And because they should be asking TOs to take that extra step, they should be providing some prizing for TOs to encourage them to do so.

Absolutely, just so long as they abstain from playing while serving in an official capacity.

I really don't see any problem with having a similar situation in X-Wing, if you're too lazy to take the judge class and test then you shouldn't be running FFG-sanctioned events.

I agree and disagree with this. In the long run, I think it would be fantastic to have certified judges for X-Wing events. However currently I think that that would do more harm then good. Some stores might not bother since X-Wing isn't a big game currently/yet so they would be hesitant to put the time and effort into getting certified. This would then mean that the store couldn't run the certified events and would actually push tournament and player growth backwards.

Sure it would be great to have it implemented in the future and could be a gradual thing (ie you need to have a certified judge to be able to apply to hold the Regionals event etc.), but going whole hog right now would probably be a disaster.

And yet FFG has taken the step that you are suppose to take only after you have the judges program, which is mandating dedicated TOs.

They put the cart in front of the horse

And because they should be asking TOs to take that extra step, they should be providing some prizing for TOs to encourage them to do so.

Absolutely, just so long as they abstain from playing while serving in an official capacity.

I agree.

But if FFG is not going to provide a judge program or incentives, then they should remove the dedicated TO mandate as all it does is hurt the competency of their events TOs by pushing those that would do it best away. It's great to see some players so willing to TO out of the goodness of their heart, but the reality is it's a lot of thankless work, that most importantly will prevent you from getting to play in certain events. They expect players to drive 5 hours to attend a Regional, you can't expect them to do so to TO .

No, I think that "...and what they have done to gaming over the last 20 years can die in a fire and I'll dance on the ashes" makes you ignorant (and willfully so), not to mention hyperbolic and needlessly polarizing. Your personal bias really has no bearing on a conversation about a company that has created a wildly popular and successful competitive scene.

Yes, they have created a wildly popular and competitive scene.

They did it on the back of addictive leverage and behavior. My FLGS way back when had to ban people from writing checks for CCGs - nothing else, just CCGs. Why do you suppose that was? They created an environment that caused companies to abandon perfectly good game lines chasing mythical monies, and die in the process. They took over one of the foundational companies in all of gaming, and destroyed it. They pushed a "Our game to rule them all" that very nearly destroyed the entire RPG industry.

I don't give a flying fig what you, of all people, think of my opinions. Magic has a successful play environment, certainly - one which has done nothing but poison gaming as a whole for the last 20 years. So you take take your "Everyone should be like Magic and anyone who doesn't like it is biased" and shove it right up your own bias.

Does anyone seriously think FFG has, or will dedicate, the resources for this? Take a look at the credits for any of the expansions. They have 2, maybe 3 developers on them. How many bodies do you expect it takes to create and manage the sort of judge certification program you're suggesting? For a national system you're looking at an order of magnitude increase in manpower, JUST for the certification/complaint/oversight system.

And that's why I'm so very against this. Is it annoying when an event is run poorly? Certainly. But the vast majority go smoothly in the current environment. This is a completely unnecessary thing, driven by people who expect Magic-level competition. It's a massive and unnecessary cost.

And honestly, I don't WANT Magic-level competition. It'll do nothing but destroy this game, just as it's destroyed every other game that's chased after that level of play. Magic is very much like World of Warcraft - it got where it is through a unique combination of good ideas, good management, good timing, and an immense amount of luck. Efforts to duplicate either have failed, to the doom of those trying.

No, I think that "...and what they have done to gaming over the last 20 years can die in a fire and I'll dance on the ashes" makes you ignorant (and willfully so), not to mention hyperbolic and needlessly polarizing. Your personal bias really has no bearing on a conversation about a company that has created a wildly popular and successful competitive scene.

Yes, they have created a wildly popular and competitive scene.

They did it on the back of addictive leverage and behavior. My FLGS way back when had to ban people from writing checks for CCGs - nothing else, just CCGs. Why do you suppose that was? They created an environment that caused companies to abandon perfectly good game lines chasing mythical monies, and die in the process. They took over one of the foundational companies in all of gaming, and destroyed it. They pushed a "Our game to rule them all" that very nearly destroyed the entire RPG industry.

I don't give a flying fig what you, of all people, think of my opinions. Magic has a successful play environment, certainly - one which has done nothing but poison gaming as a whole for the last 20 years. So you take take your "Everyone should be like Magic and anyone who doesn't like it is biased" and shove it right up your own bias.

Oh, I'm sure you don't care what anybody thinks of your opinions at this point, considering how quick you are to throw your last shred of credibility right out the window. Half of what you say is a gross exaggeration, and the other half is pure spite. I would have preferred to have kept this civil, but you are just hell bent on saying any and every vitriolic thing you can conceive of about Wizards, and god only knows why. The sad thing is, you're not even denying it.

Oh, I'm sure you don't care what anybody thinks of your opinions at this point, considering how quick you are to throw your last shred of credibility right out the window. I would have preferred to have kept this civil, but you are just hell bent on saying any and every vitriolic thing you can conceive of about Wizards, and god only knows why.

LOL. Yes, my strongly negative opinion on Wizards of the Coast is going to destroy my credibility here.

Says... well, you, the thought-leader of approximately nothing around here.

It did for me. I respected your opinion before, but you are wildy off base and out of touch with reality here. I was tempted, in jest, to ask if WotC ran over your dog, but the conversation has become legitimately depressing at this point.

And honestly, I don't WANT Magic-level competition.

Yet, similar to Magic, X-Wing already has sanctioned Store Championships, Regional Championships, National Championships and World Championships. Despite you not wanting 'Magic-level competition' for X-Wing, it's already here. Once you create an opportunity for someone to be 'King of the World', that effect will ripple all the way down to casual play at the FLGS.

The new X-WIng Tournament Rules document differentiates three levels of play for X-WIng, very similar to Magic and further proof that X-Wing is embracing more competitive play.

My personal opinion is that any kind of judge program for X-Wing doesn't need to be as rigorous as Magic. X-Wing is an easier game than Magic. Privateer Press have a Press Ganger program, which might be more of a model that FFG could use to 'certify' interested players to become leaders in their gaming communities.

X-Wing is becoming more competitive, therefore it would be wise for FFG to introduce some kind of program to ensure that a FLGS has access to independent help running a tournament, should they require it.

On topic - 'FFGangers'/TOs/Judges/Store Owners who run tournaments should have some kind of reward for their dedication to helping grow the brand. One promo card in the Imdaar kit seems a little light-on to me, but at least something is better than nothing.

Yet, similar to Magic, X-Wing already has sanctioned Store Championships, Regional Championships, National Championships and World Championships. Despite you not wanting 'Magic-level competition' for X-Wing, it's already here. Once you create an opportunity for someone to be 'King of the World', that effect will ripple all the way down to casual play at the FLGS.

Nowhere near the same level. At the point when X-wing starts dropping prizes in the thousands of dollars, it might be in the same ball park.

My personal opinion is that any kind of judge program for X-Wing doesn't need to be as rigorous as Magic.

X-Wing is an easier game than Magic. Privateer Press have a Press Ganger program, which might be more of a model that FFG could use to 'certify' interested players to become leaders in their gaming communities.

certified judges? really? that's just hilarious...

I hope they get paid in hard currency when giving their certified rulings at events otherwise that seems just unfair

sure TOs and judges should know their stuff, which might create problems when you give out unconditional compensations, since it might entice the wrong people to host an event. The easiest solution is to let them play like any other, just with the minimal rule insurances that they can't influence their own games. Besides, volunteer work is and always has been an ungrateful work, and if you go into it in the hopes of getting fairly compensated instead of just supporting and further an idea/topic/institution you will end up frustrated anyhow.

But that are just my 2c, if I want certifications I go to work and even there we usually can avoid them with a bit of hands-on teaching, cooperation and common sense.

Nowhere near the same level. At the point when X-wing starts dropping prizes in the thousands of dollars, it might be in the same ball park.

Magic and X-Wing do operate on one similar level. They offer the prestige of winning the World Championship. What motivates you may not motivate others. I know plenty of people who would be more than happy winning that title and carrying it for a whole year. This reward will breed and feed the competitive players.

Unless the PG program has changed dramatically since I played Warmachine, Press Gangers aren't at all what you're suggesting.

Krynn is the kind of gamer who makes store owners not want to try new events. Sorry, but it's the truth.

I don't see how asking questions about following rules and making an event fair for everyone would make a store owner not want to have any new events.

Most of the time I'm pretty quiet

I know I'm not alone because I've seen lots of threads where people were unhappy with their To, so it's not like I'm a unique case. At least in my case I believe the TO really didn't know the tournament rules that well, unlike others I've read where they've originally changed the format to benefitthemselves, which is why I believe ffg now requires a second if one intends on to play

Everyone had fun last time, and the people there were great and as I mentioned I believe it was the first time the TO had done such a thing so I don't hold it against him.

What I'm wondering is by how much do the rules need to be enforced?

I've had some tell me I should contact ffg and report the store and To to them, but what does that do?

In his defense I don't think he knew and neither did I, but now I know.

I also mentioned that I had to travel and I'm not the only one. There were others from my area who went there and other places not so close by.

We don't live in a city of a million plus people that have a dozen different stores like in some places.

I'm actually usually pretty laid back and don't stir the pot to often so to hunterest may I suggest you to stfu. You know nothing about me, nor the circumstances.

That is why I ask the community here. Unlike hunter most are very helpful and give great advice. Ive seen some posts where some are very strict by the rules and I just wondered in my case if I'm being too anal. Should I speak up? Or just let it slide?

Others have suggested reporting, others say go along with it.

Doesn't hurt to ask the community what their thoughts are on the subject.

Competitive play is just that. Competitive,and when I play, I'm pretty competitive, which there is nothing wrong with that.

If it was a friendly local game with no cost or prizes, I could care less if they decide to play on 1x2 ft surface with a gnome standing in the middle

If I was a store owner, just getting started on these events, and I had a little mouth-breather salivating at the chance to 'turn me in' because I didn't do everything juuuuust the right way, I wouldn't even bother with the events. Either that, or I'd find a reason to bar said customer from the events for attempts to disrupt the event.

No point in having the additional stress of a toxic customer writing nastygrams to FFG about me or doing whatever he/she could to get me in trouble with a supplier. I was trying my best to cultivate a community and a fun event, while still learning the ropes of being a TO. Wouldn't be worth the effort at that point.

Anyone ever tell you your a forum flamer and rather a cock bite? Because it would be well earned, the mans said nothing to you except that if you cant contribute to the conversation positively then stuff it. Which I might add given your abuse is a warranted statement. I don't care how many times hes back checking and seeing people do it wrong, and wondering whats up, nothings wrong with that. NOTHING. If its an official tournament then its supposed to be run 100% by FFG rules, not some basment dwellers rewritten version. If theyre doing it wrong hes with in his rights to call them out, so again stuff it.

Sorry OP I don't know.

I find it disheartening how violently some have responded to the idea that FFG rewards those that put time into helping run fun events. In a perfect world, FFG would provide trained (and paid) judges. This of course would also mean a much higher entry fee for the players, because you would have to pay for his time, training, transportation, and lodging.

Maybe we don't want that. All players should have a copy of the FAQ and the rule book with them. Calmly state your interpretation to the TO. If the TO does not agree, politely ask for a justification of his/her ruling. At this point, it's time to go back to playing. Go back to having fun and continue to fly casual. If you feel like the TO made a bad call, e-mail FFG for a rules clarification and then FWD that response to the event's TO. Do so in a helpful "for the future" kind of way and not as an angry 5 year old that did not get his toy.

Finally, remember that the TOs are almost always players that would love to be sitting where you are at the moment, but know the event couldn't even happen without their help. Remember how annoying it can be to be constantly interrupted while performing a task you really want to be doing (in the case of the playing TO, playing HIS or HER own game). Finally, remember how good it feels to be recognized for your time and efforts and how horrible it is to feel brushed off and unappreciated.

I am going to take my own advice and I pledge this too. The next event I TO, not only will I do all these things, but at the end of the event I will ask the TO if he was paid or given any compensation for his efforts. If he says no, I will then buy him the expansion of his choosing as a personal thank you. I will then write FFG and inquire why they don't take better care of their volunteer help.

Fly Casual

Maybe we don't want that. All players should have a copy of the FAQ and the rule book with them. Calmly state your interpretation to the TO. If the TO does not agree, politely ask for a justification of his/her ruling. At this point, it's time to go back to playing. Go back to having fun and continue to fly casual. If you feel like the TO made a bad call, e-mail FFG for a rules clarification and then FWD that response to the event's TO. Do so in a helpful "for the future" kind of way and not as an angry 5 year old that did not get his toy.

All well and good, except when you are forced to drive 5 hours for the nearest Regional event.

When you want your players to make that effort you need to take some basic steps in vetting TOs. Because all of those reasonable steps still don't get you back what could be a ruined event via a blown call from a TO that doesn't know the rules. Because unfortunately you are going to get that with mandated dedicated TOs keeping experienced players from TOing since of course they want to play.

The kessel run have any other prizes or was it just ships?

It was just ships. If memory servers me right each kit had for LS one Millennium Falcon and two A-Wing's and DS got Slave-1 and two Tie Interceptors. Then top four each got a ship and the TO got the other two.

Correct; the Kessel Run "only" had the 6 ships. But that was plenty. Four ships went to the top four players. The other two were for the TO. That was very generous.

But some of us TOs didn't keep them; we gave them out to the players that paid to be in the tournament because we wanted to see a thriving game environment.

Maybe we don't want that. All players should have a copy of the FAQ and the rule book with them. Calmly state your interpretation to the TO. If the TO does not agree, politely ask for a justification of his/her ruling. At this point, it's time to go back to playing. Go back to having fun and continue to fly casual. If you feel like the TO made a bad call, e-mail FFG for a rules clarification and then FWD that response to the event's TO. Do so in a helpful "for the future" kind of way and not as an angry 5 year old that did not get his toy.

All well and good, except when you are forced to drive 5 hours for the nearest Regional event.

When you want your players to make that effort you need to take some basic steps in vetting TOs. Because all of those reasonable steps still don't get you back what could be a ruined event via a blown call from a TO that doesn't know the rules. Because unfortunately you are going to get that with mandated dedicated TOs keeping experienced players from TOing since of course they want to play.

TOs are human, and make mistakes. My suggestion, when asking for a ruling, is to calmly state your case and show evidence of your claim when you can. This should net you good results. In a combative situation, where your opponent is keeping you from civil debate, calmly ask your opponent (in front of the TO) for a few uninterrupted moments to demonstrate your case and promise to do the same for them. Follow through with this promise.

If you believe the TO is out to get you.... stop playing at that location.

Maybe we don't want that. All players should have a copy of the FAQ and the rule book with them. Calmly state your interpretation to the TO. If the TO does not agree, politely ask for a justification of his/her ruling. At this point, it's time to go back to playing. Go back to having fun and continue to fly casual. If you feel like the TO made a bad call, e-mail FFG for a rules clarification and then FWD that response to the event's TO. Do so in a helpful "for the future" kind of way and not as an angry 5 year old that did not get his toy.

All well and good, except when you are forced to drive 5 hours for the nearest Regional event.

When you want your players to make that effort you need to take some basic steps in vetting TOs. Because all of those reasonable steps still don't get you back what could be a ruined event via a blown call from a TO that doesn't know the rules. Because unfortunately you are going to get that with mandated dedicated TOs keeping experienced players from TOing since of course they want to play.

TOs are human, and make mistakes. My suggestion, when asking for a ruling, is to calmly state your case and show evidence of your claim when you can. This should net you good results. In a combative situation, where your opponent is keeping you from civil debate, calmly ask your opponent (in front of the TO) for a few uninterrupted moments to demonstrate your case and promise to do the same for them. Follow through with this promise.

If you believe the TO is out to get you.... stop playing at that location.

Those are all great tips in a normal event, but don't really apply in this circumstance.

For starters, there isn't any reason to assume the TO is out to get you, you just drove 5 hours to event to a store you've never been. Really unlikely to inspire a vendetta of any sort. Additionally, stop playing at that location doesn't work when the Regionals are a once a year event.

Secondly, all the tips on how to handle TOs in certain situations, while usually always helpful, doesn't help when you encounter a situation of a TO that does not know the rules of the game. It isn't them getting it wrong, it's them never having a chance of getting it right. We have no system to at all ensure that TOs are even familiar with the basic structure or rules of the game in place to TO these events that are suppose draw players from 4-6 hours away.

Other FFG games, in just the first weekend of events, have already had large issues with TOs getting basic tournament structure wrong. One announced the inappropriate number of rounds, to then be corrected by players referencing a picture of the kit insert provided by another venue owner, and another (at the FFG event center) put a time limit to elimination rounds when the rules plainly state otherwise.

When you want you players to travel that far for events you have to provide some assurance to the players that they can expect a TO that knows the game and event rules. Dedicated TOs are a step in that direction, but it only works if you have some sort of vetting process in place. Otherwise you would be better off with TO players and back-up judges because at least you'd be confident that the experience event players in a play group have a decent grasp on the rules. As opposed to the store employee that demo'd the game twice.

Dedicated TOs are a step in that direction, but it only works if you have some sort of vetting process in place.

IMO there should be some sort of dedicated judge system for tournaments. A TO doesn't have to be the judge, really. They can do the admin work but not make rule judgement.

I've never been involved in MtG tournaments much, but I know how they do it for discgolf ref's, the PDGA has a test that anyone can take and if you pass it you're qualified to be a ref for a dicsgolf tournament.

Honestly it wouldn't take a ton of work on FFG's part to set up something like that. Come up with 20 rule questions, and pick say 10 of them at random. Someone who wants to be a sanctioned judge can take the test and if they pass they would get a judges card with a #.

Dedicated TOs are a step in that direction, but it only works if you have some sort of vetting process in place.

IMO there should be some sort of dedicated judge system for tournaments. A TO doesn't have to be the judge, really. They can do the admin work but not make rule judgement.I've never been involved in MtG tournaments much, but I know how they do it for discgolf ref's, the PDGA has a test that anyone can take and if you pass it you're qualified to be a ref for a dicsgolf tournament.Honestly it wouldn't take a ton of work on FFG's part to set up something like that. Come up with 20 rule questions, and pick say 10 of them at random. Someone who wants to be a sanctioned judge can take the test and if they pass they would get a judges card with a #.

And it facilitates the Fly casual mentality versus building a competitive culture. That has ups and downs, but many prefer a less cuthroat competitive community. I'm not personally one, as I like the idea my opponents work to be the best players they can, but that's me.

And then they need someone to maintain the database, search it for exploits

That wouldn't be that hard. Maybe a hour a month if that much.

certify that TO's getting rewards are running events, not just stealing support, handle complaints, etc.

They wouldn't have to change what they're doing now.

And it facilitates the Fly casual mentality versus building a competitive culture.

I don't believe going to an event where you know the person doing the judging actually understands the rules is going to have any negative impact on Fly Casual, if anything it should help it. Because then I know the guy making the call isn't a guy who read the rules 5 minute before the event started.

Getting into an argument with the TO, because he clearly doesn't have a clue what the rules actually says is not going to help the Fly Casual feel.

I think you understimate how much work a system like this is.

FFG missed submitting RPG products for the ENnie Awards a couple years back because someone was sick. They're not that deep in terms of personnel. Or organization, probably.

Volunteer TOs are fine, and I can't imagine if one was routinely bad that the rest of the players wouldn't squeal and have one of their own step up to take over. And really, in a volunteer situation, if you don't like how they're doing it and aren't willing to do it yourself, STFU and sit down.

In the events I've played in the only rulings the TO was called on to make were 'too close to call' firing arcs, and that's only because he had a laser level with him. Other than that it was self-policed and there were zero issues.

And then they need someone to maintain the database, search it for exploits

That wouldn't be that hard. Maybe a hour a month if that much.

The problem with this estimate is that it's self-countering.

If there are enough problems to warrant a system like this, it's going to take well more than that to administer it. If there are so few complaints/problems that it only takes an hour a month, there's no need for the system.

I don't believe going to an event where you know the person doing the judging actually understands the rules is going to have any negative impact on Fly Casual, if anything it should help it. Because then I know the guy making the call isn't a guy who read the rules 5 minute before the event started.

Getting into an argument with the TO, because he clearly doesn't have a clue what the rules actually says is not going to help the Fly Casual feel.

I agree entirely that getting into an argument with the TO is going to hurt the "Fly casual" feel - but the blame for that does not lie with the TO. Ever. If the TO makes a mistake during a tournament, it does not matter - his word is law, and if you're arguing it at the table the fault is yours. You cringe, grit your teeth, accept the ruling, and play it out. After the tournament you sit down and have a chat over the issue, look up rulings, quote the FAQ, whatever. But the middle of an event is never, EVER the right place to have an argument with the TO.

It would be nice if TOs never made a mistake. Knowing that the TO is capable is certainly a good thing no matter what feel you're going for.

But if you require certification of TOs and disallow them from participating in their events, you're effectively creating a class of professional TOs. You're basically saying that the game is so serious, you can't trust people to administer it fairly if they're even the slightest bit involved in the event, and that mistakes in a ruling or how it's run have such dire consequences that they require a level of active, dedicated oversight. That most certainly goes against the "Fly casual" concept.

And honestly, for X-wing it's just silly. Nothing at stake in these events warrants it. Yes, people may drive a long time, but they certainly aren't doing it for the prizes and the high value of them. There isn't some progression structure where a bad call means you're cut out of playing at the higher level you (think you) deserve. Sure, it's annoying, but the only actual loss is to ego and bragging rights. And I can't think of anything less "Fly casual" than demanding FFG create a class of professional TO in order to ensure that your bragging rights can be fairly earned.

I think you understimate how much work a system like this is.

I think you overestimate it... So there.

I'm fairly sure I could set up something like this myself in a matter of a few hours. This isn't the kind of thing that needs a lot of maintenance. You could do it with email and a excel spread sheet honestly.

Half the stuff you mentioned they already have to do, so that's not going to increase the workload.

The only new thing they'd have to do, is come up with test questions, a way to have people take the test, and a way to track who's passed and who's failed.