The FAQ used to say:

Q: Can two ships be considered touching if neither ship overlapped the other ship during this round?

A: No.

However, I don't see that in the current version of the FAQ. The FAQ clarifications on "Overlapping In-line Ships" and "Touching Multiple Ships" vaguely imply that touching is the state caused by resolving an overlap rather than simple physical contact, but I don't think there is anything in the rules or FAQ that actually states that any longer, is there?

Can I barrel roll into a "touch" now?

touching is still only a condition that is caused after 2 ships overlap. If you can barrel roll so close to a ship that you are basically touching, but not overlapping, as far as the game is concerned, you are not touching. You just barrel-rolled super close to another ship.

touching is still only a condition that is caused after 2 ships overlap. If you can barrel roll so close to a ship that you are basically touching, but not overlapping, as far as the game is concerned, you are not touching. You just barrel-rolled super close to another ship.

Can you provide a citation for that? Here's what the rulebook says on touching:

Ships whose bases are touching cannot declare each other as a target during the Combat phase while their bases remain touching. As soon as either of these ships moves away (so that the bases are no longer touching), this combat restriction no longer applies.

My basic situation is that I played in a tournament where it was ruled that you could barrel roll to create a "touch", and I'm having difficulty proving that wrong. The FAQ entry I used to point to is gone.

Can you provide a citation for that? Here's what the rulebook says on touching:

Ships whose bases are touching cannot declare each other as a target during the Combat phase while their bases remain touching. As soon as either of these ships moves away (so that the bases are no longer touching), this combat restriction no longer applies.

That is under the header "overlapping other ships". Without overlap, you never get to those two sentences.

This confusion, I feel, comes from the misuse of the word 'touch'

One cannot touch another ship, or be considered touching, unless you previously overlapped that ship.

So if you move next to them and your bases are so close they are touching, everyone thinks they have a situation. I think they should just call it overlapping.. then when you touch another ship it's not so much an issue..

One cannot touch another ship, or be considered touching, unless you previously overlapped that ship.

The problem is that the section of the FAQ we would always use to back up this interpretation has apparently been removed. The wording quoted by the OP no longer appears. It has been replaced with a couple of far more situational examples. So there is really nothing concrete to back up this claim anymore.

Even if the specific question was removed in the new FAQ, it was clear in the old one what was FFG's intended solution regarding touching and overlapping. So, unless new ruling is given, explicitly contradicting the previous one, we can assume that their intented ruling for this situation has not changed.

Because of that, I'd say "No touching if both ships didn't previously overlapped".

Relevant quotes provided below.

FAQ Touching and Overlapping

“A ship cannot perform a barrel roll if this would cause its base to overlap another ship or obstacle token, or if the maneuver template overlaps an obstacle token.” P1

touching Multiple ships

A ship can end its maneuver touching multiple ships. If a ship overlaps two ships, and its own base ends its maneuver touching both ships it has overlapped after moving backwards along the template, the overlapping ship is considered to be touching both overlapped ships, and both overlapped ships are touching it. P4

overlApping inline ships

Sometimes a round will end with two ships touching each other, parallel, and facing the same direction. If both ships are the same base size and execute the same unobstructed straight [ ] maneuver during the next round, the ships do not overlap each other and are not considered touching, even though they remain physically adjacent. P4

Rulebook

Overlapping Other Ships

There are a few situations that may arise where ships overlap other ships, and they are explained below.

Plastic Bases Overlapping

If a ship executes a maneuver that would cause the final position of its base to physically overlap another ship’s base (even partially), follow these steps:

1. From the opposite end of the template, move the active ship backward along the top of the template until it no longer overlaps another ship. While moving the ship, adjust it so that the template remains centered between both sets of guides on the ship’s base. Place the ship so that the bases of both ships are touching.

2. Skip this ship’s “Perform Action” step.

Ships whose bases are touching cannot declare each other as a target during the Combat phase while their bases remain touching. As soon as either of these ships moves away (so that the bases are no longer touching), this combat restriction no longer applies. P17

Touching is a result of an overlap. You cannot overlap with a barrel roll, therefore you cannot barrel roll into a touch situation so as to not be fired upon.

Even if the specific question was removed in the new FAQ, it was clear in the old one what was FFG's intended solution regarding touching and overlapping. So, unless new ruling is given, explicitly contradicting the previous one, we can assume that their intented ruling for this situation has not changed.

Because of that, I'd say "No touching if both ships didn't previously overlapped".

Then why was it removed? One could argue that the removal of that particular statement is an explicit contradiction of the previous ruling.

Yes, we know from previous FAQs that FFG intended it to be played that way. Unfortunately, without concrete evidence to point to in a current document, it would be hard to convince a) new players just coming to the game, and b) current players who wanted it to work the other way.

(For the record, we have always played it that you have to overlap during the current round to be considered touching. But now there is nothing but "assumed intent" to back that up.)

Even if the specific question was removed in the new FAQ, it was clear in the old one what was FFG's intended solution regarding touching and overlapping. So, unless new ruling is given, explicitly contradicting the previous one, we can assume that their intented ruling for this situation has not changed.

Because of that, I'd say "No touching if both ships didn't previously overlapped".

Then why was it removed? One could argue that the removal of that particular statement is an explicit contradiction of the previous ruling.

Well, it is my fault for using the word 'removed'... It may be not the best word to describe what was done, since it denotes an active intention of erasing or eliminating something.

Maybe the old answer was just 'unintentionally omitted' or 'forgotten to add' in the new FAQ.

Until further clarification we won't know for sure 100%, but there aren't any tangible clues which lead us to think that FFG changed its mind about this subject.

Touching is a result of overlapping. That is explained in the rulebook, p 17, and for a ship to be touching it has to have overlapped. Barrel rolls cannot overlap, therefore you cannot be in a touching situation as far as the rules are concerned, when executing a barrel roll.

All you can do is barrel roll and become "physically adjacent". ( the term used to described two previous overlapping ships that move the same maneuver the following round)

Everywhere you see the word touching it is used along with overlapping. That is consistent with all the rulings in the FAQ and the rulebook.

If you overlap a ship you are considered touching.

If you move right next to a ship, but don't overlap, you are physically adjacent.

Touching is a result of overlapping. That is explained in the rulebook, p 17, and for a ship to be touching it has to have overlapped. Barrel rolls cannot overlap, therefore you cannot be in a touching situation as far as the rules are concerned, when executing a barrel roll.

All you can do is barrel roll and become "physically adjacent". ( the term used to described two previous overlapping ships that move the same maneuver the following round)

Everywhere you see the word touching it is used along with overlapping. That is consistent with all the rulings in the FAQ and the rulebook.

If you overlap a ship you are considered touching.

If you move right next to a ship, but don't overlap, you are physically adjacent.

Playing devil's advocate here:

All of the (current) rules documents do give touching as the end state of resolving an overlap, but that does not inherently restrict overlap to be the only way to end up touching. For example, take these statements:

If you buy a Labrador it will shed. When your dog sheds, you need to vacuum more often.

These statements do not exclude other dog breeds shedding and causing you to vacuum more often.

The rules effectively now say:

When you overlap, you end up touching. When you end up touching, you cannot attack each other.

Playing devil's advocate here:

All of the (current) rules documents do give touching as the end state of resolving an overlap, but that does not inherently restrict overlap to be the only way to end up touching. For example, take these statements:

If you buy a Labrador it will shed. When your dog sheds, you need to vacuum more often.

These statements do not exclude other dog breeds shedding and causing you to vacuum more often.

The rules effectively now say:

When you overlap, you end up touching. When you end up touching, you cannot attack each other.

If you can find an instance of touching that does not involve an overlap I'll come to your house and vacuum up after whatever dog you have.

Okay, folks, moments ago I received an answer from Frank Brooks on this (my original text is in yellow):

In response to your questions:

Rule Question:
I have noticed that the following quote has been removed from the FAQ:

Q: Can two ships be considered touching if
neither ship overlapped the other ship
during this round?
A: No.

Does this mean that two ships that have NOT overlapped during the current round COULD be considered to be touching?

This would affect some issues which are not covered in the current FAQ, such as:

1: An Imperial Shuttle which was overlapped and touching in one round performing a Stationary maneuver in the next.

If a ship is touching at least 1 other ship and executes a 0 maneuver, it still counts as touching any of those ships. This was in opposition of the quoted question which is part of the reason it was removed.

2: A ship barrel rolling/boosting in such a way that it does not overlap (which would be illegal) but is in base contact with another ship.

3: A maneuver which does not overlap another ship but brings it into base contact.

The only way two ships can become touching is if one ship overlaps another ship when executing a maneuver. The only exception is with a 0 maneuver since this does not cause a ship to actually overlap a ship it was previously touching. A ship cannot becoming touching from a boost or barrel roll since it would have to overlap. Similarly, a maneuver would only cause you to become touching if it overlapped.

In essence, a ship can only either overlap and therefore become touching or be not overlapping and therefore not touching. The stationary maneuver muddles this slightly.

Your intent was clear with the previous FAQ entry, but its removal has caused some discussion about whether this ruling is still in force.

Thanks!

This concept will be readdressed in the next FAQ.

Thanks for playing!

Frank Brooks

Associate Creative Content Developer

Fantasy Flight Games

Sergovan as usual nailed it with the proper rulebook quotes. But now we know that that particular clause was intentionally removed to address the Shuttle 0 move situation. Interesting.

This concept will be readdressed in the next FAQ.

Good.

Sergovan as usual nailed it with the proper rulebook quotes. But now we know that that particular clause was intentionally removed to address the Shuttle 0 move situation. Interesting.

Glad to see that they're updating the wording to address this. Unfortunate that they forgot to include that update in the FAQ.

Hm. So "touching" can span turns now. Not too hard to remember, but still a wider time window.

Hm. So "touching" can span turns now. Not too hard to remember, but still a wider time window.

Apparently only with the Shuttle 0 maneuver, and I can think of one other rare situation, which actually happened to me in a game once. It too involved the shuttle, but could theoretically happen with any ship. I'll try to get some pictures to see what you think because it's a little hard to explain without visuals. I'll probably start a new thread so as not to hijack this one further.

EDIT: Never mind, I just realized the case I was thinking about could probably never happen over 2 different rounds. Nothing to see here, move along...

Hm. So "touching" can span turns now. Not too hard to remember, but still a wider time window.

I like the change, it fits better with the rules phrasing that it lasts until they move to a no longer touching position. The double shuttles doing a 0-speed intuitively never moved away from touching each other. I know the rule book wording is rarely very tight, but I like it when rules work the way the vague wording intuitively implies :-)