Disappointed in you, FFG

By Boris_the_Dwarf, in X-Wing

TL;DR: I don't disagree with your post as much as I'm confused by it.

Sadly, there's not enough interest in my local area to warrant competitive play nor is there enough interest even among the people who do play the game to encourage a steady series of casual games at an LGS. Make no mistake: this is a result of your own doing when you made this a rich man's product with your high-entry, low-return price point.



Here's where your post first runs off rails, for me.

HIGH-ENTRY

There is no comparable game for which the entry bar is lower. I pay less for X-wing than I would for any other tabletop miniatures game, both because the game itself is reasonably priced ($15-$30 for typical expansions, with discounts of about 30% typically available online) and because I'm able to purchase exactly the units I need to field the lists I want.

LOW-RETURN

Your metric for "return" is apparently resale value, which also doesn't really exist for any comparable game. The entire game is still in print, if not immediately available, and each expansion contains a set roster of pilots and upgrades; why would you expect components that can typically be bought new for a set price to acquire a resale value equal to or greater than the initial purchase price?

Of course FFG could have created a secondary market by randomizing the pilots/upgrades included in packs or by rotating through blocks (both of which Magic does, very successfully), but they didn't. As noted above, I consider that an advantage of X-wing rather than a drawback: I would hate to have to buy a case of X-wings (or perhaps X-wing pilot boosters) in order to find the rare Wedge Antilles pilot card--or, worse, have to pay the equivalent of several boosters in order to acquire him through a secondary market.

Moreover, leaving the world of tabletop miniatures games, I'm not sure it makes sense as a criterion for merit. If I go out to my FLGS and buy a copy of King of Tokyo or Suburbia or Power Grid, do you really expect to measure the value of each game by the secondary/resale market associated with it? If I go to a store to buy a new video game, should I do so with the expectation that it's an investment that will appreciate? What about books, or movies?

To me, "return on investment" is not a particularly meaningful concept in the context of entertainment. The secondary market for collectible card games is the exception, not the rule.

So imagine my dismay at the realization that a company that prides itself on the (self-defeating) philosophy that with the right amount of cash, anyone can buy any product directly from their company has embraced the idea of marketing a wholly unplayable element next to an important element of their game.


Again, the CCG model is an exception to a fairly well-established rule. You presumably wouldn't argue that when I buy a bag of rice at the grocery store I should wait until I open it to find out whether it's white rice, arborio rice, or wild rice; I doubt you'd argue that I should buy a car and then wait until the purchase is finished to find out which color and trim package I received; I hope you wouldn't say I should buy a piece of property and then go look to see if it's a common duplex, an uncommon single-family home, or the ultra-rare mansion.

The usual economic model is that when I purchase goods or services, I have a reasonable idea of what I'm purchasing. In fact, it's often actionable if I purchase goods or services and find out they're not what I expected. So how is it a self-defeating philosophy to offer a box that contains what it says it contains?

$15 for 1 ship vs. $15 for a package of miniatures in another game system like HeroClix or the previous Star Wars Miniatures game is just outlandish on its own…


It's really not.

...but then to add a $60 less-useful component that also comes with a needed element for the established game is just insulting.

...I'm completely disappointed that you rammed the expectation I as a skirmish player would have to either miss out on an important element for the version of the game I prefer or give you money I can't spare (4-6 smaller ship boosters I would use, or 1 I would only use half the elements of) down my throat, and the throat of every other X-Wing player.


And here's where it really runs off the rails: as others have pointed out, you're not required to purchase the Transport at all. You can proxy the cards you want or borrow them, or you could even trade for them or purchase them from other players--look at that, engaging in precisely the secondary market you wanted!--or you can simply not have them, because the game isn't somehow lacking or less complete without those upgrades. There are competitive squads that don't include any of them, and that will very likely continue to be the case for the whole of the game's lifespan.

What you're actually upset about, I think, is the fact that you want these things, but you don't want to pay for them--and I don't say that to denigrate you somehow. I don't talk about it much, but there have been parts of my life where I've been desperately poor and even briefly homeless; I consider myself extraordinarily lucky to be able to afford to waste money on things like X-wing now. But "I want that thing, but I want to buy it for less than you're charging" isn't meaningful to the world in general, and it's even less meaningful when most of us consider the asking price a fairly reasonable one.

In fact, it's an idea that's even more bizarre than the idea that "it would be better for me if you would sell me a lottery ticket for the thing I want, rather than the thing itself"--which is essentially what you imply earlier in your post. I just… don't understand why you believe these things, and I'm genuinely curious how you continue to believe them in the face of substantial evidence to the contrary.

Also just for friendly, looking for group, type searches.

Are Richard and Cale going to be involved in these Looking For Group searches?

You can be competitive for $85 for the 100 point level and then slowly build out.

That's really not cheap for a collectible style game. You could buy a box of Magic for roughly the same price, sell the unwanted rares and uncommons to recoup half the price of the box (2/3 is more typical if you sell ALL your foils), and then use the rest as the base for 2-3 solid deckbuilds. From there, it's just a matter of picking up singles to round out the decks you want to play.

More often, I reflect back on my days of Star Wars Minis when $110 netted 84 miniatures. That's just over $1 a fig, and most of them were worth at least $1. Now it's being suggested that $85 for roughly 4-6 ships is a "good deal." As much as I enjoy the game, I just don't think the facts support that claim. If they did, more people would be playing it.

How is X-wing collectible?

The only thing I wish they had is a game night locator for locations to post up events. Would make it easier for all games to be found on a competitive level.

A million times yes!

Also just for friendly, looking for group, type searches.

Um...... http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/forum/292-x-wing-organized-play/ just this doesn't work :/

You can be competitive for $85 for the 100 point level and then slowly build out.

That's really not cheap for a collectible style game. You could buy a box of Magic for roughly the same price, sell the unwanted rares and uncommons to recoup half the price of the box (2/3 is more typical if you sell ALL your foils), and then use the rest as the base for 2-3 solid deckbuilds. From there, it's just a matter of picking up singles to round out the decks you want to play.

More often, I reflect back on my days of Star Wars Minis when $110 netted 84 miniatures. That's just over $1 a fig, and most of them were worth at least $1. Now it's being suggested that $85 for roughly 4-6 ships is a "good deal." As much as I enjoy the game, I just don't think the facts support that claim. If they did, more people would be playing it.

Just so you are aware, there is actually evidence that X-Wing is quickly becoming one of the most popular games on the market. Evidence tends to support that a ton of people are playing it. The evidence is a bit anecdotal and your local meta could be quite different, but personally I feel the pricing for X-Wing is very fair, which in my area has helped it to take off.

Link to help reinforce the point (not definitive but it is at least interesting considering the age of the game and the fact that its giving the big names a run for their money).

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/03/wargaming-and-top-5-games-are.html

Edited by SpaceDingo

Also just for friendly, looking for group, type searches.

Are Richard and Cale going to be involved in these Looking For Group searches?

For Pony!

If you think about it, the transport is actually a good deal. It's the size of two large ships, which go for $30 a piece plus they give you a new X Wing that should technically add another $15 to the price tag. You can even buy the transport for less than $60 online on some sites.

How is X-wing collectible?

What are you saying here? I collect it. Lots of it. Quite happy with each and every member of my collection I must say.

I'm not really sure how X-Wing can be considered a "rich man's game" when you look at how much money it takes to play something like 40k. Regardless, it seems the market can bear $15 per ship just fine.

Where you might see a rip off, I see value. For $15 I get a pre-painted detailed miniature that comes with a base. Not only that, it comes with new game assets (pilots, upgrades, chits, dials) I can use. For $40, I can get three ships, dice, specialized rulers, chits, and dials. Try that in 40k. You'll pay more than that for the rulebook alone.

As for the GR-75, I'm not so sure anyone is getting shafted out of an "important element" of the game. What important element? Every expansion has cards you might want to play. Are you getting shafted out of those when you don't buy their respective expansions?

Edited by EvaUnit02

Don't be obtuse OP, you have been carping about resell/investment in your posts, quibble over his use of like or dislike all you want, his point is valid. As is your point of the way they packaged the transport with some x-wing sugar. I was annoyed with it as well when first announced but I still bought the **** thing. For me, on a budget, this game is a bargain for all the fun you get. Oh, and I love the transport to, but that may be that I am more interested in scenario play than just dogfights and the huge ships are appealing for that.

You can't build one good deck out of a single box of magic, let alone 2-3. And the value of those cards will deteriorate rapidly as soon as they cycle out, whereas the value of the X-Wing minis will maintain it until the game has died. X-Wing really is cheap to get into, honestly cheaper then the MSRP of some of the board games I buy.

Personally, I enjoy the lack of trading aspect. I'd rather things have an established value, rather then a fluctuating secondary market. I like buying what I want, when I want, with no worries. If that is not the model for you, then magic is probably a better game, and I'd recommend sticking to the collectible style market.

You can be competitive for $85 for the 100 point level and then slowly build out.

That's really not cheap for a collectible style game. You could buy a box of Magic for roughly the same price, sell the unwanted rares and uncommons to recoup half the price of the box (2/3 is more typical if you sell ALL your foils), and then use the rest as the base for 2-3 solid deckbuilds. From there, it's just a matter of picking up singles to round out the decks you want to play.

More often, I reflect back on my days of Star Wars Minis when $110 netted 84 miniatures. That's just over $1 a fig, and most of them were worth at least $1. Now it's being suggested that $85 for roughly 4-6 ships is a "good deal." As much as I enjoy the game, I just don't think the facts support that claim. If they did, more people would be playing it.

Uh, you may have a wildly different notion of what constitutes a competitive deck than I do. A tier 2 deck is easily going to run you $200, a tier 1 closer to $300 - and that's just Standard. Never mind the fact that the meta shifts once every 3 months, and an entire block + core set rotates yearly. Then you have Modern, Legacy, and Vintage formats, where a set of non-basic lands alone might cost you as much as a full Standard deck. And you want to know what's really funny? I've spent more on my 'casual' EDH collection than I have on competitive formats these past two years. I sincerely doubt a single booster box ($100-$120, depending on where you get it) is going to get you even one remotely "solid deckbuild," let alone two or three.

Meanwhile, in X-Wing, you could have purchased a core set, a YT, and an X-Wing expansion for yourself two years ago and still be going strong with your $85 MSRP investment.

Edited by WonderWAAAGH

OP has clearly never played Warhammer.

Actually, I have. Calling Warhammer a rich man's game doesn't mean this one isn't. The two statements aren't mutually exclusive.

Maybe a hobby like miniature wargaming is not for you? Game systems have to expand or we'd all be back to playing boring old vanilla chess. If Xwing had been stuck in Wave 1 I would not have bothered, I didn't jump in till I saw the Falcon and Lambda shuttle models.

For me, I am very glad that X-Wing isn't collectible in the same sense that Magic is. One of the main reasons I dropped Magic was finding myself spending $120 to get two boxes of cards, half of which would be useless. With X-Wing, I can spend $10-15 on a small ship, and know that I can use it. FFG should be praised, not scolded.

I could contradict successfully almost every QQ accusation,

A bold claim when your actual arguments seem to indicate the contrary.

WOW.......sounds like someone needs to quit and start playing Attack Wing.

How is X-wing collectible?

What are you saying here? I collect it. Lots of it. Quite happy with each and every member of my collection I must say.

What I meant was it is not collectible as in a CCG which is what the OP seemed to be comparing Xwing to. There are no ultra-rares, blind buys etc. What you see is what you get.

I love my collection too, but I don't consider the game to be collectible. Does that make sense?

Edited by Jaster Mereel

How is X-wing collectible?

What are you saying here? I collect it. Lots of it. Quite happy with each and every member of my collection I must say.

What I meant was it is not collectible as in a CCG which is what the OP seemed to be comparing Xwing to. There are no ultra-rares, blind buys etc. What you see is what you get.

I love my collection too, but I don't consider the game to be collectible. Does that make sense?

No worries. My response was in jest.

X-Wing, including the Rebel Transport, is dirt cheap compared to lots of other board and miniature games.

Yup...a kid who knows how to get out there and cut a few lawns, or wash a few cars can buy an entire fleet in a few months...A-Men!

:D

Good for that kid, who by the way also doesn't worry about things, like mortgage, utilities, rent, food, and debt. Seriously.

I found this pretty funny... of course a kid doesn't have the financial responsibilities of an adult, lets not be silly. i do think you missed the point of what Joe wrote, if a kid in today's age can put money aside for something like a table top game that should tell you that said game is fairly reasonable.

I'm going to add a bit about my nephew who is 11 years old and plays. I bought him the starter as a Christmas gift and he has bought each and every one of his other minis. He has almost 1 of every ship and is currently saving for a transport. He walks dogs, cleans neighbors yards and has even cleaned out a few garages. Now knowing how most children "manage" their money especially 11 year old kids, again I say and stress this goes a long way to show how reasonable this game is.

One last thing, this same nephew thought heroclix was too expensive because of the blind boosters....

I Think the Price is Right. I think that your rant is crazy you must not have must not have anything other than your gaming..Ther,yre more games that are really expensive to play.Try Warhammer 40kor Dungeons and Dragons .I,,m glad that FFG came out with this game.Playing it with my 13 year old son is fun..Plus this a game where you don,t have to buy paint and brushes and modeling glue for.. If you are offended by the price maybe you should look for a cheaper hobby.

Just going to put this out there but the rulebook for warhammer 40k is $90. if FFG was money hungry, they could easily make players pay for the rules to play above the core set as well.

Only $90?!? Down here in New Zealand, it's $160. And the exchange rate is fairly good with the US dollar, NZ$1.00 = US$ 0.86. I stopped playing 40K BECAUSE of the ridiculous prices.

X-Wing expansion packs here cost $25-$27 each (US$21.60-$23.30), and the Aces pack came out at $45 (US$38.95). For painted models that you can take straight from the pack onto the gaming table, that's still pretty darned good.

I can't see what the OP is whining about. If you think it's too expensive, don't open your wallet. I don't whinge about the price of 40K, because I don't play it any more, so it doesn't affect me. To complain that it's suddenly expensive and out of reach of the average player, after you've bought one of everything, seems completely stupid. It appears, he thinks his investment in the game is now all in vain as the X-Wing that comes with the transport is the one vitally crucial component that will remain out of reach. I'm not planning on buying the transport (should retail at $100 by the time it arrives in NZ) but I'm not going to slag off FFG about it. If I want to try the X-Wing pilots that come with it, I'll print the cards.

I guess it must have been the FFG heavies threatening to break his arm unless he bought more, that upset him.

X-Wing, including the Rebel Transport, is dirt cheap compared to lots of other board and miniature games.

Yup...a kid who knows how to get out there and cut a few lawns, or wash a few cars can buy an entire fleet in a few months...A-Men!

:D

Good for that kid, who by the way also doesn't worry about things, like mortgage, utilities, rent, food, and debt. Seriously.

I worry about all of those things, and own 3 transports.

If you can't get your money back on ships that means items on the secondary market are actually cheaper than new. I see ships for under $10 and lots for noticeably less than was paid on eBay. The lack of a profitable secondary market invalidates your whole cost of entry argument.

More often, I reflect back on my days of Star Wars Minis when $110 netted 84 miniatures. That's just over $1 a fig, and most of them were worth at least $1. Now it's being suggested that $85 for roughly 4-6 ships is a "good deal." As much as I enjoy the game, I just don't think the facts support that claim. If they did, more people would be playing it.

Um. More people ARE playing it. More than ever, and growing every day. Best selling FFG game ever. Number 2 only to 40k (which has been around... how much longer?) Product selling so well it's hard to get. What part of "more people would be playing it" did you miss?

You could buy a box of Magic for roughly the same price, sell the unwanted rares and uncommons to recoup half the price of the box (2/3 is more typical if you sell ALL your foils), and then use the rest as the base for 2-3 solid deckbuilds. From there, it's just a matter of picking up singles to round out the decks you want to play.

No. Just no. This is not possible to do with Magic, at all, ever. I entirely disagree with your claim.

X-Wing is orders of magnitude cheaper to own and play than Magic is and ever will be.

So, judging by this thread, it looks like FFG upset one person.... and made at least 15 more very happy. I would say that's a better ratio of customer satisfaction than just about any company I have ever heard of. They must be doing it right.