I emailed FFG and was told there is an extra extended art promo card for the TO. Last I checked it isn't listed in the kit contents, but there should be an extra card.

ScottieATF... I am not a PG, I am a TO. Applied to be a PG so I could get some things possibly but would have tossed most of it back into prize support for events. I have not heard back.

But thanks for pointing that out. Monpoc (same company) had something for PG or TO included with their kit.

Wow, I hope you people realize that these ships will all be for sale soon. So if do not get a prize, you can still buy one later.

Why all the crying about "what do I get"? Just enjoy the game and have fun. If you TO the event are you crying about not getting paid or rewarded? If you TO an event for an unappreciative shore, go somewhere else.

You people are starting to sound greedy.

Wow, I hope you people realize that these ships will all be for sale soon. So if do not get a prize, you can still buy one later.

Why all the crying about "what do I get"? Just enjoy the game and have fun. If you TO the event are you crying about not getting paid or rewarded? If you TO an event for an unappreciative shore, go somewhere else.

You people are starting to sound greedy.

Seriously??

Most TOs are volunteers, who devote an entire day of their time to running an event so you can have fun at it. They're generally completely uncompensated, but a question over whether there's an extra card in the box for them is sounding greedy??

What a clueless twit.

I know a judge who frequently adjudicates Magic events that he participates in, and it always rankles. Wizards has a long standing rule of which this is a direct violation, and said judge has even caused me a match loss before. I don't think it's as extreme a circumstance as you believe it to be.

This pretty much avoids everything I was actually saying.

First, I presented several ways to mitigate the conflict of interest - were any of them in place?

Second, would that match loss have been prevented if the same TO was just as biased in favor of a friend you were playing against?

Sorry, I've been a bit rushed this morning. I was relating my experiences tangentially, not as a direct argument.

The principle is simple. In order to have a viable competitive scene, two things must be present: a comprehensive, precise, and unambiguous set of rules; and knowledgable, neutral judges capable of arbitrating when conflict arises. A judge must be beyond reproach, and participation in an event automatically comprises his neutrality - even if there are multiple judges. True, you cannot avoid potential favoritism when it comes to friends, but that is not carte blanche to throw all propriety out the window. Every reasonable step must be taken to ensure the integrity of both the judge and the event.

Perhaps the problem here is that we're conflating the roles of TO and judge, and while that's not my intention, the lack of an official administrative body (a la the DCI) makes it difficult to sometimes differentiate between the two. X-Wing is a new game, and has plenty of room to grow. FFG could afford to take a few pages out of Wizards' book, considering its 20 year accumulation of competitive experience.

A judge must be beyond reproach, and participation in an event automatically comprises his neutrality - even if there are multiple judges. True, you cannot avoid potential favoritism when it comes to friends, but that is not carte blanche to throw all propriety out the window.

So why is a judge automatically compromised by being in the event? What makes potential favoritism for one's self somehow worse than potential favoritism for friends? Honestly, if anything, friends should be a bigger concern - it's relatively easy to identify cases where a judge's personal stake in the event may be affected by a ruling. It's much harder to try and analyze all the other relationships that might be in play.

Magic is a unique beast, and has a competitive structure which few other games want or need. Trying to take lessons from WotC is exactly the wrong thing to do. And honestly, your core premise seems to be flawed - a great many games have thriving competitive environments without any of the things you suggest are required.

The DCI works for Magic. It does not necessarily work for X-wing. I love that FFG is taking a lot of their OP ideas from Decipher. Something like DCI is needed for Magic due to the money involved. And if you have paid attention to FFG's policy, they are never going to try and foster an environment that Magic has.

The dual judge system works fine, imo, for local events. Which include Store Championships.

I emailed FFG and was told there is an extra extended art promo card for the TO. Last I checked it isn't listed in the kit contents, but there should be an extra card.

Yup... there are 17 Bandit Cards... 1 for the TO, 1 for each of the top 16.

The lack of official oversight that accompanies a competitive scene in its infancy makes the potential for abuse that much higher, so don't you think extra care should be taken, not less?

Buhallin - again, you can weigh the bias of being friends with other players against the conflict of interest that I'm talking about, but acquiescing to the potential inevitability of one does not perforce mean that we should tolerate the other. Every reasonable step should be taken to ensure the integrity of the event. Disallowing judges from participating is perfectly reasonable. And, if you're really concerned with judges favoring their friends, it would also be perfectly reasonable to send for judges from outside the immediate area for bigger events. I don't know why you frown on the mechanisms Wizards has in place. I have never had more faith in the integrity of a competitive environment than the one they foster, my qualms about one particular judge notwithstanding.

Wow, I hope you people realize that these ships will all be for sale soon. So if do not get a prize, you can still buy one later.

Why all the crying about "what do I get"? Just enjoy the game and have fun. If you TO the event are you crying about not getting paid or rewarded? If you TO an event for an unappreciative shore, go somewhere else.

You people are starting to sound greedy.

FFG requires that this event be run per their tournament rules. Those rules require a tournament organizer / judge to run the event and specifically NOT participate.

If you volunteer your time to run an event you also waive your opportunity to participate in that tournament. And let's be honest, the people that are typically involved enough to run a tournament are the people that love to play the game.

In the past FFG has provided some special prizes specifically for the TO. This happened with the Kessel Run (which is the most similar past event to Imdaar Alpha) where I believe the TO got an A-Wing and an Interceptor. Other events have included custom range rulers, tokens, dice, etc. This time around they hadn't announced anything and that is very unfortunate if true.

Personally I have never been a TO however I feel very strongly that FFG needs to take care of those people and give good people some incentive to miss the fun of a tournament.

This is about taking care of the people who sacrifice having fun to make sure others have a great time. That's selfless not greed.

A TO/judge should, at most, be the ringer and not eligible for placement/prizes. If that's an issue (and I get it, most TOs are also players), figure out a way to rotate so that it's not a big deal. TBH, I have been in several tournaments and have seen very few instances that required any judgment, so I don't really see it as a big issue, but I do agree wholeheartedly that the APPEARANCE of impropriety can run high when the TO plays. That effect could completely undermine a tournament community, so it's hardly worth the risk.

You are missing the point.

FFG requires that this event be run per their tournament rules. Those rules require a tournament organizer / judge to run the event and specifically NOT participate.

Umm... Actually, you're allowed to play as long as it's not a premier event, which Imdaar Alpha isn't...

A TO/judge should, at most, be the ringer and not eligible for placement/prizes. If that's an issue (and I get it, most TOs are also players), figure out a way to rotate so that it's not a big deal. TBH, I have been in several tournaments and have seen very few instances that required any judgment, so I don't really see it as a big issue, but I do agree wholeheartedly that the APPEARANCE of impropriety can run high when the TO plays. That effect could completely undermine a tournament community, so it's hardly worth the risk.

It's all based on the individuals. We have a local players who does most if not all of the TO/judging for both X-Wing and Star Wars Miniatures. I have seen him rule against himself when others in attendance believed the ruling should have gone the other way. In retrospect they were correct. From that standpoint our local tournaments are lucky to have someone like that running the show.

Unfortunately you can't rely on that to be the case with everyone.

You are missing the point.

FFG requires that this event be run per their tournament rules. Those rules require a tournament organizer / judge to run the event and specifically NOT participate.

Umm... Actually, you're allowed to play as long as it's not a premier event, which Imdaar Alpha isn't...

Well then that's awesome. I guess I need to take another look through the updated floor rules.

I still standby the idea of TO's typically being selfless rather than selfish and greedy though. :-)

Every reasonable step should be taken to ensure the integrity of the event. Disallowing judges from participating is perfectly reasonable.

Just because a step may be reasonable does not mean it is the only option to achieve the same goals. There are many steps that could be considered reasonable, without being necessary to achieve the goal. And even then, "reasonable" is a rather badly loaded term, and deeply subjective.

The goal is to ensure that a judge in an event cannot influence rulings to his favor, correct? Does having multiple judges somehow fail to accomplish that goal? You keep asserting that it doesn't, but don't actually provide even a corner case to support that.

Honestly, I think we're delving into some very subjective territory, and that might be my fault. I put a lot of stock in my own experiences with another very successful game, and you clearly don't feel the same way. For the sake of civility I will agree to disagree. That is a very rare concession from me, so I hope you will take my proffered olive branch in the spirit with which it is being given, rather than perceive this to be some kind of cop out.

Unfortunately you can't rely on that to be the case with everyone.

And that's pretty much the sum of it, which means that you should probably err on the side of conservative rather than risk losing potential tournament players who may see it the other way.

I played in a tourney this weekend and the TO filled in as the 12th man to avoid byes. He seems like a stand-up guy, but as it turned out, he finished second despite not being on the "top table" for round 4 (he got the SOS bump to slip past the loser of the top game). I didn't care, but I could have seen this rubbing some people the wrong way, absolutely, even though he didn't have to issue any judgments all day. Had he simply been a ringer and absolved himself from placement, I think that it would have been the better way to go.

I didn't care, but I could have seen this rubbing some people the wrong way, absolutely, even though he didn't have to issue any judgments all day.

I can see it rubbing those people the wrong way, but at least personally, I'm not terribly inclined to care about them.

If the TO is provably neutral - the math for scoring is verifiable, and there's not even a single ruling to be made, much less one that involves the judge - then there is nothing to object to, and it's just gripiness for its own sake. If they're not objective enough to look at whether there was any actual impropriety, hell, whether there was the POTENTIAL for impropriety, then I'm not going to go out of my way to accommodate such wilting flowers.

Had he simply been a ringer and absolved himself from placement, I think that it would have been the better way to go.

Why?

It sounds like he earned the 2nd place spot, and from the sounds of things he didn't do anything that could be considered cheating or abusing his power.

I get the idea of avoiding the appearance of evil, and that if the judge plays his ruling might be called into question. But if the TO didn't make any rulings I'm not sure why he should be asked to give up a prize he won fairly.

Wow, I hope you people realize that these ships will all be for sale soon. So if do not get a prize, you can still buy one later.

Why all the crying about "what do I get"? Just enjoy the game and have fun. If you TO the event are you crying about not getting paid or rewarded? If you TO an event for an unappreciative shore, go somewhere else.

You people are starting to sound greedy.

Seriously??

Most TOs are volunteers, who devote an entire day of their time to running an event so you can have fun at it. They're generally completely uncompensated, but a question over whether there's an extra card in the box for them is sounding greedy??

What a clueless twit.

Buhallin: you do not sound like you really understand about being a fair impartial judge. How you cannot see that being a TO and playing is a conflict of interest.

Also complaining about not being compensated is just greedy whining. If the TO wants a reward for doing these then make it part of the agreement for doing that. Lots of preople "TO" games to support players without a hand out.

Last, the fact that you get personal, when people disagree with you, reveals that you are just not mature enought to be posting on the internet fourms.

Unfortunately you can't rely on that to be the case with everyone.

And that's pretty much the sum of it, which means that you should probably err on the side of conservative rather than risk losing potential tournament players who may see it the other way.

I played in a tourney this weekend and the TO filled in as the 12th man to avoid byes. He seems like a stand-up guy, but as it turned out, he finished second despite not being on the "top table" for round 4 (he got the SOS bump to slip past the loser of the top game). I didn't care, but I could have seen this rubbing some people the wrong way, absolutely, even though he didn't have to issue any judgments all day. Had he simply been a ringer and absolved himself from placement, I think that it would have been the better way to go.

For the record, at the event being spoken of, there was a second TO present. I know because I was the second TO. This wasn't even an official event anyway so there's no problem at all.

Jim

Wow, I hope you people realize that these ships will all be for sale soon. So if do not get a prize, you can still buy one later.

Why all the crying about "what do I get"? Just enjoy the game and have fun. If you TO the event are you crying about not getting paid or rewarded? If you TO an event for an unappreciative shore, go somewhere else.

You people are starting to sound greedy.

You are missing the point.

FFG requires that this event be run per their tournament rules. Those rules require a tournament organizer / judge to run the event and specifically NOT participate.

If you volunteer your time to run an event you also waive your opportunity to participate in that tournament. And let's be honest, the people that are typically involved enough to run a tournament are the people that love to play the game.

In the past FFG has provided some special prizes specifically for the TO. This happened with the Kessel Run (which is the most similar past event to Imdaar Alpha) where I believe the TO got an A-Wing and an Interceptor. Other events have included custom range rulers, tokens, dice, etc. This time around they hadn't announced anything and that is very unfortunate if true.

Personally I have never been a TO however I feel very strongly that FFG needs to take care of those people and give good people some incentive to miss the fun of a tournament.

This is about taking care of the people who sacrifice having fun to make sure others have a great time. That's selfless not greed.

Galactik:

I totally agree with you, but the way the issue is being posted, sounds like people whinning about not getting freebees. When our group TOs games, people are looking to provide a forum for the players to play, and not a handout. Next event, hopefully someone else TO's, and so on. But thats not what is going on here. You can play anytime. Pleople here are "bitching" about not getting something for free rather than supporting the growth of the game and the gamers.

FFG does what they like and need to do, whithout everyone looking for a ffreebe. Hell with the figures coming out I was supprised a company would offer that an an award.

Next, most TOs are usually store owners and they should be TOing teh events, and not the store's customers.

Buhallin: you do not sound like you really understand about being a fair impartial judge. How you cannot see that being a TO and playing is a conflict of interest.

Yes, it is a potential conflict of interest. I've acknowledged that above. But what, exactly, is a conflict of interest?

It's being in a position to abuse either power or information, where others can expect you to advantage yourself instead of acting neutrally. That needs to happen. But you don't need to remove a TO from the entire event in order to accomplish it. You just need to remove them from the position which would allow them to abuse it. Nobody has yet proposed any way that a TO can abuse his position if there is a second judge in place. If the TO cannot unfairly advantage himself, where is the conflict?

This should not be shocking. The real world is replete with examples of potential conflicts of interest which are mitigated by limitations and rules that don't involve locking someone out of their career entirely.

Also complaining about not being compensated is just greedy whining. If the TO wants a reward for doing these then make it part of the agreement for doing that. Lots of preople "TO" games to support players without a hand out.

Last, the fact that you get personal, when people disagree with you, reveals that you are just not mature enought to be posting on the internet fourms.

Really? You lead into the thread with anyone who disagrees with you being a "greedy whiner" and then try and play some moral high ground about getting personal? Wow.

Also complaining about not being compensated is just greedy whining. If the TO wants a reward for doing these then make it part of the agreement for doing that. Lots of preople "TO" games to support players without a hand out.

Last, the fact that you get personal, when people disagree with you, reveals that you are just not mature enought to be posting on the internet fourms.

Really? You lead into the thread with anyone who disagrees with you being a "greedy whiner" and then try and play some moral high ground about getting personal? Wow.

The idea of a non-employee TOing an event and not getting compensated by FFG or the store in some way sickens me. That's just taking advantage of a kind-hearted fan. Being a TO is WORK. FFG has and should continue to thank those that volunteer to do what is often a thankless job otherwise.

Also complaining about not being compensated is just greedy whining. If the TO wants a reward for doing these then make it part of the agreement for doing that. Lots of preople "TO" games to support players without a hand out.

Last, the fact that you get personal, when people disagree with you, reveals that you are just not mature enought to be posting on the internet fourms.

Really? You lead into the thread with anyone who disagrees with you being a "greedy whiner" and then try and play some moral high ground about getting personal? Wow.

The idea of a non-employee TOing an event and not getting compensated by FFG or the store in some way sickens me. That's just taking advantage of a kind-hearted fan. Being a TO is WORK. FFG has and should continue to thank those that volunteer to do what is often a thankless job otherwise.

I wish we had the numbers here because I would love to organize and get tournaments in my area going. Id do it not for free stuff but to get others who love the game like me together and have fun

However with that said I would also want to play in the event, and with the current rules I would find another To, probably the store owner who doesn't play, and I'd go right by the rules