So I'm a bounty hunter with a passable skill in flying. (2y2g)

We've got ourselves an unmodded YT 2400 with a max speed below the requirement for gain the advantage.

There's also two gunners, a mechanic and a medic.

At the moment the GM has me in the cockpit making maneuvres that I don't need to roll for.

What are we doing wrong? How does my pilot skill come into this?

Thanks very much for your time.

If you're not rolling for maneuvers or actions, then you're not flying through enough junk

In the same way that personal combat should never happen in an open field, combat in space should always be in close proximity to something else, providing obstacles, cover and interest. The only space battle that happened in an "open" environment in the entire Star Wars film series was the the Falcon's escape from the Death Star, and the fight with the sentry ships. In that case, chewie kept things flying but through an open environment. The rest of the Star Wars space battles were in environments where all kinds of things were going on.

So if you're just flying through empty space, I'd suggest you do fire discipline as an alternate action, since you only need to yell over your comlink for that. Otherwise, look for floating junk piles to fly around. You'll definitely use your pilot skill then!

Da plane! Boss, Da plane!

Suggestions: add terrain, that means setback dice and skill checks to navigate when spending manoeuvres to move. When you make a skill check a Manoeuvre becomes an Action, as all skill checks are Actions. This can also be applied creatively to changing terrain, so for instance, when moving into a 1 setback terrain the pilot spends an Action to Fly/Drive into it while performing a Pilot check, next he spends a manoeuvre to go Evasive manoeuvres. The following round the terrain has changed to 2 setback dice due to some explosion for instance, so when he again wants to perform an Evasive Manoeuvre, he must make a skill check, thereby turning the manoeuvre into an action. Also, some types of terrain could grant cover in some form, be it extra setback dice for defence or upgrades to skill checks made towards the vehicle.

This suggestion is based upon an email conversation I had with Sam Stewart. The basic idea is that once a pilot has navigated a given area and terrain, unless there is some change or important plot related challenge, he should not need to make skill checks (i.e. "upgrading" manoeuvres to actions) each and every round for performing manoeuvres, this increases risk which shouldn't be necessary unless it's important to the plot.

Ok. Enough silliness. Take a look at the Piloting (Space) skill on page 116 of your Edge of the Empire Core rulebook. It goes into great detail on the different ways piloting is used in a nice bulleted list. The third item is probably the most important item. As an action, the pilot can make an opposed check Piloting (Planetary) with another pilot. The winner can determine which shields face the enemy and which guns are brought to bear. Obviously the two have to make sense.

Also if your ship is fast enough and small enough, you can perform the Gain the Advantage action on page 234 which is a better version of the action I described above. IT cancels out the effects of Evasive Manuevers and you get to pick which defense zone you fire upon with an enemy ship.

As Agatheron mentioned, when there are external factors such as stellar phenomena and superstructures all about you, then piloting checks are going to be needed just to fly around.

Beyond that, like any check, sometimes actions are so trivial they don't need a check, so it won't come up every time that particular action occurs in the story.

(boo... ninja'd)

The problem I have found with terrain in space is that it is terrain in space. Meaning it is not that difficult to fly to an area of open space that does not have terrain features. Which my PCs have done numerous times - fly to open space.

The problem I have found with terrain in space is that it is terrain in space. Meaning it is not that difficult to fly to an area of open space that does not have terrain features. Which my PCs have done numerous times - fly to open space.

It depends on what the terrain is. Flying to open space still means that they need to fly through the terrain to get to open space, and that in and of itself could actually be the objective of the encounter. In addition, sometimes the terrain follows you... being caught in a rather large space battle, for example, tends to do that...

It's not simply about blowing stuff up. The Millennium Falcon, for example, easily outclassed any TIE Fighters it came up against, but it almost always ran from them because they have a nearly limitless supply, and they're usually launched from something much larger. If the encounter is simply about blowing up your opponent, then there's something missing.

If the encounter is simply about blowing up your opponent, then there's something missing.

Sometimes blowing something up is the entire point of an encounter. Whether it's simple or not is subjective, but you might not be missing anything if you're really just trying to kill ****.

If the encounter is simply about blowing up your opponent, then there's something missing.

Sometimes blowing something up is the entire point of an encounter. Whether it's simple or not is subjective, but you might not be missing anything if you're really just trying to kill ****.

True... but usually the reason for blowing something up in an encounter has an underlying motive. For example: "that droid-ship-thingy out there is attempting to destroy the perimeter fence that keeps the base safe, you need to blow it up before it completes it's mission."

The problem I have found with terrain in space is that it is terrain in space. Meaning it is not that difficult to fly to an area of open space that does not have terrain features. Which my PCs have done numerous times - fly to open space.

Then you have to make the players want to go to a hazardous area. Perhaps they get hired to find an ancient duros ship that is lost derp within an ionizing nebula (something I have done). Han flew through the asteroid field because hd thought the pilots chasing him would be crazy to do so. The second deathstar, the pilots had to fly through the superstructure to get to the power generator.

While I'm against railroading players, sometimes they may have to do sonething dangerous to get paid.

Other things that can be done are:

An opposing group is flying towards the same place/thing - flying through the debris field is the fastest way.

Going through the hazardous area will prevent the imperials (or whoever) from detecting your approach.

You get ambushed by enemies (bounty hunters, rival gang, etc.) in a crowded spacelane such as Coruscant or Nar Shadaa.

The DC for using your character's Pilot Skill in Open Space while in Combat is:

The opposing Pilot's, Pilot Skill.

In Combat - the Pilot ALWAYS has to make a roll.

I don't know where you got that idea, but that is simply not correct. It's an idea sure, a house rule.

The DC for using your character's Pilot Skill in Open Space while in Combat is:

The opposing Pilot's, Pilot Skill. Dependant on what he trying to do. Different actions have different difficulties depending on different variables. Even in open space (though most checks are way easier in open space).

In Combat - the Pilot ALWAYS has to make a roll. Doesn't have to make a roll every turn just to keep the vehicle from falling out of the sky. He only has to roll if the actions he's taking require it. Those actions don't have to include a piloting check.

There, fixed that for ya.

The DC for using your character's Pilot Skill in Open Space while in Combat is:

The opposing Pilot's, Pilot Skill. Dependant on what he trying to do. Different actions have different difficulties depending on different variables. Even in open space (though most checks are way easier in open space).

In Combat - the Pilot ALWAYS has to make a roll. Doesn't have to make a roll every turn just to keep the vehicle from falling out of the sky. He only has to roll if the actions he's taking require it. Those actions don't have to include a piloting check.

There, fixed that for ya.

It was correct the way I wrote it. It's called Dog Fighting - Pilot vs Pilot. It isn't that hard to understand.

Why wouldn't the pilot, who controls where the ship is going, not be making a Pilot check every round he is in combat? If he isn't making a Pilot check - he might as well be in the Engine room, fixing the Hyper-Drive. But if he's in that seat, he better be flying his ass off every chance he has.

Many people mentioned to "fly to terrain." Which is a valid option. But that doesn't have to be the only option, especially when it ISN'T an option. Another option is to just make a DC vs the other pilot's Pilot skill.

Don't correct what other people say, please.

I don't know where you got that idea, but that is simply not correct. It's an idea sure, a house rule.

I got the idea based off of reasonable assumptions about historical Dog Fighting - just like Star Wars Space Combat did in the first place. A Pilot's skill in open air is only as good as the Pilot he's chasing or being chased by.

Pilot vs Pilot.

It's about as good a house rule as "fly to terrain" when there isn't any. The OP asked for it to be explained like he was a 5 year old. I don't know how it could be any more self explanatory than it actually is.

Don't correct what other people say, please.

Even if the "information" they are providing is not in the rules? Or worse, may mislead those not intimately familiar with the system?

I don't know where you got that idea, but that is simply not correct. It's an idea sure, a house rule.

I got the idea based off of reasonable assumptions about historical Dog Fighting - just like Star Wars Space Combat did in the first place. A Pilot's skill in open air is only as good as the Pilot he's chasing or being chased by.

Pilot vs Pilot.

It's about as good a house rule as "fly to terrain" when there isn't any. The OP asked for it to be explained like he was a 5 year old. I don't know how it could be any more self explanatory than it actually is.

I think the point you may be neglecting, is that the OP was asking for a simplified explanation of the actual rules. Not a houserule re-imagining of them geared toward a dumbed down concept. Subtle but important distinction, IMO.

I don't know where you got that idea, but that is simply not correct. It's an idea sure, a house rule.

I got the idea based off of reasonable assumptions about historical Dog Fighting

So Chapter 7 isn't something you consider important...?

Look, I get that your method "makes sense" and I've played plenty of systems that use methods exactly like it. FFG's Star Wars... not one of em.

That's part the trouble the OP is having, this games breaks a lot of the paradigms on how vehicular combat works. It does this to allow the pilot player to do more then one piloting roll after another and make the game a little more tactical.

One such paradigm is that of basic flight. You don't need to roll every turn to keep the ship in the air, the game assumes everyone is a sufficient pilot that if they decide to adjust the radio they won't go careening off the road.

So in a dogfight, in FFG's system, yes, you can make an opposed check, and that will provide certain benefits (pg116).

Gain the Advantage (Pg 234) is another useful dogfighting maneuver that has a base difficulty dependent on the speed of the opponent. But it's benefits are a little different, and jockeying for the Advantage gets harder as you go. Depending on your ship, and that of your opponent, and what actions your opponent is, or is not taking, GtA may not be the best option.

Fly/Drive (Pg 232) is a maneuver you can use to move closer to or further away from a specific thing. If you're in clear terrain it's a Maneuver, and you don't have to roll. In terrain (or if you're doing something special like a race) it's upgraded to an Action and you do have to roll, with the difficulty based on the terrain. But this maneuver is only used when you are changing range bands with something. If you don't want to change range bands with anything, you don't have to take this maneuver at all. Your ship won't suddenly crash, or explode, it just means your character is focused on other things (like operating the guns, sensors, ect).

Evasive Maneuvers, and Stay on Target (Pg. 232&33) are simple Maneuvers that require no check. You can just do them. They provide bonuses related to being shot, and shooting. While these look like minor maneuvers, they play into the greater dogfight dance, as Evasive Maneuvers can be a factor in deciding if you want to GtA or not.

Accelerate/Decelerate (Pg 232) is fairly self explanatory. Again, this is one you can just do. However, your speed plays an important part in Piloting difficulties related to terrain, so if you're operating in terrain, you'll need to do things like balance the difficulty risk against the benefits of speed.

Punch It! (Pg233) is used to get your ship up to speed in a single Maneuver at the expense of System Strain. Handy if you get jumped, or suddenly have to go from "Fly casual" to "We are so frelled." Again, it's just a simple Maneuver.

Now, you'll notice that's a lot of simple Maneuvers, and thats where things get good, as you know, you are able to perform one Maneuver, and one Action without penalty each round. So, with all those simple Maneuvers, your character will be free to take a full blown action as well. Use the senors, Shoot the guns, Jam their transmissions, Angle the shields, and any number of other Actions (or Maneuvers) are available. And that's the great thing about this system: The Pilot isn't just a monkey with a bunch of dice, he's a thinking sentient who's got to look at the situation and make a call.

There's a lot more to it, but I think this post is too long as is...maybe more later...

Now, you'll notice that's a lot of simple Maneuvers, and thats where things get good, as you know, you are able to perform one Maneuver, and one Action without penalty each round. So, with all those simple Maneuvers, your character will be free to take a full blown action as well...

...or convert his Action into a second Maneuver (the ship would take 2 system strain). Or even take his Action, Maneuver, and add a second Maneuver at the cost of 2 personal strain (the ship still takes those 2 system strain).

Oh, the myriad possibilities...

I'm not big on the present rules for dogfighting, open space dogfighting happens all the time in Star Wars. This is how I have been doing it and it has been working really well:

In open space dog fighting, I make the pilot perform An oppose piloting check against the other pilot on their turn (if against multiple ships, the pilot with the best piloting skill). The winner gets to determine what side of the opposing ship they get to attack and what combat maneuvers they would like to attempt on their next turn (unless the opposing pilot wins their piloting check before the other pilots next turn). Setback dice are provided to the oppose rolls to the ship going slower (1 setback for each speed slower).

It sounds a little confusing as written, but very simple in practice.

I don't know where you got that idea, but that is simply not correct. It's an idea sure, a house rule.

I got the idea based off of reasonable assumptions about historical Dog Fighting

So in a dogfight, in FFG's system, yes, you can make an opposed check, and that will provide certain benefits (pg116).

So what you're saying is that what I said is actually in the rules. You've just confirmed that what I said wasn't even a house rule. It's a simple rule and game mechanic in the CRB. What's the problem?

I don't know where you got that idea, but that is simply not correct. It's an idea sure, a house rule.

I got the idea based off of reasonable assumptions about historical Dog Fighting - just like Star Wars Space Combat did in the first place. A Pilot's skill in open air is only as good as the Pilot he's chasing or being chased by.

Pilot vs Pilot.

It's about as good a house rule as "fly to terrain" when there isn't any. The OP asked for it to be explained like he was a 5 year old. I don't know how it could be any more self explanatory than it actually is.

I think the point you may be neglecting, is that the OP was asking for a simplified explanation of the actual rules. Not a houserule re-imagining of them geared toward a dumbed down concept. Subtle but important distinction, IMO.

It is an "actual" rule. If you don't have anything else to do - just roll a Pilot vs Pilot. It doesn't get any more simplified than that.

Don't correct what other people say, please.

Even if the "information" they are providing is not in the rules? Or worse, may mislead those not intimately familiar with the system?

Are you saying Pilot vs Pilot isn't in the rules?

How is it misleading to tell someone that instead of looking for some terrain that the GM might not have even put into the encounter, that if they need something to do as the Pilot, they should just make a Pilot vs Pilot check?

How does this, even if it WERE a house rule, complicate a game that openly allows the players and GM to be creative with their own game. How is it misleading to assume that 2 opposing Pilots that are engaged in a Dog-Fight would need something other than the other Pilot's skill as a difficulty check?

The Opposed piloting check is generally used when you have two ships fighting each other that don't have access to the "Gain the Advantage" maneuver... basically for speed 3 and under. Generally the freighters aren't exactly going to be doing heavy dogfighting in the same way an X-wing or A-wing might, but there's a decent chance they'll be going up against fighter craft that are very capable of doing it, and in that case, Gain the Advantage effectively overrides any sort of opposed check.

While it is a bit long to listen to, Episode 25 of the Order 66 Podcast with Sam Stewart does a full-on walkthrough and "how to" when it comes to Space Combat, and its very helpful. It's just personal combat in space. So in that respect, in the same way one doesn't need to roll an athletics check to take cover behind some crates, it doesn't require a roll to take evasive maneuvers. On the other hand, an athletics check is needed to walk over a narrow catwalk while in combat, a roll would be needed to fly around debris.

Anyway, here's the podcast link.

The Order 66 Podcast Episode 25 - Great, Sam! Don't Get Cocky!