I see a lot of people in here going on about Y-Wings vs. Phantoms, and hard counters and all that jazz. Personally, I'm looking forward to killing them with Phantoms. Interceptors do great things against them, but now I can put Outmaneuver on Echo and almost assure that I'm going to be out of the Y's arc (because turret Y players rarely care where they're facing their forward arc, they just cruise around the field looking for easy hits). So possible range-1 with 5 attack dice against a ship that can't evade any of it? With a target lock, or maybe focus token, or whatever other goodies i can render with a system upgrade or crew member?

Yes please. I like my Y-wings with soy sauce.

I should also add that your chance of getting a critical hit on a Y-wing at range 1 is quite good under these circumstances.

Can I just point everyone to an article I've written on the Phantom based on all the juicy stuff FFG have just released?

http://teamcovenant.com/tuskenraider/2014/05/05/it-is-far-harder-to-kill-a-phantom-1/

Thank you.

The sidesteps could also be done with the templates in the other direction, ie. curved inwards not outwards

Can I just point everyone to an article I've written on the Phantom based on all the juicy stuff FFG have just released?

http://teamcovenant.com/tuskenraider/2014/05/05/it-is-far-harder-to-kill-a-phantom-1/

Thank you.

Very very good article. Good pictures like that are absolutely vital for visualizing ships like this.

Man I really just cannot wait to get my hands on these ships! I want to try out all the things! I was really looking forward to Whisper, but now that I see what Echo can do I just don't know which one I'd pick.

I see a lot of people in here going on about Y-Wings vs. Phantoms, and hard counters and all that jazz. Personally, I'm looking forward to killing them with Phantoms. Interceptors do great things against them, but now I can put Outmaneuver on Echo and almost assure that I'm going to be out of the Y's arc (because turret Y players rarely care where they're facing their forward arc, they just cruise around the field looking for easy hits). So possible range-1 with 5 attack dice against a ship that can't evade any of it? With a target lock, or maybe focus token, or whatever other goodies i can render with a system upgrade or crew member?

Yes please. I like my Y-wings with soy sauce.

I should also add that your chance of getting a critical hit on a Y-wing at range 1 is quite good under these circumstances.

If we're comparing a ~25 point ship to a 35-40 point ship, I'd certainly hope the latter would have the advantage. But it's not about the ship, it's about the list - and while you're chasing around my Y-Wing trying to prevent an ion token, I'll be focusing your 4 HP, 40 point investment with everything else I've got. Anyone who thinks four evade dice makes a ship invincible has never seen an interceptor with Stealth Device get vaporized in a single attack.

Ugh... my Rebel squads are scared sh!tless of these things. I didn't expect their movement dials to be quite this good, let alone their movement options to be straight up -better- than the Defender in many cases. Yes, the Defender moves in straight lines just dandy and has those very useful white K-Turns, and it's gonna be a hard nut to crack, but the Phantom is going to be like trying to catch a fly with chopsticks: it's possible, but you almost have to do it before you know where it'll move in the first place.

All I can think of to move slowly, use ion cannons, and ABUSE Flechette Torpedoes. Homing MIssiles are also starting to look extremely attractive.

Can I just point everyone to an article I've written on the Phantom based on all the juicy stuff FFG have just released?

http://teamcovenant.com/tuskenraider/2014/05/05/it-is-far-harder-to-kill-a-phantom-1/

Thank you.

Very very good article. Good pictures like that are absolutely vital for visualizing ships like this.

Thanks! You have no idea how many photos I took to get that right!

Can I just point everyone to an article I've written on the Phantom based on all the juicy stuff FFG have just released?

http://teamcovenant.com/tuskenraider/2014/05/05/it-is-far-harder-to-kill-a-phantom-1/

Thank you.

The sidesteps could also be done with the templates in the other direction, ie. curved inwards not outwards

Eh? How so? Do you mean that B, for example, could start lower down on the ship base? If so, I thought that became apparent during the rest of the article with some of the maneuvers. If not, I'm happy to add a sentence or two.

If you mean something else, though, a picture may help.

Well, the rebels still have their options, it's not as if the Phantom is the invincible destroyer of worlds.

Biggs still works.

Tarn still gets a TL if he's shot at

Wes still strips focus or evade even if he doesn't hit

R3-A2 still shuts down ACD

Blount still can ion them without looking and assault missile the neighbours for splashing

I see a lot of people in here going on about Y-Wings vs. Phantoms, and hard counters and all that jazz. Personally, I'm looking forward to killing them with Phantoms. Interceptors do great things against them, but now I can put Outmaneuver on Echo and almost assure that I'm going to be out of the Y's arc (because turret Y players rarely care where they're facing their forward arc, they just cruise around the field looking for easy hits). So possible range-1 with 5 attack dice against a ship that can't evade any of it? With a target lock, or maybe focus token, or whatever other goodies i can render with a system upgrade or crew member?

Yes please. I like my Y-wings with soy sauce.

I should also add that your chance of getting a critical hit on a Y-wing at range 1 is quite good under these circumstances.

If we're comparing a ~25 point ship to a 35-40 point ship, I'd certainly hope the latter would have the advantage. But it's not about the ship, it's about the list - and while you're chasing around my Y-Wing trying to prevent an ion token, I'll be focusing your 4 HP, 40 point investment with everything else I've got. Anyone who thinks four evade dice makes a ship invincible has never seen an interceptor with Stealth Device get vaporized in a single attack.

But can you do it in 1.5 turns? Most people who fly Y-wings are expecting them to stick around much longer than that. Besides, their evasion is so bad as long as you're rolling decently you can save your actions for defensive purposes. As long as you have at least one more ship firing on it, the Y-wing isn't likely to survive like that. Personally, I think it's a lot harder to kill a high-evade, medium to low HP ship than a high HP, low-no evade ship. Anyway, at least that's the way it's been in my experiences. I mean heck, all you need is Winged Gundark thrown in their for 15 points. He's been amazing at closing out Y-wings and YT's in my games.

Man I really just cannot wait to get my hands on these ships! I want to try out all the things! I was really looking forward to Whisper, but now that I see what Echo can do I just don't know which one I'd pick.

So why pick? Tag-team!

Can I do what, kill a Phantom in 1.5 turns? It's pure luck of the draw. Half the time yes, I'm pretty sure I can obliterate a 4 HP ship in two turns or less, even with four evade dice. The Phantom is a ship with a high skill cap, but it's still very much a risk/reward proposition. Any time you field one, you're betting that you can fly it well enough to either keep it out of my arcs, or keep it cloaked, shooting, and successfully rolling evades all at the same time. The question is, are four red dice and that kind of mobility worth risking such an expensive, fragile ship? That's a question people are going to have to find out for themselves.

A quick Ghostbuster list, not very viable in the long run but a Phantom list should be worried when facing this.

You can't have the Ghostbusters without Star War's Winston Zeddmore, Grizz Frix.

I know we just got four new X-Wing pilots with the transport, but FFG... ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ plz gif Frix.

Not a fan of Echo conceptually, because with 6 different placement options, she'll be way more forgiving to fly. Kind of undermines the difficulty of piloting the ship which is sorta lame, IMO. She's powerful yes, but most crutches are.

Echo's ability isn't a crutch. She's going to require practice, forethought, and attention to detail to build and fly well--probably more than any ship in the game, and I mean that quite literally.

For instance: the increased number of decloaking options (five, not six) makes her a more complex and more difficult piece to fly, rather than an easier one: a generic Phantom keeps its orientation when it decloaks, but Echo is required to rotate 45 degrees.

Six (not five):

1) Bank left

2) Bank right

3) Barrel roll left and forward

4) Barrel roll left and backward

5) Barrel roll right and forward

6) Barrel roll right and backward

A 45 degree change is not a downside--especially since there are 2 different 45 degree changes to choose from. A regular phantom gets to keep it's same heading, sure, but it also MUST keep it's same heading, even when that isn't a benefit. With a regular phantom, a certain decloack shift might be blocked by an asteroid, which means 1/3rd of your options aren't options. The boost directly forward is easy to block as well. It'll be pretty common to see the phantom with only one real option which totally hamstrings its value.

With Echo, an asteroid might block one, and a ship might block another, but that'll leave 4 more locations to move. Blocking forward progress requires 2 ships and each asteroid blocks 1/6th of his options. That's pretty **** forgiving. Being able to change your facing by up to 135 degrees without a red maneuver is also pretty **** forgiving--especially since red maneuvers mean no re-cloak.

For instance: her middling pilot skill either begs for Veteran Instincts, in which case you still risk taking fire from Soontir, Han, and Wedge and lock yourself out of all the other tasty EPTs out there, or requires you to very carefully manage your cloak.

How does this make Echo harder to use than any other ship? The lower skill phantoms have this same problem but worse. Every ship in the game is concerned about those 3 pilots. His middling pilot skill means he gets to react to the majority of ships on the field and choose which one of six areas he needs to go to line up his chosen maneuver.

For instance: the choice of system upgrades makes a huge difference in the way she flies. Advanced Sensors gives you an extra set of options, meaning additional complexity. Enhanced Scopes will be an option once Rebel Aces comes out, trading information for certainty. Sensor Jammers are a defensive gambit. Fire Control means you have to consistently fire on the same target round after round, which can be tough with that 45-degree swing.

Those are criticisms of those upgrades, they have nothing at all to do with Echo.

Echo is largely wasted against higher PS ships as he can't decloak to react, but again, other phantoms have that same issue--just against more pilots.

Echo is largely wasted against higher PS ships as he can't decloak to react, but again, other phantoms have that same issue--just against more pilots.

Echo with VI is PS8. That's above most other pilots in the game and will at least give you simultaneous fire against a handful of others (RG with VI). If you get initiative you're cloaked again when they fire.

Predictability will be key to success of this ship. You'll have to stay out of multiple firing arcs per turn otherwise you'll never survive (more hit dice than there are evades). All this fancy flying, which is awesome, implies unpredictability, but is it? You as the phantom pilot will be trying to achieve another shot. Not shooting every round will inhibit 40% of your force from employing fire and that's no victory strategy. So as a defender, I just need to try to predict where the phantom will most likely go and either try to get at least one ship pointed in that direction, or block that direction to force him into another. If it's unfavorable, the phantom pilot will be forced to not shoot that round, essentially getting a win for the opponent that round. The more rounds you have guys out of the right, the better you can fractionize the force and whittle him down until it's clean up time.

Don't get me wrong, I am extremely excited to get my phantoms and fly them all over the board to test my skillz (with a 'z'). I'm just conjecturing on how I would defend against a phantom were I to fly against one with a traditional list. I would try to get in the way of his predicted maneuver (maybe even using a bait ship for that), causing him to do something unconsidered or undesired. After that mistakes start rolling in and you can start cashing in on them.

Four attack dice - very scary. Four defense dice - very scary for the owner. FFG is attempting to shift the meta from masses of boring low skill pilots to fewer, named pilots. And I like that. However, ~40 pts is such an investment in a list, for 4 hps of survivability that it's going to make for some interesting playing.

If I were to field one, my first priority, protect my investment and don't get exposed. Never sacrifice getting one attack from my phantom that would provoke more than one attack against it. Even then, I would consider maneuvering out of the way if they would have a range one shot.

I liked all the cool pictures showing how maneuverable that is. So many of those highlighted that it can essentially return to where it started from oriented a different direction. That's important to keep in mind to defend against, just need to keep your guns pointed at the exact same spot.

Question - read conjecture about two barrel rolling through asteroids etc. what about other ships? Would that restrict you from moving that direction or could you move as far as you can on that line followed by your move. That is crucial because you may not their final 'decloak' position, you can try to block the most logical avenue. Echo would be a whole other best entirely there of course.

Cool ship, looking forward to flying it, not sure if it's the messiah that it's made out to be, seems pretty balanced with lots of the other ships with its drawbacks and point costs. But that's a good thing, we're looking to avoid power creep, no?

All this talk about the Phantom, and all I can think about is how much I want an astromech/modification/title that gives my Y-Wings access to bombs. ICT + Proton Bomb? Yes please.

Totally. Beware turning back to where you started...

Echo is largely wasted against higher PS ships as he can't decloak to react, but again, other phantoms have that same issue--just against more pilots.

Echo with VI is PS8. That's above most other pilots in the game and will at least give you simultaneous fire against a handful of others (RG with VI). If you get initiative you're cloaked again when they fire.

I feel like you read only the last sentence of the my post. I understand that VI ups his PS by 2. I was responding to the post (which I quoted) that said Echo's middling pilot level makes him harder to use than any other ship in the game .

The downside of phantoms as swimmingordy (among others) point out, is disruption. If you block their movements, you limit their options. Then they are like any other ship--except more fragile than pretty much any other. But with so many movement options it's hard to disrupt his plans. One of his 6 decloak options will surely present a target, and very likely at a favorable range and/or out of their arc. And by being able to adjust his facing BEFORE his maneuver, he's considerably more forgiving of a bad guess than his linear counterparts. He's hard to plan for and nearly impossible to block. He's so clutch he's a crutch, IMO.

I think neigh impossible to block, but easier to funnel than you may think. Of echo's six options if you have guys in front and on one side those six options just became two. And if I know he's going somewhere as a defender, I'll just put one of my ships pointed in that direction.

I'll have to fly with them more (I have yet to okay test ships prior to release), but I would probably just be a well distanced flanker. 4 attack dice is awesome no matter the range and I'll take 5 evade of over four any day.

I think neigh impossible to block, but easier to funnel than you may think. Of echo's six options if you have guys in front and on one side those six options just became two.

You'd better bring some big guys then. . Or a lot.

You don't need a lot. Even if he gets the barrel roll in there, he would have to eyeball his maneuver and then hope he doesn't bump. Even then, if he stays in range at that time and god forbid decloaks and doesn't recloak then he's at close range with the attacker with possibly an extra attack dice and maybe you're down to only two defense dice (PS dependent).

It will change the standard form flying, for sure. I would keep my high Ps pilot back a little and wait for him to get into arc. Best Ps Echo can get alone is 8.

My only argument is that Echo isn't the messiah. The phantom has balance. It is defendable. It certainly changes the meta, but it won't break it.

Total Phantom hate list: 2x gold squadron with ion turret, Biggs with R2-D2, Roark with Ion turret. Put biggs in the middle and move slowly forward, waiting for poor phantoms to come close

I can see him being down to 4 options pretty regularly (between blockers and asteroids), but that's still more than other phantoms have to start.