Creatures Anathema has a ton of alien weapons, actually.

I should have been more clear.

Dark Heresy core, before all the splat books came out later. =P

Rather amusingly It seems that nobody has considered that this might just be

A: superstious nonsense that has leaped the mechanics barrier. Perhaps the blessinjg is just that, a collection of ritual actions and phrases of no inherent value that are believed to aid a weapon`s function (rather like knights anointing their blades with holy water before going on a crusade.)

B: the TP actually performing some basic maintainence on the run, albeit in an abstracted manner intended to be used between encounters and subsequently abused as a wireless fix due to misrepresentation in the rules.

I just view the effects of omnissian tech-rituals as a conciet of space-fantasy. After all why both becoming a tech priest when you can just learn some tech use? Answer: pseudo-magic techno powers! Or as a famous author once said "sufficiently advanced technology."

Clark's third law: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

We simply do not know it, neither do the RPs in-Verse. That is their Theme - knowledge without wisdom.

We have in fact many grey areas. What are the machine spirits? Are they present in any mechanical construct, only to a lesser degree in something ordinary like a lasgun? Are they in fact some sort of AI or better, artificial consciousness that is only hosted in "computers" that are in fact part human and are only integrated in such venerated machines like Land Raiders or Titans where they might be the hosts to several personalities, or specific personal quirks that got "absorbed" or somehow were interpreted into coding.

Is the machine god a true being? Maybe? Is it the Dragon? Depends.

But what we know is that it works. The AdMech has went through so much problems that they sit on one of the greatest library of the universe but it is infected by the damage caused by such tremendous disasters like the war against the Iron Men and later their own heretic brothers. I do not believe that everything is lost, it is just corrupted and hidden in dark corridors long forgotten, behind ancient war machines and tech horrors of former times. That is why they are so eager to discover STCs from other worlds, where not such disasters happened. And that is why they spend centuries if not millenniums to check if it is tainted or not. They life in constant fear for they actually know what they could become. Just think about the concept of the data crypts. Knowledge is gathered but it is not really studied. Give them some centuries of utter and complete peace and maybe they could recover. But that is not the fact. The AdMech is established as the ever moving gear that can not stop to catch up though even to this date their technology is simply great (compare to Eldar and Tau, and the Imperium even surpasses them in some regards).

I like them to be in the grey zone, but maybe that is just my taste for they are the Faction I adore the most in the entire fluff.

Some prefer to explain everything with technology, though we most certainly hit a problem here when technology actually starts to interfere with "space magic" like warp drives. I am okay with that, for everyone has to make it up for himself.

II counter Clarke's Third Law with Occam's Razor. Because in a version of the 40k setting where divine magic actually exists (FFG Acts of Faith), there is no reason not to use it as explanation if all other solutions are flawed.

Actually I was not arguing for an "only technology" standpoint but a grey zone where it is neither one nor another, it is most likely both. Some times more magic and less technology, some times less.

I just wanted to refer to Clarke for he made a good point about the two things being indistinguishable. In fact we have some similarities wit h "The City and the Stars" where ultra-modern technology exists but nobody understands them. In the case of WH40k we have the ultimate Deus-Ex-Machina-Warp-Space-Magic and the line gets even more blurry.

What is the Warp? Is his "existence", betraying the laws of nature, or just another law of nature - the very essence of chaos (not the faction)? And is its mastery just one other field of science? Is its mastery not just one other field of applied technology? In fact it is. That is what warp engines are about. That is what many other miracles of the dark age of technology are about. At some point in the WH40k timeframe the warp WAS technology. So maybe some rituals are still that: a hybrid and so may be this very talent - though I would not refer to the FFG Rulebooks to make assumptions for the entire 40k fluff.

But to be honest: The talent is just very bad worded, executed and gamey. Even if it was some sort of psycic power and/or act of faith I would not allow it to affect xenos/heretical wargear. "See how my honest faith into the machine god fixes the stuff I hate"

Just to bring it slightly back on track, if you are playing Techpriest like me than the answer is nothing - it is the next logical step on the path to becoming of the true flesh :-)

Just need some bloody XP! (and my Shield of Humanity delivered!)

Actually I was not arguing for an "only technology" standpoint but a grey zone where it is neither one nor another, it is most likely both. Some times more magic and less technology, some times less. [...] So maybe some rituals are still that: a hybrid and so may be this very talent - though I would not refer to the FFG Rulebooks to make assumptions for the entire 40k fluff.

Ah! Gotcha - and I agree. My personal opinion and preferred interpretation is actually that it's all a mixture of technology and superstition; it just makes the setting feel a little more realistic/immersive, and more grimdark than if the Cult Mechanicus and the Ecclesiarchy were actually "right" about what they preach. That is what I took from GW's material, anyways, which is why I've also mentioned that Tech-Priests in the Inquisitor game gain no abilities aside from specialist knowledge.

However, the setting is interpreted differently depending on the sources one is leaning on, as different authors have different ideas and preferences regarding 40k, hence my theory that things may just work differently in this RPG - the nature of Acts of Faith being a clear example. Though, to be fair, Gun Blessing cannot be blamed on FFG; this Talent was already part of the game before they took over the product line from the Black Industries team.

It could probably be justified under some circumstances - either for the greater good (fixing the weapon of a character that is defending Mechanicus property), or because the weapon in question was ritually "cleansed and reconsecrated" ...

You can always ask the player if he can come up with a valid excuse, and then decide from there.

It's kind of with the "Lawful Good" alignment interpretations and how they might limit a paladin's actions/abilities.

It could probably be justified under some circumstances - either for the greater good (fixing the weapon of a character that is defending Mechanicus property), or because the weapon in question was ritually "cleansed and reconsecrated" ...

You can always ask the player if he can come up with a valid excuse, and then decide from there.

My decision is BLAM!^^

Well, at last I would require the TP to actually know the weapon design and be okay about it - yes. How he manages and incorporates it into his faith is another topic though. But the thing about greater good... hell, I do not want to be the person that tries to argue with a TP how breaking one of the universal laws (the most greater good around^^) could be actually achieving another, even better greater good.^^ In the best case you would receive a nonstop circle-quote of some laws, in the worst case some error-codes in binary chatter and a servo arm reaching out for you. xD

I always though thought of it as some kind of awkward and partly useless to be honest. I just played one TP in DH1 and all the other FFG systems, but him for around two and a half year and never took it. the "magnetic" talents though were nice gadgets to have. It simply never made much sense in the first place why you could manipulate that very specific thing and one has to wonder why that is. Also my TP was very convincing to other party members actually learning the "required" skills to take care of their equipment. As a TP you always have the upper hand.^^

BTT:

There is not much drawback besides the stated. There is a reason why the TPs fancy the gifts of the machine god for there are not many drawbacks included (given that you are totally okay with loosing the social abilities of touching each other of feeling another humans warmth etc.^^)

I wouldn't draw too many conclusions about the nature of the Techpriests from one talent. It simply might be an ill-conceived talent which nobody has bothered to retcon yet. A lot of what the Techpriests do can be explained with science and that's what FFG should stick to - straddling the borderline between science and magic so that it's not clear what it is.

At least that's my preference.

Alex

Mine too. But the same could be said about Acts of Faith, and those are decidedly magical in nature in this game, given some of those newly invented effects.

Sort of surprised this didn't Arthur C. Clarke somewhere along the line, what with all the possible "science too advanced for us to understand can seem like, and be indistinguishable from magic." Also, with every single "device" having a Machine Spirit, even crap no Human built, that means that non-computerized guns, toasters, and and everything has some degree of intelligence, or at least programmed awareness and perception; I'm willing to let some of what the AdMech can get away with slide, when my plasma pistol apparently has some archaic/advanced (your pick) version of an operating system. If there is a man in England right now who can interact with his computer, and even do web-searches, with his mind, and there is, as he's trying to Borg himself up, then I'd think Tech-Priests, with their variously better stuff, and EVERY item being at least sort of a computer, or what's running "Gun Machine Spirit v1.6", it should be easy for them. My opinion, anyway.

Sort of surprised this didn't Arthur C. Clarke somewhere along the line

It did. Like the rest of your post, whose contents have already been countered.

Just to go back to the OP`s original query there are not defined drawbacks. any you care to add are just good practice.

After all If you become and unfeeling juggernaut of mechanical divinity will you remember all those touchy-feely things that your squishier squadmates still like, such as warning them during gas attacks?

A common trait of Humanity is that at a basic level we see ourselves as interchangable, "if I can (activity,) you can too." Even when this is not the case this belief influences us. Now extend this to a person with seven wide spectrum eyes, a built in rebreather and a dozen extra senses. At least at first he unconsciously won`t register that he is no longer interchangeable.

It is this feeling that we are essentially the same that allows humans to empathise, enables us to relate to others and know what we can reasonably expect of each other. Take that away and suddenly the world is a very unusual place.

In short I think characters with the machine trait should be sailing away over the horizon from humanity and should have difficulty relating to and recalling the capabilities of MK1 "Terran" pattern Humans.

Sort of surprised this didn't Arthur C. Clarke somewhere along the line

It did. Like the rest of your post, whose contents have already been countered.

Ouch, you wound me, ever so slightly. However, I more meant that no one else made the referenced quote; yeah, that's what I meant.

I suppose the really weak excuse I will now hide behind is this: if not some goofy techno-magic, vague as only Tech-Priests can hold, what would you have them do? TPs are Specialists, which SHOULD mean that they are weird, different, and possibly possess an ability no other toon has, but honestly, they don't have much else but techno-jumbo. Other characters can get Tech-Use, so that's covered, and most of that trick is purely a skill, rather than a Tech-Priest. Would he be our gear acquirer? Others might be better? Might he modify my gear? He can only do that so much, and then I have "upgraded gear", and he's done. Also, that could as easily, with time being needed, just be an NPC's job. Melee expert? Well, he will have some nice options, but there might be better ones, and Power Armor isn't on them, yet.

I'm not saying that it's good, or sensible, but maybe they gave them technomancy just so they'd be real Specialists; have something the other characters CAN'T do.

I suppose the really weak excuse I will now hide behind is this: if not some goofy techno-magic, vague as only Tech-Priests can hold, what would you have them do?

Yeah, that's a tricky question - although I think most of the Talents/Abilities they came up with for TPs actually do fit to what I'd consider "explainable". It's just that Gun Blessing is, to me, an example that breaks with this frame. Maybe they just didn't consider how it could be perceived?

An "easy fix" for Gun Blessing might be to require the Tech-Priest to have spent time with the weapon in question, modifying it by adding something like those tecnos self-repair circuits , basically installing a remote access module keyed to their wi-fi.

Alternatively, they could have gone the GW/Inquisitor route and just limit access to the Tech-Use skill, thus making Tech-Priests more valuable simply for the knowledge and interfacing capabilities they possess. You want that maglock open? Get the Tech-Priest. Cogitator files are encoded? Get the TP. Hacking into a vox array or sensor net? Re-wiring a servitor to use as a decoy? Identifying the purpose of some mechanic device? Selectively shutting down a security grid? Triggering a power failure or systems overload? Fixing the engine of your vehicle? Remote-controlling a surveillance drone? Tech-Priest, Tech-Priest, Tech-Priest.

Yes, he or she won't have as much "direct use" or special abilities in combat, but hey, it's not like Adepts got turned into the 40k version of D&D Bards either, inspiring their allies by reading from one of the dusty tomes they carry around. The Tech-Priest at least has a good chance of owning some cybernetic gear that might be of use for greater accuracy in ranged combat, or additional arms/strength in melee.

Someone already mentioned Shadowrun deckers as inspiration, too.

I'm not saying that it's good, or sensible, but maybe they gave them technomancy just so they'd be real Specialists; have something the other characters CAN'T do.

A cornerstone of the later FFG games (BC and OW) has been that anycharacter can progess in any direction from any starting point, where they start just determines their original gear and initial abilities.

As such giving TPs unique abilities after thei initial starting options isn't in the free-form spirit of the game.

A cornerstone of the later FFG games (BC and OW) has been that anycharacter can progess in any direction from any starting point, where they start just determines their original gear and initial abilities.

As such giving TPs unique abilities after thei initial starting options isn't in the free-form spirit of the game.

Well, that is not really true. There are still talents around that require the AdMech TP implants or some gear/implants that is dedicated to TPs. They are special for... they are special. In theory you could also give anyone else the TP specific gear/talents but neither would that make sense in the most case nor would it fit the archetype that is not just some collection of gear and abilities.

A cornerstone of the later FFG games (BC and OW) has been that anycharacter can progess in any direction from any starting point, where they start just determines their original gear and initial abilities.

As such giving TPs unique abilities after thei initial starting options isn't in the free-form spirit of the game.

Well, that is not really true. There are still talents around that require the AdMech TP implants or some gear/implants that is dedicated to TPs. They are special for... they are special. In theory you could also give anyone else the TP specific gear/talents but neither would that make sense in the most case nor would it fit the archetype that is not just some collection of gear and abilities.

Reread the post you quoted, those unique implants come squarely under "original gear and Initial abilities" also those "require tp implants" abilities you refer to are essentially carried over from DH1 for the purpose of conformity across the game lines and as we all know DH1 has a far more class segregated mechanical model.

essentially carried over from DH1 for the purpose of conformity across the game lines

I'd say it's more likely they were just left in because they were already there and nobody felt a need to invent the wheel twice, much like half the rules are basically copy-pasted from one book to another. "Conformity" doesn't appear to have been high on the list of priorities, given certain difference in rules, item and NPC stats, and the accompanying power level.

I meant in terms of "hey my tech preist can do silly techmantic crap in DH1 why can`t he in OW?" you know, a unformity of interpretation of the setting across the multiple (theorhetically compatible) game lines.

Oooh. Yeah, I guess that makes sense. "Preserving the vision" and so on.

Though they pretty much did a 180 on the Battle Sisters with BoM when "updating" her from the Black Industries version to FFG.