I've not been to a tournament yet (I'm a real n00b - I'm essentially still playing by quick-start rules with my wife), but I'm wondering what the rule-nazi/hippie cultures are at these tournaments.

Are there some regions/tournaments/locations where the people are more likely to be rule nazis and others where there are more rule hippies? What are your experiences?

My experiences, across several cities and including last year's national tournament at GenCon, have been very positive. There's an informal campaign across most of the major fan sites to "Fly Casual"--meaning, in my personal paraphrase, that if someone wandered up to watch your match they'd think "that seems like a really cool game!" rather than "okay, let's edge slowly away from those hypercompetitive jerks".

Personally, with respect both to your question and the thread topic, I do a lot of things before and during each match:

• Tell my opponent explicitly about what I'm flying, and ask if he or she has any questions about my pilot abilities, upgrades, or possible interactions.
• Ask if I can familiarize myself with my opponent's list, and ask questions ahead of time about the same.
• Offer to let my opponent count, shuffle, and/or cut my damage deck.
• Ask my opponent if he or she wants to share a range ruler and set of movement templates.
• In the case of borderline issues (e.g., a shot that's right on the border between Range 1 and Range 2), offer to let either my opponent or a handy third party make the call.
• Strictly enforce the rules on myself, whenever possible--that is, know the rules thoroughly, and make sure I play by them.
• Politely remind my opponent of any rules issues that come up during play, as soon as they come up.
• If a rules issue turns into a rules dispute , be willing to politely but firmly request that we get a ruling from the TO (as opposed to getting in an argument).
• Be willing to accept a TO's ruling with grace regardless of whether I agree.

Lol, ya I know from before after moving ships we both be trying to wonder who had the stress token, and who did this tl belong to.

I have been getting a lot better at moving me stress and TL along with my ships.

I even move my friends cause he forgets sometimes,but for the most part we are getting pretty good.

I try not to touch my opponents ships /tokens during tournamentplay, unless they tell me to.

Has anyone ever gotten into a dispute where the To had to make the final call?

Has it ever gotten ugly?

Anyone ever get disqualified due to poor sportsmanship?

The Imdaar Alpha event isn't specified as Casual or Competetive. Those designations are up to the TO, and thus, generally, the event location and what type of environment they want to encourage. The store I TO for has a very laid back family-friendly vibe. They want new players to feel free to come in without worry. Another store might prefer to host a more competitive scene, whether for prestige or because the local players want that.

you notice, but don't say anything, then your are considered cheating?

Technically yes. That extra dice isn't optional it's required and if you notice but don't see anything you're not playing according to the rules.

Plus that IMO it's pretty poor sportsmanship to not point out stuff like that.

Other questions then arise, like how do you prove it, and how do you enforce it?

That's the trick, there is no way.

While it is true that you cannot prove someone did or did not notice an incorrect game event, I think the point here is that you aren't supposed to enforce it in your competitors.

This issue, if you'll excuse me for getting a little existential, is that this all comes down to how you are and act as a human being in civilized society in general. As an atheist, I choose to do good to others because I know that it is right, not because I think there's an invisible set of eyes watching my every move motivating me to do the right thing, not because it's right, but because I want the big prize at the end of the game show. "IT'S A BRAND NEW CAR HALO!!!"

If you notice that I'm not throwing the correct amount of defense dice and choose not to say something in order to give yourself an unfair advantage, then it is not something that can be proven or enforced within the game by other people. The point here is that you should be enforcing yourself.

Chances are that if you would let something of this caliber not phase you as a person then there's a strong possibility that you feel no sting of guilt by cheating people in your daily life.

I realize I got a little heavy here on a message board for a board game, but the moral of this story is that cheating is wrong on any level in your life, be it a silly game or an important moral decision, and can have a profound impact on your character as a person if left unchecked. Nobody likes playing games with people who cheat, and if you aren't playing games to have fun then the ultimate irony here is that you aren't just cheating those you play with, you are cheating yourself .

In friendly and local matches, I'm more than happy to point out missed opportunities to new and experienced players the first couple times. I've done it plenty and have introduced this game to nearly a dozen people. What's surprised me is how often I'm asked to stop reminding them. The common reasoning behind this is along the lines of "If I can't remember, I need to learn the hard way."

What I'm having a difficult time with is the pervasive idea here that missed opportunities make players cheaters. Not that missing their own opportunities is cheating, but if their opponent "notices" and doesn't say anything, that opponent is cheating. At what point did it become a requirement for players to ensure their opponents aren't missing opportunities in a competitive setting? The FAQ's "Competitive Play" section explicitly states that missed opportunities are just that. It further states that " these rules are not intended to punish players, or encourage players to rush through timing windows in order to deny their opponent an opportunity. " It doesn't go on to say something to the effect of "Players who do not remind their opponent's to take actions, resolve abilities or place maneuver dials are poor sportsman and should refrain from allowing their opponent to miss opportunities." FFG seems to understand this stuff happens, and saw fit to include an entry to explain how to handle it. Missing an opportunity doesn't put the game in an "illegal state."

Each player is responsible for their own squadron builds. If you put a Stealth Device on your ship, yet forget to take that extra defense die, it could cost you. I consider it unrealistic and irresponsible to expect your opponent to remind you of this, and if they don't, call them a cheater.

"Good game!"

"You too! May I offer some advice?"

"Sure!"

"I noticed you forgot to include your extra die on Howlrunner a couple of times. It probably would've helped keep her around an extra turn or two. Seems you did fine without her though. Nice win!"

"You noticed and didn't say anything? That's cheating."

This just doesn't make any sense.

I give plenty of time and opportunity for my opponent to make their decisions, call their shots, set up their dials and perform their actions. I congratulate my opponents on wins, and I acknowledge and am grateful for games when I lose. In competitive play, if my opponent misses an opportunity, that's on them. Their squadron is in their hands. I consider it a disservice to tell them every time they've missed an opportunity. That makes them dependent.

Not that missing their own opportunities is cheating, but if their opponent "notices" and doesn't say anything, that opponent is cheating. At what point did it become a requirement for players to ensure their opponents aren't missing opportunities in a competitive setting?

...

"I noticed you forgot to include your extra die on Howlrunner a couple of times. It probably would've helped keep her around an extra turn or two. Seems you did fine without her though. Nice win!"

"You noticed and didn't say anything? That's cheating."

This just doesn't make any sense.

I think you're misunderstanding the point being made here.

If something has a "may" then it's a choice, and missing that choice is missing an opportunity. Howlrunner says you may reroll dice. That's a choice, and if you forget to use it, a missed opportunity. You're under no obligation to point out to your opponent that they could use Howlrunner to reroll that blank die.

But there are a lot of things in the game that aren't optional. Stealth Device is the common example I use. There's no choice there. That ship has 4 agility instead of 3, just as surely as if it's printed on the card. That isn't an opportunity for either player, it just is, and if you're rolling the wrong number of dice you're playing it wrong. And playing wrong in order to gain an advantage is pretty much the core definition of cheating. It shouldn't really matter if it's your dice or your opponent's, both players have a responsibility to enforce the basic rules.

It's akin to watching your opponent take their 5-straight movement template, and proceed to use it as a barrel roll right off the edge of the table. Sure, he's down a ship which is to your advantage, but because what just happened doesn't correspond to the basic rules of the game it would be wrong to wait until the end of the game to say something.

I do understand your point and that my example of the extreme barrel roll is, well, extreme, and when people ask you not to remind them of their missed opportunities, but this and the defense dice thing is not an opportunity, it's a game mechanic that isn't optional.

But there are a lot of things in the game that aren't optional. Stealth Device is the common example I use. There's no choice there. That ship has 4 agility instead of 3, just as surely as if it's printed on the card. That isn't an opportunity for either player, it just is, and if you're rolling the wrong number of dice you're playing it wrong. And playing wrong in order to gain an advantage is pretty much the core definition of cheating. It shouldn't really matter if it's your dice or your opponent's, both players have a responsibility to enforce the basic rules.

Saying my opponent is a cheater because they didn't remind me to roll an extra evade die for SD causes issues for me. First, I'd have to make the assumption they noticed and didn't say anything. Next, I'd need to assume they did it to gain an advantage, therefore making them a cheater. Finally, I'd have to overlook the fact I forgot to do it, too. I'd certainly have a hard time accusing my opponent of cheating due to an oversight on both our parts to roll the correct number of defense dice. My point of contention here is determining intent. Flat out calling players cheaters because they didn't observe an upgrade card or status effect in time to make a difference doesn't feel right.

I realize my "example" isn't as helpful as I tried to make it. My intent there was to illustrate a situation where somebody noticed a missing die after the fact that the ship was destroyed and the game was over.

Saying my opponent is a cheater because they didn't remind me to roll an extra evade die for SD causes issues for me.

You're missing the whole point.

Buhallin and others such as myself aren't saying we'd accuse someone else of cheating. We're saying we'd feel like we were cheating if we noticed something like this and didn't say anything.

Saying my opponent is a cheater because they didn't remind me to roll an extra evade die for SD causes issues for me. First, I'd have to make the assumption they noticed and didn't say anything. Next, I'd need to assume they did it to gain an advantage, therefore making them a cheater. Finally, I'd have to overlook the fact I forgot to do it, too. I'd certainly have a hard time accusing my opponent of cheating due to an oversight on both our parts to roll the correct number of defense dice. My point of contention here is determining intent. Flat out calling players cheaters because they didn't observe an upgrade card or status effect in time to make a difference doesn't feel right.

And if you read, you'll notice that I acknowledge all this.

It comes down largely to intent. If you see it and choose not to point it out because it gives you an advantage, that's cheating. I can't prove you noticed it, so I don't poke that at other people.

What I do, which is what the OP's question was about, is hold myself to that standard. If I see you forgetting to pick up an extra die for your Stealth Device, I'll point it out. There's no choice there. I can't prove intent, or whether you noticed it, so I wouldn't even try. Whether you noticed it would be between you and your conscience (or lack thereof).

Which, again, I said before.

I read this...

Things I ALWAYS enforce: Non-optional game effects. If your opponent forgets to add his extra defense die from range or a Stealth Device, and you notice it but don't remind him, you're cheating - period. You're responsible for your own actions, but mandatory effects are the responsibility of both players.

.. and this...

I think you're misunderstanding the point being made here.

If something has a "may" then it's a choice, and missing that choice is missing an opportunity. Howlrunner says you may reroll dice. That's a choice, and if you forget to use it, a missed opportunity. You're under no obligation to point out to your opponent that they could use Howlrunner to reroll that blank die.

But there are a lot of things in the game that aren't optional. Stealth Device is the common example I use. There's no choice there. That ship has 4 agility instead of 3, just as surely as if it's printed on the card. That isn't an opportunity for either player, it just is, and if you're rolling the wrong number of dice you're playing it wrong. And playing wrong in order to gain an advantage is pretty much the core definition of cheating. It shouldn't really matter if it's your dice or your opponent's, both players have a responsibility to enforce the basic rules.

You're missing the whole point.

Buhallin and others such as myself aren't saying we'd accuse someone else of cheating. We're saying we'd feel like we were cheating if we noticed something like this and didn't say anything.

...and didn't interpret it to mean ya'll enforced it solely on yourselves, but on the whole.

I do my best to recall what I've read by the 60th post in a topic. It's very clear what your respective points are. I disagree, but appreciate the feedback.

Here is another example I wonder.

This had happened with friendly games.

My opponent attacks me with wedge.

Because I don't fight against him or user him often, I've rolled my normal defense dice, and not doing it on purpose,but just because most times that is what I roll.

So wedge attacks me and I roll 3 dice for a tie fighter. Since I just rolled 3 dice for 2 other attacks, it could just simply happen (this hasn't happened in awhile, as we are a lot more experience)

My opponent also forgot, probably because normally we roll what we normally roll, but then after the fact he would notice, and I of coarse feel bad.

Now is it my responsibility to know or remember, or should my opponent tell me how many evade dice I should have?

In some cases we would be tired,and not just realized it.

Or

In the case we are discussing

If we are playing, it is not my responsibility to remember what upgrades my opponent has, so if I attack Howlrunner and he rolls 3 dice because he forgot about SD, chances are I probably forgot as well.

Not making excuses at all, but I can see this happening

I've made some bad mistakes where I've forgot to use an ability until after the fact, just because I forgot, to bad so sad.

I guess the main thing is, you can't hold someone hand, but I just want to make sure rules such as when to measure, and if you declare something such as a barrel roll, then that had to be done.

Now is it my responsibility to know or remember, or should my opponent tell me how many evade dice I should have?

I'll typically mention something about 3v2 or 3v3 or what ever, and often phrase it more as a question. That way we both pause and look at how many dice we should be rolling.

The bad part is when I'm attacking with Wedge and the other guy rolls 1 or 2 evades. Does he re-roll and maybe get none, or worse get all evades... If he rolls 3 blanks or 3 evades then that extra die didn't really matter.

If we are playing, it is not my responsibility to remember what upgrades my opponent has, so if I attack Howlrunner and he rolls 3 dice because he forgot about SD, chances are I probably forgot as well.

Most often yes, if he didn't notice it's likely you didn't notice either.

The issue here really is that if I do notice and don't say anything I feel like I've cheated.

Here is another example I wonder.

This had happened with friendly games.

[... Wedge ...], but then after the fact he would notice, and I of coarse feel bad.

Now is it my responsibility to know or remember, or should my opponent tell me how many evade dice I should have?

In some cases we would be tired,and not just realized it.

Or [... Howlrunner ...]

I've made some bad mistakes where I've forgot to use an ability until after the fact, just because I forgot, to bad so sad.

I guess the main thing is, you can't hold someone hand, but I just want to make sure rules such as when to measure, and if you declare something such as a barrel roll, then that had to be done.

In a case where both players forget, too bad. If it's to your disadvantage well tough luck, next time you'll remember.

I don't know how many times I've forgotten to use Howlrunner's re-roll... But once my opponent has thrown his defense dice, it's too late.

That being said, if I notice you forget your SD, or your range bonus for attack/defense, I'll remind you.

And if someone were to systematically "forget" Wedge's ability when rolling for defense, I'd remind him. Every time.

I would also think he's a big fat stupid jerk.

When it comes to attacking or defending, I typically call out how many attack dice vs how many defense dice. It's more confirmation on my part, but also gives my opponent a chance to confirm before rolls are made. There have been times where my opponent forgot he received bonus dice for Range, but by confirming the dice before rolling the issue was negated.

Ya, that is the best way.

I always try to count out loud.

Range 2, Biggs gets 2, plus asteroid, so 3 dice

That way we both know why and how I'm getting extra dice.

I remember one game though I think my Opponentwas annoyed because when he would finally get to wedge, id roll 3 dice, and of coarse I'd 3 evades, and then he would remind me after I rolled the 3 dice.

Then I said well it was 100% evade so would that matter.

In the end I rerolled and get 1 evade.

Then I'd feel annoyed at myself for forgetting and also because my opponent didn't say anything until after I had the dice on the table.

Both plays should just count or loud. I always now say the amount of attack dice and Def dice to avoid this from happening

I bring it up not as an example of something a TO should be enforcing, but as something that I as a player do. I don't try and enforce it against my opponent, because it's no more enforceable by me than the TO (if only I were willing to follow Magic's lead and use their patented brain scan technology). But I enforce it for the one person I can guarantee intent for - me. If you forget your Stealth Device and I see it, I'll tell you. If you roll before I tell you, I'll tell you and we'll add the die in.

I can't enforce it on my opponent, so I don't expect it, but I live by it for me.

Quoting myself here. Apologies if I misspoke, but if you were more interested in a discussion and a little less eager to try and scream "GOTCHA!" you might have noticed that it was clarified already, and it might not have been such an issue.

The only reason I quoted those posts was for reference in where my misunderstanding came from, not a frame for some "Gotcha!" or to insinuate you misspoke. I enjoyed the discussion and found the differing viewpoints interesting. My eagerness, as you put it, was to understand the rationale. I'm not out to get anyone.

Sorry. A few people coming after me pretty hard at the moment, and dragging other issues into random threads. Makes me a bit touchy and unforgiving at times, especially if it was something I'd already explained.

Humble apologies.

"Intensify forward firepower!"

Ya, that is the best way.

I always try to count out loud.

Range 2, Biggs gets 2, plus asteroid, so 3 dice

That way we both know why and how I'm getting extra dice.

I remember one game though I think my Opponentwas annoyed because when he would finally get to wedge, id roll 3 dice, and of coarse I'd 3 evades, and then he would remind me after I rolled the 3 dice.

Then I said well it was 100% evade so would that matter.

In the end I rerolled and get 1 evade.

Then I'd feel annoyed at myself for forgetting and also because my opponent didn't say anything until after I had the dice on the table.

Both plays should just count or loud. I always now say the amount of attack dice and Def dice to avoid this from happening

In the case of playing against Wedge, I think it's up to your opponent to remind you that you're rolling one die less than normal before you roll. It's his pilot's special ability after all. When I started playing I tended to look at the ship bases for dice numbers and forgot the pilot abilities. Now, I tend to look at the pilot card before rolling dice and check if there's an ability that's going to come into play.

You are expected to know your pilots and their abilities and upgrades, but I wouldn't expect you to have to keep track of your opponent's as well. To many new players, the pilots names are fairly meaningless until they're more familiar with the game and it's components. I still read through these forums and sometimes have to check the cards to remind myself of certain pilot abilities so I know what the various posters are discussing. It's all part of the learning curve.

As for your tournament predicament, I would suggest read the rulebook thoroughly, then read the tournament rules thoroughly. Then read them both again. You can't be too prepared. Every player in a tournament is expected to know the rules of the game. If they choose to do something outside of those rules, you have every justification to pull them up on it and advise the TO.

Good luck

To the question of notifying the other player of his stealth device. I would, and have, even in a tournament. It's what the rules say should happen (the extra die, I mean. ) to me, it's an issue of fair play and integrity. That's more important than who wins, isn't it? Besides I lose more than I win, so it's not a huge deal to me. I Do think that the rules need to be adhered to in a tourney setting though. They way everyone knows what to expect.