. I know that ships come with Pilots A, B, and C, and Upgrades X, Y, and Z. I'm ecstatic knowing that these ships are available anytime I want them, affordable, and that I get what I want.

I'd be some pissed if I went in to buy a ship, only to get a randomized cluster of pilot cards and upgrades. And that's really the point of this game isn't it? It isn't as clumsy or random as a blaster (and CCG like Magic), and isn't as expensive as most other miniature games on the market.

It IS affordable - mostly because of the way the game is set up for 100 point lists. That means that you're only fielding at most 8 ships at a time. The games don't take forever to play. If you wanted to, surely you could play the epic scale games, or larger battles with 15 or 20 ships per side, but that isn't required at all. And not playing those huge ship battles doesn't detract from your enjoyment of the game.

I live in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada (the Great White North). We have 3 dedicated game shops here, and maybe another 3 or 4 comic stores who sell XWMG. The community of players isn't huge (for tournaments), but it is growing. 2 of the game shops have regular XWMG nights where they play casually, as well as store tournaments, Regionals are coming up, as well as Events like Imdaar.

The OP mentioned that people weren't playing the game in his area. To that, I have a question - have have you posted anything at your LGS looking for players to start a group for organized play? Have you offered up to run tournaments?

My closest LGS is 2 blocks from my home. They don't have the best prices, but they've been around for as long as I've been gaming (30 plus years.) I've offered up my name to organize local play at their store, and will likely start just after Imdaar. THAT'S how you build community, and THAT'S how you draw people to this game. Once they realize just how fun it actually is, they'll buy into it, both literally and figuratively.

I just recently decided to get back into 40K after a ~4 year hiatus. Some DISTURBING new developments that may change my decision:

1) 7th Ed rules are due out within a year (rumor). I JUST bought 6th edition at ~$75 and the new codexes for my main armies (SM, Bugs, IG, Eldar). These area all hardbound and cost like $50 each. I haven't even thought about how much it will cost to make my armies competitive.

2) White Dwarf is now WEEKLY at like 4 times the price for a subscription and looks like it is a thin magazine with even LESS content and more ads. Count me out on that. That used to be the NICEST party of the hobby when I did not have time to play. I could at least count on a glsosy magazine each month dedicated to my favorite hobby.

They are cutting their own throat. FFG is SOOO much better. Honestly, I may just lot the armies out and get out of GW altogether. It's the THOUSANDS of hours I have put into painting the models that even allows me to remain interested.