I've been playing this game for over a year now, and I love it. The whole time I really only have had one opponent, who I got into the game so I could have someone to play with. We started with core sets and worked or way up from there. Over time, I have eliminated many of my beginner problems and experimented with many different pilots and upgrades to increase my skill level. My opponent on the other hand, has not. No matter what list I give him, with only a few types of ships and upgrades he can't seem to see the individuality of the different ships and pilots. He will always play almost the exact same strategy no matter what he has. To him, an A Wing and an X wing have little difference in how you play them, or biggs and wedge, or an interceptor and a B Wing, etc. This has obviously made our games much less enjoyable given the fact that he's not a very good opponent due to this problem.Can anyone give me some ideas other than simplifying lists to convince him that every ship and pilot is unique, and they require different strategies?

Have you spoken to him about it?

Play against people all over the world on Vassal?

Have you spoken to him about it?

Yes, I have and me giving him simple lists to play that focus on one or two upgrades/ships have been my solution so far. I just need something that really makes him see the differences and makes the whole thing click.

Play against people all over the world on Vassal?

Yes, I've been working towards being more familiar with vassal and with finding players close to me but I'd like the main person I play against to enjoy the game as much as me by understanding it more, and vassal kinda takes half of the fun by eliminating having awesome little miniatures on the table.

Honestly, give him a list he'll do well with. Whatever that may be. And have him play it until he's mastered it. It sounds like he'd do well with a 4X list, which is perfectly valid and competitive. He doesn't seem the type of player to appreciate strategy the same way you are. And then run alternative lists against him. Things that aren't so good. Run 2 Hawk-2 A-Wing lists. Or 3 Ship lists with 2 A-Wings.(Granted this has backfired. I managed to beat my brother in laws Mini Swarm and Firespray list with 2 Hawks with ions and 2 A-wings. Thought for sure my damage output would be crap. Lost a single ship... Made me sad.

Yeah, he seems attached to han shoots first. I think I should just stop trying to teach him so much and just let it come naturally.

If you gave him a Falcon no wonder he doesn't get it. The Falcon's so forgiving that you don't learn the game.

Exterminate Falcon. Lock it in a box somewhere and don't let it out until you think he's clicked.

Once you've exterminated Falcon, give him X-wings and play something like PTL interceptors. Use the strategies you want him to learn very obviously against him and explain what you're doing. Then next game give him PTL interceptors. The person I play with we alternate sides every match and thus both have a good understanding of each ship.

That would probably be best. Maybe just give yourself a 10 or so point handicap if the skill gap is too much. If he isn't great at useing a ships strengths a middle of the road craft like the x-wing or something simple like yts or ys would work best for him.

It almost sounds like he doesn't care, and is happy with how the games are going.

Not everyone who plays this game spends a ton of time thinking about lists, and considering tactics to use, or takes the odds of hitting 4+ tie fighters with a assault missile to 5 decimal points...

Some people are happy pushing plastic spaceships around the table and going pew pew.

I say that because if someone tries to fly a A-Wing like a X-Wing they're not going to do well. But if they keep doing that, it makes you wonder how much they care about doing well in the first place.

If you gave him a Falcon no wonder he doesn't get it. The Falcon's so forgiving that you don't learn the game.

Exterminate Falcon. Lock it in a box somewhere and don't let it out until you think he's clicked.

Once you've exterminated Falcon, give him X-wings and play something like PTL interceptors. Use the strategies you want him to learn very obviously against him and explain what you're doing. Then next game give him PTL interceptors. The person I play with we alternate sides every match and thus both have a good understanding of each ship.

This.

Last night a friend and I taught some new players the game and one of the newbies wanted to play the Falcon. I slapped his hand and gave him Luke+R2 and told him, "You'll never learn anything if you fly that hunk of junk." Within a few turns, I had created another addict....muahahaa.

"The person I play with we alternate sides every match and thus both have a good understanding of each ship."

Do this. Give him a list and beat him. Then switch sides, fly the list properly and hopefully beat him again.

Show, don't tell.

Of course, some people just don't get strategy games the way obsessive mini's gamers get. Your normal Joe doesn't care if some abilities are marginally better than others, and act impulsively in total violation of mathhammer. It's a game and they want to have fun playing it by playing according to their own style and habits.

If your opponent doesn't really care about the finer points of the game, then your experience is equivalent to a single player game. If this is truly the case I recommend you give the guy a handicap or let him enter some new ships from reserve on turn 3.

There's a difference between breaking the game down to maths and having a decent level of tactical understanding.

There's a difference between breaking the game down to maths and having a decent level of tactical understanding.

Sure but for some people tactical understanding doesn't matter. They're completely happy just pushing the ships around.

Don't assume that just because someone treats a A-Wing, Y-Wing, X-Wing and Tie Interceptor as being the same basic thing that they need to be taught better. They may simply not care, and trying to teach them better might simply drive them out of the game.

A lot of posts here seem to think that the guy doesn't get it, and simply needs to be taught better, but maybe he does get it, but just doesn't care.

If he likes pushing ships around and likes the falcon taking it away isn't going to teach him anything other then he has to do it 'your way' and you're going to punish him until he gets with the program.

There's a difference between breaking the game down to maths and having a decent level of tactical understanding.

Sure but for some people tactical understanding doesn't matter. They're completely happy just pushing the ships around.Don't assume that just because someone treats a A-Wing, Y-Wing, X-Wing and Tie Interceptor as being the same basic thing that they need to be taught better. They may simply not care, and trying to teach them better might simply drive them out of the game.A lot of posts here seem to think that the guy doesn't get it, and simply needs to be taught better, but maybe he does get it, but just doesn't care.If he likes pushing ships around and likes the falcon taking it away isn't going to teach him anything other then he has to do it 'your way' and you're going to punish him until he gets with the program.

I think the OP wants the guy to improve to make the games more fun for him (the OP). You're right that his opponent may well not want to think about it much, in which case the OP will be annoying if he pushes it, but it's possible that the opponent really doesn't get it, and will enjoy it if he learns too. I suppose we don't know.

I think the OP wants the guy to improve to make the games more fun for him (the OP).

I get that, playing against someone who doesn't get it, or just doesn't care isn't often enjoyable. Sure you win but that's a bit like winning against a 5 year old.

I suppose we don't know.

No we don't, but AdmiralThrawn said he's talked to him about it, and it doesn't seem to change. So we're kinda left with two likely options.

One the guy isn't capable of getting it for some reason. Perhaps he just doesn't think that way.

Two he doesn't care and trying to push him will simply turn him off the game.

A third option is that AdmiralThrawn hasn't hit on what will make it click for this guy. But it sounds like he's tried a number of things so that seems less likely.

I think the OP wants the guy to improve to make the games more fun for him (the OP).

I get that, playing against someone who doesn't get it, or just doesn't care isn't often enjoyable. Sure you win but that's a bit like winning against a 5 year old.

I suppose we don't know.

No we don't, but AdmiralThrawn said he's talked to him about it, and it doesn't seem to change. So we're kinda left with two likely options.One the guy isn't capable of getting it for some reason. Perhaps he just doesn't think that way.Two he doesn't care and trying to push him will simply turn him off the game.A third option is that AdmiralThrawn hasn't hit on what will make it click for this guy. But it sounds like he's tried a number of things so that seems less likely.

Yeah, it sounds like that may well be the case. Fingers crossed for AdmiralThrawn. If the opponent doesn't improve hop on a plane and come play with me in Leeds (UK), I've precious few people to play with!

"The person I play with we alternate sides every match and thus both have a good understanding of each ship."

Do this. Give him a list and beat him. Then switch sides, fly the list properly and hopefully beat him again.

Show, don't tell.

I second this...

...often I learn more from observation than from being told. If he isn't learning from defeat, show him how it is done and perhaps he'll learn that way.

Thanks for all the feedback everyone! mazz0 unfortunately I will be unable to go to the UK, but I'll use some of all of the advice above.

There's a difference between breaking the game down to maths and having a decent level of tactical understanding.

Sure but for some people tactical understanding doesn't matter. They're completely happy just pushing the ships around.

Don't assume that just because someone treats a A-Wing, Y-Wing, X-Wing and Tie Interceptor as being the same basic thing that they need to be taught better. They may simply not care, and trying to teach them better might simply drive them out of the game.

A lot of posts here seem to think that the guy doesn't get it, and simply needs to be taught better, but maybe he does get it, but just doesn't care.

If he likes pushing ships around and likes the falcon taking it away isn't going to teach him anything other then he has to do it 'your way' and you're going to punish him until he gets with the program.

You're making him sound like a toddler. He may not be interested in the finer details but he's still trying to play the game. He's not moving ships to the end of templates and giggling.

He may not be interested in having details drummed into him, but experience is an excellent and a subtle teacher. Give him the opportunity to find out what works. That, and go easier on him. He's not going to learn how to fly an A-wing over an X-wing if you blow it up either way.

Besides, taking the Falcon out is never a bad idea, whether he wants to learn or not. If he's only got proper ships then he will learn simply through experience. If you think he'll object to its demise then "lose" it for a while.

There's a difference between breaking the game down to maths and having a decent level of tactical understanding.

Sure but for some people tactical understanding doesn't matter. They're completely happy just pushing the ships around.

Don't assume that just because someone treats a A-Wing, Y-Wing, X-Wing and Tie Interceptor as being the same basic thing that they need to be taught better. They may simply not care, and trying to teach them better might simply drive them out of the game.

A lot of posts here seem to think that the guy doesn't get it, and simply needs to be taught better, but maybe he does get it, but just doesn't care.

If he likes pushing ships around and likes the falcon taking it away isn't going to teach him anything other then he has to do it 'your way' and you're going to punish him until he gets with the program.

You're making him sound like a toddler. He may not be interested in the finer details but he's still trying to play the game. He's not moving ships to the end of templates and giggling.

He may not be interested in having details drummed into him, but experience is an excellent and a subtle teacher. Give him the opportunity to find out what works. That, and go easier on him. He's not going to learn how to fly an A-wing over an X-wing if you blow it up either way.

Besides, taking the Falcon out is never a bad idea, whether he wants to learn or not. If he's only got proper ships then he will learn simply through experience. If you think he'll object to its demise then "lose" it for a while.

What do you suppose is the best way to go easy on him? Bringing a bad list to the game to start, purposely exposing myself to his fire, not focusing fire on one of his ships, chasing someone I know isn't a primary target, etc.?

There's a difference between breaking the game down to maths and having a decent level of tactical understanding.

Sure but for some people tactical understanding doesn't matter. They're completely happy just pushing the ships around.

Don't assume that just because someone treats a A-Wing, Y-Wing, X-Wing and Tie Interceptor as being the same basic thing that they need to be taught better. They may simply not care, and trying to teach them better might simply drive them out of the game.

A lot of posts here seem to think that the guy doesn't get it, and simply needs to be taught better, but maybe he does get it, but just doesn't care.

If he likes pushing ships around and likes the falcon taking it away isn't going to teach him anything other then he has to do it 'your way' and you're going to punish him until he gets with the program.

You're making him sound like a toddler. He may not be interested in the finer details but he's still trying to play the game. He's not moving ships to the end of templates and giggling.

He may not be interested in having details drummed into him, but experience is an excellent and a subtle teacher. Give him the opportunity to find out what works. That, and go easier on him. He's not going to learn how to fly an A-wing over an X-wing if you blow it up either way.

Besides, taking the Falcon out is never a bad idea, whether he wants to learn or not. If he's only got proper ships then he will learn simply through experience. If you think he'll object to its demise then "lose" it for a while.

What do you suppose is the best way to go easy on him? Bringing a bad list to the game to start, purposely exposing myself to his fire, not focusing fire on one of his ships, chasing someone I know isn't a primary target, etc.?

What do you suppose is the best way to go easy on him? Bringing a bad list to the game to start, purposely exposing myself to his fire, not focusing fire on one of his ships, chasing someone I know isn't a primary target, etc.?

Depends what you call a bad list. If you're going metagame builds on him all the time of course he's losing. He's not going to win against MTG's Spike mindset. I was actually suggesting leave him openings to use ships as they "should" be used (I use "" because should is relative, I've played a TIE swarm once and didn't even attempt to keep formation because it was more fun not to), but if there's a massive squadron disparity then of course he's losing.

Lagomorphia, on 03 May 2014 - 09:48 AM, said:Lagomorphia, on 03 May 2014 - 09:48 AM, said:Lagomorphia, on 03 May 2014 - 09:48 AM, said:

QuoteQuoteQuote What do you suppose is the best way to go easy on him? Bringing a bad list to the game to start, purposely exposing myself to his fire, not focusing fire on one of his ships, chasing someone I know isn't a primary target, etc.?

Depends what you call a bad list. If you're going metagame builds on him all the time of course he's losing. He's not going to win against MTG's Spike mindset. I was actually suggesting leave him openings to use ships as they "should" be used (I use "" because should is relative, I've played a TIE swarm once and didn't even attempt to keep formation because it was more fun not to), but if there's a massive squadron disparity then of course he's losing.

I use a wide variety of lists, mainly with the purpose of trying out pilots and upgrades I haven't as much before as opposed to what is the most efficient or popular. I mainly play imperial and him rebel. We switch it up every once in a while but I think it's important that he learns how to use rebel ships well before trying imps. The most disturbing difference between our skill levels is that I frequently use interceptors, and him the falcon and I still win almost every time. In the future to help him improve I think I will:

-Take the falcon from him, that 360 arc isn't helping his maneuvering

-Give him 110 points as opposed to my 100, that way I can still build and use my 100 point squads

-let him pick his own squads to avoid the feeling of me bossing him around, but I will require him to use at least one new ship, upgrade, or pilot every game. It's slow going, but I think that will help him best.

-Purposely use squads that waste points and aren't as efficient point wise (loaded up bombers etc.) and use the ships I I'm worst at, that way I'll improve in some areas

Use TIEadv, especially Maaaarek Steele

Use overloaded Xwings, things like Wedge Expose R2F2 torps Engine upgrade