Also complaining about not being compensated is just greedy whining. If the TO wants a reward for doing these then make it part of the agreement for doing that. Lots of preople "TO" games to support players without a hand out.

Last, the fact that you get personal, when people disagree with you, reveals that you are just not mature enought to be posting on the internet fourms.

Really? You lead into the thread with anyone who disagrees with you being a "greedy whiner" and then try and play some moral high ground about getting personal? Wow.

The idea of a non-employee TOing an event and not getting compensated by FFG or the store in some way sickens me. That's just taking advantage of a kind-hearted fan. Being a TO is WORK. FFG has and should continue to thank those that volunteer to do what is often a thankless job otherwise.

A To is on a volunteer bases. They do it for the love of the game,not to get free stuff, and if they are then Imo are probably not the best to run an event.

I wish we had the numbers here because I would love to organize and get tournaments in my area going. Id do it not for free stuff but to get others who love the game like me together and have fun

However with that said I would also want to play in the event, and with the current rules I would find another To, probably the store owner who doesn't play, and I'd go right by the rules

This was what I thought too.... Until I ran an event, and no one so much as thanked me. TO, see if you still feel this way after doing so.

This was what I thought too.... Until I ran an event, and no one so much as thanked me. TO, see if you still feel this way after doing so.

Honestly, even when they do thank you it's a ton of work. It's an entire day away from family, with no actual gaming resulting. I can't speak for every other TO, but I also pitched a TON of money to prizes. I bought ships, I printed unique maneuver cards, I took the prizes I got from tournaments I did play in and gave them away.

I actually did all that for the love of the game, because that's what I do. And even I think the "you should just do it for the love of the game and never expect any compensation" attitude is insulting.

Edit: Just as a general rule in life, presenting an attitude that someone else should do work for you without being compensated for it is never going to be a good thing to put forward.

I know a judge who frequently adjudicates Magic events that he participates in, and it always rankles. Wizards has a long standing rule of which this is a direct violation, and said judge has even caused me a match loss before. I don't think it's as extreme a circumstance as you believe it to be.

Wizards also has a much more structure organized play system, that incorporates so many more players, and actually has a Wizards run Judge program in place. Official events have to have a certified Judge at them. Those Judges are tested on their knowledge of the game.

This is not the case with X-wing or any FFG game. They do not have the structure, size, scope, or resources behind their OP program to make the comparison between them and Wizards.

Once you remove your experienced players from TOing by forcing them to chose between playing (aka the reason they are involved in the game) and TOing, you have no reason to assume the new TO will have any knowledge about the game they are now officiating.

This is a huge problem with FFGs Regional system as they disallow player TOs, but unlike Wizards do not have a system in place to vet those that are now going to TO events they expect players to drive 4-6 hours for,

I am in an awful situation where the store running my local regional is trying to get me to TO for them and I won't do it because I am a player first and can maybe do better than just some dice. This is a huge problem with X-wing and it needs to end by next season by going with sanctioned TOs that can earn the swag.

I know a judge who frequently adjudicates Magic events that he participates in, and it always rankles. Wizards has a long standing rule of which this is a direct violation, and said judge has even caused me a match loss before. I don't think it's as extreme a circumstance as you believe it to be.

Wizards also has a much more structure organized play system, that incorporates so many more players, and actually has a Wizards run Judge program in place. Official events have to have a certified Judge at them. Those Judges are tested on their knowledge of the game.

This is not the case with X-wing or any FFG game. They do not have the structure, size, scope, or resources behind their OP program to make the comparison between them and Wizards.

Once you remove your experienced players from TOing by forcing them to chose between playing (aka the reason they are involved in the game) and TOing, you have no reason to assume the new TO will have any knowledge about the game they are now officiating.

This is a huge problem with FFGs Regional system as they disallow player TOs, but unlike Wizards do not have a system in place to vet those that are now going to TO events they expect players to drive 4-6 hours for,

I am in an awful situation where the store running my local regional is trying to get me to TO for them and I won't do it because I am a player first and can maybe do better than just some dice. This is a huge problem with X-wing and it needs to end by next season by going with sanctioned TOs that can earn the swag.

Then place the store owner as the second TO and play. That's why they allow that.

Except that they don't. The regional is a Premiere event, which does not allow TO participation at all.

Magic is a unique beast, and has a competitive structure which few other games want or need. Trying to take lessons from WotC is exactly the wrong thing to do.

Magic has survived and prospered for 20 years. It is 'bigger' today than it ever has been. Any other gaming company should be looking at WOTC to see what they have done properly. Magic has extremely well written rules, along with a solid Judge program to support all levels of play from casual to Pro Tour.

FFG have recently defined three levels of play for X-Wing (Casual, Competitve and Premier). To me, that mirrors what WOTC have done with Magic's Tournament Rules and Infraction Procedure Guide (Regular, Competitive and Professional). Is that just a coincidence? You tell me.

You appear to use your blog to show where the X-Wing rules have not been well written. FFG should (and probably do) look at Magic to see how rules can be written better.

So which do you prefer: Consistently well written X-Wing rules that clearly build from the terminology and structure of other proven games (such as Magic) or not taking lessons from WOTC because it 'is exactly the wrong thing to do'?

It appears that FFG are experiencing very healthy growing pains and they're giving us the best OP program that they can currently support. An extra incentive for the TO would not go astray.

Also complaining about not being compensated is just greedy whining. If the TO wants a reward for doing these then make it part of the agreement for doing that. Lots of preople "TO" games to support players without a hand out.

Last, the fact that you get personal, when people disagree with you, reveals that you are just not mature enought to be posting on the internet fourms.

Really? You lead into the thread with anyone who disagrees with you being a "greedy whiner" and then try and play some moral high ground about getting personal? Wow.

The idea of a non-employee TOing an event and not getting compensated by FFG or the store in some way sickens me. That's just taking advantage of a kind-hearted fan. Being a TO is WORK. FFG has and should continue to thank those that volunteer to do what is often a thankless job otherwise.

A To is on a volunteer bases. They do it for the love of the game,not to get free stuff, and if they are then Imo are probably not the best to run an event.

I wish we had the numbers here because I would love to organize and get tournaments in my area going. Id do it not for free stuff but to get others who love the game like me together and have fun

However with that said I would also want to play in the event, and with the current rules I would find another To, probably the store owner who doesn't play, and I'd go right by the rules

This was what I thought too.... Until I ran an event, and no one so much as thanked me. TO, see if you still feel this way after doing so.

That's too bad, but people just take it for granted. "Hey this thing taking place, hell ya", and after is over they leave.

Kind of reminds me of someone hosting a party.

Everyone shows up, and at the end all leave, leaving their garbage behind. Lol

But I guess that is the role of the TO. I don't know what else to suggest.

I mean I don't think they should get free things.

I also think it would suck to organize but not be able to play. I mean if it wasn't for the TO then there wouldn't be any tournament.

I guess in some cases is a thankless job, but that shouldn't be the case, and I'm sure that's not always the case.

I guess one solution would be if the TO cannot take part, then ya, an incentive would be nice. Maybe an extra to prize. Since he can't participate and have a chance, and for the work.

But again it would be a shame if that was the main reason why they did it, too get things.

Or just let them play.I'm not sure how it works but when the kit comes in does it have the rules?

If not then maybe it should come with a little pamplet for X amount of players, to be handed out,so everyone knows the rules and therefore the To who is playing can't change them around, and everyone is up to date of the ffg ruling.

With the exception that do long as everyone agreed to it then exceptions can be made

I've got a few things to say on this topic and I am in a blogging mood. I think that my reputation as an X-wing player and a TO will speak for itself when I say this.

1.) This event is the second of its kind. The first event allowed for the TO to be compensated for his time by being awarded two sweet new fighters out of the left overs. What happened is different. The game was still squeaky new and ringers like myself dominated by placing or wining every event they went to. This meant that people who knew the rules and knew them well were NOT TOs. Stores ran the event because they couldn't get anyone reliable to run them. The extra ships ended up on Ebay for hundreds of dollars in some cases. This kind of goes against the idea of the game.

2.) During the Kessel Run experienced players that trolled all the stores in their area, won ALL the ships. THIS IS FACT! And I'm so guilty of this. I had a set of Wave two before most. HUGE advantage. Then we took all of those ships to one store where there was competition so we could get better. Now there are WAY more of these events this time around. This is good. Most stores are trying to be casual about this event where people who frequent these stores get the rewards. This should help keep ships circulating and help with the advantage.

4.) THIS IS NOT A STORE CHAMPIONSHIP OR A REGIONAL. According to the new FAQs the TO can play in this event as long as there is a second TO.

With these four things being stated this is what I am doing as a TO. I am working with another TO at a different store. We are going to team TO our events so that we can both play in as many of these events as possible that weekend. I am only going to one event where I will not be a TO. I've also agreed that if I am in the final match in any of these events I would switch places with the third place player and allow them to play in the Assault. Unless I am in a spot where I already have ships and am trying to get one that would go first. Shouldn't happen tho.

I'm encouraging ALL TOs for this event to follow my lead on this.

This is my two cents of course but I think it is a fair way to deal with the short comings for the TO.

So which do you prefer: Consistently well written X-Wing rules that clearly build from the terminology and structure of other proven games

Do I think the X-wing rules could, and should, be tighter? Yes.

But that doesn't mean the only way to pursue that is Magic. The detailed Magic rulebook is what, 200 pages long? And you've got people making serious living winning money at it, right?

I'll leave off the litany of gaming destruction that I lay at the feet of WotC and their success, but let's just say that just because they've surived for 20 years does not mean I think it's anything worth emulating. FFG should most assuredly not follow that as an example. WotC, Magic, and what they have done to gaming over the last 20 years can die in a fire and I'll dance on the ashes. It's not an environment anyone in gaming needs to try and recreate.

So which do you prefer: Consistently well written X-Wing rules that clearly build from the terminology and structure of other proven games

Do I think the X-wing rules could, and should, be tighter? Yes.

But that doesn't mean the only way to pursue that is Magic. The detailed Magic rulebook is what, 200 pages long? And you've got people making serious living winning money at it, right?

I'll leave off the litany of gaming destruction that I lay at the feet of WotC and their success, but let's just say that just because they've surived for 20 years does not mean I think it's anything worth emulating. FFG should most assuredly not follow that as an example. WotC, Magic, and what they have done to gaming over the last 20 years can die in a fire and I'll dance on the ashes. It's not an environment anyone in gaming needs to try and recreate.

Wow, I hope you people realize that these ships will all be for sale soon. So if do not get a prize, you can still buy one later.

Why all the crying about "what do I get"? Just enjoy the game and have fun. If you TO the event are you crying about not getting paid or rewarded? If you TO an event for an unappreciative shore, go somewhere else.

You people are starting to sound greedy.

You are missing the point.

FFG requires that this event be run per their tournament rules. Those rules require a tournament organizer / judge to run the event and specifically NOT participate.

If you volunteer your time to run an event you also waive your opportunity to participate in that tournament. And let's be honest, the people that are typically involved enough to run a tournament are the people that love to play the game.

In the past FFG has provided some special prizes specifically for the TO. This happened with the Kessel Run (which is the most similar past event to Imdaar Alpha) where I believe the TO got an A-Wing and an Interceptor. Other events have included custom range rulers, tokens, dice, etc. This time around they hadn't announced anything and that is very unfortunate if true.

Personally I have never been a TO however I feel very strongly that FFG needs to take care of those people and give good people some incentive to miss the fun of a tournament.

This is about taking care of the people who sacrifice having fun to make sure others have a great time. That's selfless not greed.

Galactik:

I totally agree with you, but the way the issue is being posted, sounds like people whinning about not getting freebees. When our group TOs games, people are looking to provide a forum for the players to play, and not a handout. Next event, hopefully someone else TO's, and so on. But thats not what is going on here. You can play anytime. Pleople here are "bitching" about not getting something for free rather than supporting the growth of the game and the gamers.

FFG does what they like and need to do, whithout everyone looking for a ffreebe. Hell with the figures coming out I was supprised a company would offer that an an award.

Next, most TOs are usually store owners and they should be TOing teh events, and not the store's customers.

It would be nice if store owners or an employee could run the events leaving the paying customers to participate but for many stores that's not possible or practical. Plus the players will frequently know the game better.

I'm not sure how tournaments are run in your neck of the woods but in over a dozen different tournaments I've been to for different games I can't think of a single one that was run by the LGS.

Now are some people looking for a handout? Probably, but I think the vast majority of the time it's deserved compensation/reward, whatever you want to call it given the TO generally has to miss the best part: playing.

I'm glad it sounds like the TO can play in this one. Problem solved.

Why is that? Magic basically made modern tabletop games a thing. Wizards rules heavy approach is, for games like magic, necessary. Without them, we almost definitely wouldn't have X-wing.

I've been a volunteer that has judged events at other tournaments and I did it because I got to meet local people who liked playing games as much as I did. I love to game. The hours were long, the sleep was minimal, the hotel rooms were crammed with 6 or more of us, and the memories will last me the rest of my life.

X-wing has brought a good portion of that back, the eagerness to drive hours to an event, to meet other players, to challenge myself and make a winning strategy and have fun even if I lose all my games (which has happened to me!).

I would like to TO an event but I don't have the free time like I used to. I'm still trying to work in a bi monthly game with co-workers on weekends and on alternate wednesdays when the local x-wing group meets on a day that isn't a conflict with me.

I don't have the free time like I used to but I wish I did for this game. I would T.O. if it meant having an event run.

If I didn't get compensated for it, so be it. I get my enjoyment from other means. But it is nice to be recognized. Even a little bit. And I think that is something that FFG should bear in mind as X-wing develops its tournament scene.

So which do you prefer: Consistently well written X-Wing rules that clearly build from the terminology and structure of other proven games

Do I think the X-wing rules could, and should, be tighter? Yes.

But that doesn't mean the only way to pursue that is Magic. The detailed Magic rulebook is what, 200 pages long? And you've got people making serious living winning money at it, right?

I'll leave off the litany of gaming destruction that I lay at the feet of WotC and their success, but let's just say that just because they've surived for 20 years does not mean I think it's anything worth emulating. FFG should most assuredly not follow that as an example. WotC, Magic, and what they have done to gaming over the last 20 years can die in a fire and I'll dance on the ashes. It's not an environment anyone in gaming needs to try and recreate.

I can't think of anything that would make a person sound like they have less experience with the topic at hand than this statement. Nobody is forcing Magic down the throats of X-Wing players, but to dismiss its obvious merits and successes (of which a comprehensive set of rules is one, even at 200 pages) out of hand simply because it's Magic is ludicrous. How can you make such a boldly unobjective statement and expect us to take your opinions seriously?

Wow, I hope you people realize that these ships will all be for sale soon. So if do not get a prize, you can still buy one later.

Why all the crying about "what do I get"? Just enjoy the game and have fun. If you TO the event are you crying about not getting paid or rewarded? If you TO an event for an unappreciative shore, go somewhere else.

You people are starting to sound greedy.

So if the wave 4 ships are going to be for sale soon then I would assume you, EmpireeErik, won't be attending any of the Imdaar Alpha events. Because why bother right. Why play a game you enjoy for prizes that you want when you can buy them soon enough.

My city was lucky enough to host 3 Imdaar Alpha pre-release events. I was able to to coordinate with each store to get them to host there event on a different day so there was no overlapping of events. I did not ask to be a TO at any of these events but was asked to be a TO at two of them and will end up TO'ing the third as well. I did not hesitate when asked to TO and said yes knowing I was not going to be able to play in them. If I sound greedy by asking if I'm going to get something by volunteering 12 - 15 hours of my time so that the players in my community have a good time, then yes I'm greedy. And I'll own it. I wasn't crying that I'm not getting anything I was simply asking if anyone knew if TO's were getting anything.

Thanks Galactic Funk and Buhallin for backing me up. And Tim is one of the most stand up TO's in the area hands down.

Wow, I hope you people realize that these ships will all be for sale soon. So if do not get a prize, you can still buy one later.

Why all the crying about "what do I get"? Just enjoy the game and have fun. If you TO the event are you crying about not getting paid or rewarded? If you TO an event for an unappreciative shore, go somewhere else.

You people are starting to sound greedy.

Seriously??

Most TOs are volunteers, who devote an entire day of their time to running an event so you can have fun at it. They're generally completely uncompensated, but a question over whether there's an extra card in the box for them is sounding greedy??

What a clueless twit.

Buhallin: you do not sound like you really understand about being a fair impartial judge. How you cannot see that being a TO and playing is a conflict of interest.

Also complaining about not being compensated is just greedy whining. If the TO wants a reward for doing these then make it part of the agreement for doing that. Lots of preople "TO" games to support players without a hand out.

Last, the fact that you get personal, when people disagree with you, reveals that you are just not mature enought to be posting on the internet fourms.

EmpireErik at no time did I say I WANT a reward, I simply asked if anyone knew if TO's got something. I have already committed to running events knowing I'm not getting anything for doing so. You must not be a TO for any game you play. Because if you were you would understand that when us TO's run events for players such as yourself that we don't get to play in them.

I feel sorry for the other players at the venues where you play. You must be a real pleasure to play against.

My city was lucky enough to host 3 Imdaar Alpha pre-release events. I was able to to coordinate with each store to get them to host there event on a different day so there was no overlapping of events. I did not ask to be a TO at any of these events but was asked to be a TO at two of them and will end up TO'ing the third as well. I did not hesitate when asked to TO and said yes knowing I was not going to be able to play in them. If I sound greedy by asking if I'm going to get something by volunteering 12 - 15 hours of my time so that the players in my community have a good time, then yes I'm greedy. And I'll own it. I wasn't crying that I'm not getting anything I was simply asking if anyone knew if TO's were getting anything.

As someone who will hopefully attend one or more of those events I thank you, and I'm not trying to butter you up (unless it is working, of course lol )

On topic personally I don't see any problem with playing TOs as long as they have someone else to rule in their games, and as long as you don't have both people playing against each other things should be fine, and if they do they should be the best equipped to resolve any issues on their own. Fortunately, FFG is doing a fairly good job of keeping up with FAQs (compared to say GW and 40k). The only issue I can see really needing a ruling is with the Wave 4 stuff at this point.

From someone who has done the TO thing quite a bit (Warhammer 40K though instead of X-Wing), I have found that most players are happy with the following regarding TO's. If the event is small (say less than 12 players) it is not terrible if the TO plays in the event if there are an odd number of players thus preventing anyone from having to have a bye. I would also make sure that there was a seasoned player on hand to provide any rulings that involved my games to make it fair for all involved. For anything over a dozen players or so, I would always just TO the event because rules queries, judgements and data entry would keep me busy.

I can't think of anything that would make a person sound like they have less experience with the topic at hand than this statement. Nobody is forcing Magic down the throats of X-Wing players, but to dismiss its obvious merits and successes (of which a comprehensive set of rules is one, even at 200 pages) out of hand simply because it's Magic is ludicrous. How can you make such a boldly unobjective statement and expect us to take your opinions seriously?

I do not dismiss its merits, nor its successes.

That does not mean that the way it achieved those merits or success is something that every game needs to emulate. Nor does it mean that there haven't been quite a few games left burning in the path of that success.

Magic has been an incredibly successful game. It has also created an environment that I don't care to see duplicated in the games I play. We don't need professional X-wing players, or a rotation system that forces players to keep pumping money into the game to stay competitive, or a certification course for judges.

"Success" and "Something to be emulated" are not necessarily the same thing. Not every game - hell, not ANY game - has to aim to duplicate Magic. Not every game has to take the same approach that Magic did. And, honestly, given the number of dead companies out there who have gotten where they are by trying to imitate Magic, I think it's an approach that's littered with risk.

If you think recognizing what's happened to the industry OUTSIDE WotC in the last 20 years makes me ignorant, then perhaps that word doesn't mean what you think it means.

No, I think that "...and what they have done to gaming over the last 20 years can die in a fire and I'll dance on the ashes" makes you ignorant (and willfully so), not to mention hyperbolic and needlessly polarizing. Your personal bias really has no bearing on a conversation about a company that has created a wildly popular and successful competitive scene.

Why are you so intent on throwing the baby out with the bathwater? Nobody here is advocating that FFG become a Wizards clone, only that there might be something worthwhile to be gleaned from 20 years of accumulated knowledge, especially where competition is concerned. If the X-Wing rules were anywhere near as precise as Magic's, you wouldn't have a blog. And you're going to have a very hard time convincing me that trained judges and better tournament organization are a bad thing, no matter which way you spin it. Buhallin, you're an intelligent person and I usually respect your opinion, but I feel like you're letting some kind of grudge cloud your judgment here. Please, if you're going to criticize Wizards at least offer something substantive about the topic at hand.

We don't need professional X-wing players, or a rotation system that forces players to keep pumping money into the game to stay competitive, or a certification course for judges.

Actually this is something that we do need, if FFG wants to continue to mandate dedicated TOs/Judges for it's events.

This is the general theme of FFGs OP for all it's games. They want to emulate the structure of the big boy competitive circuits, while keeping the money out of it. Great that's awesome! But they do everything half way.

They try to offer an organized tier'd event system, but create a free for all with the Store Championships, Any venue that applied got one, and none were ran with any consistency. Byes were sold on EBay etc.

They mandate dedicated TOs, which largely excludes experienced players from TOing, but have no system in place to vet TOs for their "Premiere" events. The result is you will see events run by TOs that couldn't tell you rule one for the respective game. Even the events held at the FFG center have already had this issue.

They introduce a Tier of Tournament clause, talking about event consistency, but never actually give players the event guidelines so they know what to expect.

FFG clearly wants their OP program to be more like what you see in Magic, but they are thinking big and failing to execute on the little things. They need to understand there are things that Magic does that they don't and won't have the resources. player base, or target audience to also do. They need to look at other ways to improve their OP system rather then just emulate a different company, one that they can't live up to in some regards and honestly don't ever want to in others.

We don't need professional X-wing players, or a rotation system that forces players to keep pumping money into the game to stay competitive, or a certification course for judges.

Except those first two things aren't relevant. Nobody is asking for professional X-Wing tournaments, or a rotation system that wouldn't make any sense outside the context of a CCG with a regular cycle of expansions. What we want to see is MTG-level rule clarity, where every possible rule question is clearly and indisputably answered in the rules and you can never encounter a situation where you have to do more than go read the rulebook and see how to play it (and if you do, expect that to be fixed soon).

The only one of your complaints that has anything to do with MTG influence in X-Wing is judge certification, and you're absolutely wrong about that. Judge certification would be great for X-Wing because it would ensure that rulings are consistent and the people making them have a good understanding of the game. I really don't see any problem with having a similar situation in X-Wing, if you're too lazy to take the judge class and test then you shouldn't be running FFG-sanctioned events.

I really don't see any problem with having a similar situation in X-Wing, if you're too lazy to take the judge class and test then you shouldn't be running FFG-sanctioned events.

I agree and disagree with this. In the long run, I think it would be fantastic to have certified judges for X-Wing events. However currently I think that that would do more harm then good. Some stores might not bother since X-Wing isn't a big game currently/yet so they would be hesitant to put the time and effort into getting certified. This would then mean that the store couldn't run the certified events and would actually push tournament and player growth backwards.

Sure it would be great to have it implemented in the future and could be a gradual thing (ie you need to have a certified judge to be able to apply to hold the Regionals event etc.), but going whole hog right now would probably be a disaster.

Sure it would be great to have it implemented in the future and could be a gradual thing (ie you need to have a certified judge to be able to apply to hold the Regionals event etc.), but going whole hog right now would probably be a disaster.

This kind of thing already exists in MTG. There are levels of judges, and the higher-tier events require higher-level judges. Your local store's friday night magic tournaments can be run by the guy who spent an afternoon getting the basic certification, while pro tour events have much stricter judging requirements. It would be easy to do something similar in X-Wing: random store events don't require judges (even if they have FFG prize support), store championships require basic certification to ensure that the TO actually understands how the game works, and regionals and higher events require demonstrating complete understanding of the rules and FAQs.

We don't need professional X-wing players, or a rotation system that forces players to keep pumping money into the game to stay competitive, or a certification course for judges.

Except those first two things aren't relevant. Nobody is asking for professional X-Wing tournaments, or a rotation system that wouldn't make any sense outside the context of a CCG with a regular cycle of expansions. What we want to see is MTG-level rule clarity, where every possible rule question is clearly and indisputably answered in the rules and you can never encounter a situation where you have to do more than go read the rulebook and see how to play it (and if you do, expect that to be fixed soon).

The only one of your complaints that has anything to do with MTG influence in X-Wing is judge certification, and you're absolutely wrong about that. Judge certification would be great for X-Wing because it would ensure that rulings are consistent and the people making them have a good understanding of the game. I really don't see any problem with having a similar situation in X-Wing, if you're too lazy to take the judge class and test then you shouldn't be running FFG-sanctioned events.

And because they should be asking TOs to take that extra step, they should be providing some prizing for TOs to encourage them to do so.