I'm not seeing the issue here.

Buyer's remorse?

Granted, stimpacks are good. Stimpacks are REALLY good. Healing 8 damage on the first use of a stim is awesome especially since stim healing can be supplemented with normal first aid. And I haven't seen long-term care come up once yet.

How often long-term care comes up is really up to the GM. In my groups there is usually enough down time between adventures that I don't worry about it. However, my next EotE session will pick up the day after the last session and some folk picked up a crit. So being able to treat such things in the long term will be a factor.

Actually, now that my groups have some experience, I plan on having more times where the long term treatment of such things will matter.

I think long term care would come up when there is a strict timeframe between missions, or a time limit to getting from somewhere to somewhere else. Other than that, I think it's pretty waiveable, which devalues the Talents.

I wish they would have expounded more on Critical injuries more to focus more attention on long term care. If a player did have multiple crits it becomes an issue. Perhaps with the new Colonist book and whatever form the Signature Abilities take, they will make a Doctor clearly the go to for that aspect.

So, the Medic is a better healer when it comes to stimpacks. When it comes to actual Medicine checks, Doctors get more action.

I'm not seeing the issue here.

The TL;DR of the Medic being a better healer than the Doctor is:

1. Two ranks in Medicine at no cost instead of just one.

2. More of the basic healing talents (6 instead of 5).

3. Generally better basic healing talents (since Bacta Specialist is the weakest)

4. Getting It's Not That Bad when the Doctor gets no comparable talent.

Oh I read it, I just don't agree with the conclusion – or of some of the assertions.

So, the Medic is a better healer when it comes to stimpacks. When it comes to actual Medicine checks, Doctors get more action.

I'm not seeing the issue here.

The TL;DR of the Medic being a better healer than the Doctor is:

1. Two ranks in Medicine at no cost instead of just one.

2. More of the basic healing talents (6 instead of 5).

3. Generally better basic healing talents (since Bacta Specialist is the weakest)

4. Getting It's Not That Bad when the Doctor gets no comparable talent.

Oh I read it, I just don't agree with the conclusion – or of some of the assertions.

Would you be willing to explain your viewpoint?

While I can't speak for Doc, I kind of agree with him on this one.

Two ranks of Medicine - eh, it's nice, but that level of specialization is really only an advantage at very low XP levels in my opinion, and skill overlap between Career and Specialization is a double edged sword, since it also restricts the number of unique skills that are considered Career skills for advancement.

Your second and third points look more like a wash to me. Doctors can get three ranks in Surgeon and get those ranks more accessibly due to the tree structure than Medics can pick up their two. I think at best you can make a case that if party healing mostly consists of burning through stimpacks, Medics might have an edge. For situations where supplies are more restricted such that you can't spend 25-50 credits every time someone gets hurt, Doctors have the edge.

Your last item I think is your most valid point. It's Not That Bad looks like a pretty awesome talent.

Now, what does the Doctor get that the Medic doesn't?

The entire suite of social skills as career skills right off the bat. At least in the circles I game with, these are harder to come by than combat skills, and having a full arsenal of social skills is, I think, more valuable than having four different weapon skills. Those weapon skills lend a certain versatility, of course, but I see plenty of characters do well just focusing on one, whereas a competent face character needs a broad range of social skills or they risk being very vulnerable to shifting situations.

There's a less defined advantage that may or may not come up at the gaming table, and that's also the matter of prestige and licensure. Presumably, just like Bounty Hunters have IPKCs, Doctors have an MD. If you're curious as to what difference that makes, walk into almost any setting - from a legitimate medical emergency to a cocktail party to even buying a camera or a car - and announce that you're a doctor versus an EMT. People will treat you differently.

Edit: Safety disclaimer. Don't really do that in a medical emergency. It's not only illegal unless you're an MD, it's also immoral if you don't actually have a clue what you're doing.

Haggard, I appreciate your post a lot. Thanks for breaking it down for me by responding to each individual point I'm trying to make.

While I can't speak for Doc, I kind of agree with him on this one.

Two ranks of Medicine - eh, it's nice, but that level of specialization is really only an advantage at very low XP levels in my opinion, and skill overlap between Career and Specialization is a double edged sword, since it also restricts the number of unique skills that are considered Career skills for advancement.

While I'd realized fewer career skills was a cost of specialization, I guess it hadn't really sunk in how that affects experienced characters a lot more than new ones (though it seems obvious now that you point it out to me). That's definitely something for me to keep in mind. The point that I'm having the hardest time getting across though is that I'm not trying to argue that the Medic is overpowered or that the Doctor can't do anything the Medic can't. I'm only trying to compare their relative abilities as healers. I agree that there is an advantage to having more starting career skills, but I'm overlooking it for now, because it doesn't make you a better healer. The Doctor either has one rank less of Medicine or has 10 XP less to spend on healing talents. They get something in exchange for that, but not something that helps them heal.

Your second and third points look more like a wash to me. Doctors can get three ranks in Surgeon and get those ranks more accessibly due to the tree structure than Medics can pick up their two. I think at best you can make a case that if party healing mostly consists of burning through stimpacks, Medics might have an edge. For situations where supplies are more restricted such that you can't spend 25-50 credits every time someone gets hurt, Doctors have the edge.

Point two (that the Medic gets more healing talents) seems pretty factual to me, but I can see how point three (about those talents' relative strengths) is more subjective than I was giving it credit. From my experience in the game so far (which is admittedly extremely limited), three ranks of Stimpack Specialization seems solidly more powerful than one extra rank of Surgeon and one extra rank of Bacta Specialist, but I do see how in a game without medpacks and with limited stimpacks (probably rare?) I might not feel the same way. And it still doesn't answer for not having It's Not That Bad.

You and Kshatriya both brought up the point that you need to consider how the talent tree is constructed (and not just what's on it). I'm not sure how to approach that objectively. I think there are some good things about both, but I guess my gut feeling right now is that the Doctor's is the slightly better of the two. I wouldn't say that makes them the better healer though, which is what I'm ultimately trying to gauge.

Now, what does the Doctor get that the Medic doesn't?

The entire suite of social skills as career skills right off the bat. At least in the circles I game with, these are harder to come by than combat skills, and having a full arsenal of social skills is, I think, more valuable than having four different weapon skills. Those weapon skills lend a certain versatility, of course, but I see plenty of characters do well just focusing on one, whereas a competent face character needs a broad range of social skills or they risk being very vulnerable to shifting situations.

There's a less defined advantage that may or may not come up at the gaming table, and that's also the matter of prestige and licensure. Presumably, just like Bounty Hunters have IPKCs, Doctors have an MD. If you're curious as to what difference that makes, walk into almost any setting - from a legitimate medical emergency to a cocktail party to even buying a camera or a car - and announce that you're a doctor versus an EMT. People will treat you differently.

That's totally true, that a wide range of social skills is generally more useful than a wide range of combat skills. I hadn't fully realized that point. And other than not getting a double shot at Medicine, I do really like the Doctor's skills. But to my first point, social skills and prestige don't make the Doctor better at healing, which is the only thing I'm trying to measure.

Edit: Safety disclaimer. Don't really do that in a medical emergency. It's not only illegal unless you're an MD, it's also immoral if you don't actually have a clue what you're doing.

Hahahahaha. Noted.

So, the Medic is a better healer when it comes to stimpacks. When it comes to actual Medicine checks, Doctors get more action.

I'm not seeing the issue here.

The TL;DR of the Medic being a better healer than the Doctor is:

1. Two ranks in Medicine at no cost instead of just one.

2. More of the basic healing talents (6 instead of 5).

3. Generally better basic healing talents (since Bacta Specialist is the weakest)

4. Getting It's Not That Bad when the Doctor gets no comparable talent.

Oh I read it, I just don't agree with the conclusion – or of some of the assertions.

Would you be willing to explain your viewpoint?

Sure.

1. Having skills from a career that support the spec don't factor into how good a character is going to be. Since starting skills are capped at two the point is irrelevant. Yes, the Medic can get 2 ranks without spending XP, it's an easy 10xp for the Doctor to do so as well. That means the Doctor may not be as good at something else, but that doesn't affect Medicine.

2. I don't think sheer quantity is a factor here, without looking at what those talents are. Which leads to ...

3. I don't rank the utility of the talents the way you do.

Bacta Specialist turns healing 1 wound a day into 2 or 3, which is a significant change. Surgeon is great, as it is straight successes to a first aid roll.

Stimpack specialist is good, and three ranks is a big deal, but it is riding on the already overpowered nature of stimpacks to begin with. Stimpacks make Doctors practically irrelevant as it is, so buffing them even further isn't going to get you the same utility.

If you are already dumping stimpack after stimpack on someone, then healing wounds isn't much of an issue for you anyway. On the other hand, if I'm relying on my first aid check to get a character back up to speed, then Surgeon is critical.

So in summary, Stimpack specialist is a great talent, but it solves something that isn't as much of a problem.

4. It's Not That Bad is a good talent, but not a show-stopper either. Certainly not enough to make one spec significantly better than another.

Its more a roleplay concept than else. If you dispose of a clear and quiet zone, its suposed that Doctor is the best choice.

In combat field Medic seems more useful thanks to stimpacks and not so bad. More a concept than utility.

In a normal hospital, Doctor is the best but in combat field, Medic wins. And one more thing...

NO ONE IS BETTER THAN THE DOCTOR!!! XDD

The problem with Bacta Specialist is the (relatively GM fiat-y) application of game pacing and the utility long-term medical care. Versus the immediately-post-fight utility of either stimpacks (benefited by Stimpack Specialization) or what I've been referring to as "first aid," i.e. instant healing care (benefited by Surgeon).

Bacta Specialist is great if you're operating in a strict timeframe, or with strict deadlines to accomplish tasks or to get to a certain place. But in a more abstract time environment, or one in which time isn't tracked, or even one where the GM says "wounds are all healed in the downtime between the end of your last job and the start of this new one," Bacta Specialist is of extremely low value. That places the Talent's utility solely on the shoulders of the GM in terms of pacing. Where Stimpack Specialization and Surgeon are immediately useful as their utility is much more player-driven.

Would you be willing to explain your viewpoint?

Sure.

Awesome. Thank you for the in-depth analysis.

1. Having skills from a career that support the spec don't factor into how good a character is going to be. Since starting skills are capped at two the point is irrelevant. Yes, the Medic can get 2 ranks without spending XP, it's an easy 10xp for the Doctor to do so as well. That means the Doctor may not be as good at something else, but that doesn't affect Medicine.

The reason why it does seem relevant to me is that that 10 XP could have gone towards healing talents (or conceivably contributing to the pool of XP raising Intellect). So if the Doctor makes up for the lost Medicine skill rank, he ends up being worse at healing for another reason.

Points 2 through 4 I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on. I get that there is some subjective evaluation to the strength of talents and that I'm apparently in the minority on this, but unless maybe if you're in a game where you have access to a Bacta tank but not a medpack, I'm not going to be able to wrap my mind around the math of:

Bacta Specialist + Surgeon ≥ It's Not That Bad + 3(Stimpack Specialization).

Kshatriya, thank you. You explained my feelings on Bacta Specialist far better than I've been able to.

The problem with Bacta Specialist is the (relatively GM fiat-y) application of game pacing and the utility long-term medical care. Versus the immediately-post-fight utility of either stimpacks (benefited by Stimpack Specialization) or what I've been referring to as "first aid," i.e. instant healing care (benefited by Surgeon).

Bacta Specialist is great if you're operating in a strict timeframe, or with strict deadlines to accomplish tasks or to get to a certain place. But in a more abstract time environment, or one in which time isn't tracked, or even one where the GM says "wounds are all healed in the downtime between the end of your last job and the start of this new one," Bacta Specialist is of extremely low value. That places the Talent's utility solely on the shoulders of the GM in terms of pacing. Where Stimpack Specialization and Surgeon are immediately useful as their utility is much more player-driven.

Agreed, which is why I wish it was more oriented towards dealing with multiple crits as opposed to the standard one a week. Seems like it would be a good fit.

The problem with Bacta Specialist is the (relatively GM fiat-y) application of game pacing and the utility long-term medical care. Versus the immediately-post-fight utility of either stimpacks (benefited by Stimpack Specialization) or what I've been referring to as "first aid," i.e. instant healing care (benefited by Surgeon).

Bacta Specialist is great if you're operating in a strict timeframe, or with strict deadlines to accomplish tasks or to get to a certain place. But in a more abstract time environment, or one in which time isn't tracked, or even one where the GM says "wounds are all healed in the downtime between the end of your last job and the start of this new one," Bacta Specialist is of extremely low value. That places the Talent's utility solely on the shoulders of the GM in terms of pacing. Where Stimpack Specialization and Surgeon are immediately useful as their utility is much more player-driven.

Agreed. It also depends on how strictly the GM interprets "Long Term Care."

Personally, I read the intent is if you are under care of someone with the talent, then you get the bonus on your "heal 1 wound a day." Setting the bar any higher lowers the talent's value to an unacceptable level.

I will say, this is one of the more civil discussions going on in this forum now.

I'd argue that you're only losing out on 5xp with the second free rank of Medicine. You're still getting a free rank in a skill somewhere (granted it's not directly towards healing) but if you're going to pick up that skill anyway then your getting a free 5xp skill rank instead of a 10xp skill rank. Which, when you buy the 10xp rank, you're only out 5xp. If that makes any sort of sense...

Speaking of Bacta, haven't there already been enough discussions on here which rate Bacta as worse for healing than a Medicine roll? I thought the outcome of those discussions was that Bacta was only good for crits? So, why would someone want to improve Bacta healing if they always use Medicine for healing anyway?

The problem with Bacta Specialist is the (relatively GM fiat-y) application of game pacing and the utility long-term medical care. Versus the immediately-post-fight utility of either stimpacks (benefited by Stimpack Specialization) or what I've been referring to as "first aid," i.e. instant healing care (benefited by Surgeon).

Bacta Specialist is great if you're operating in a strict timeframe, or with strict deadlines to accomplish tasks or to get to a certain place. But in a more abstract time environment, or one in which time isn't tracked, or even one where the GM says "wounds are all healed in the downtime between the end of your last job and the start of this new one," Bacta Specialist is of extremely low value. That places the Talent's utility solely on the shoulders of the GM in terms of pacing. Where Stimpack Specialization and Surgeon are immediately useful as their utility is much more player-driven.

Agreed. It also depends on how strictly the GM interprets "Long Term Care."

Personally, I read the intent is if you are under care of someone with the talent, then you get the bonus on your "heal 1 wound a day." Setting the bar any higher lowers the talent's value to an unacceptable level.

I would agree with this, most systems outside of this one seem to designate "long term care" as "someone with training is checking and cleaning the wound and giving you basic medicinal aids to help the healing process".

I'll have to look at my books to weigh in on the Doctor vs medic debate in more detail though.

I think the medic may be a better doctor than the doctor, though as this thread shows, it kind of depends what you want to do with it. In most situations though, I would prefer to play the doctor because of their social and knowledge skills.

Another thing worth noting, The Doctor seems to be able to get all of their healing related talents in a cleaner and cheaper fashion assuming you just want to rush them (haven't gone step by step or added anything, just eyeballing here), and the they get cool, which means if they ever need to concentrate while putting someone's insides back on their insides they will be able to ignore the grenades going off fifteen feet away better. Which is actually a little odd since the medic is a soldier but, eh.

Honestly if you aren't in a rush bacta specialist is a lot better than you are giving it credit for, at character creation the stim talent will get you one extra Wound back per stim, the bacta specialist will get you one back per day, without spending a stim pack, and if you are resting three days then you are getting back three wounds for the same 5 XP. The question of which is better ultimately comes down to a) How much money do we have access to, and B) Are there stormtroopers about to knock down our door?

Edit: I do find it bizarre that Doctors don't get Xenology and Medics do...