Hey, I am new to the game and noticed something in Operation Shadowpoint that has me confused. Spoilers ahead.

On p.18 when the PCs are supposed to gain the respect of the Beast Riders, the adventure suggests Easy, Average, or Hard difficulty based on the approach and roleplaying of the PCs. It also says to add boost dice and setback dice “as appropriate for specific roleplaying elements arguments”. From this description, I’m really not sure in what circumstances you would change difficulty vs. add boost/setback.

Also, from reading through EotE Core, I thought you were suppose to base the difficulty on the task independent of the specific circumstances and then add boost/setbacks based on the current situation (e.g., approach, affiliations, etc.). This makes more sense to me and helps make the setback removal talents more worthwhile as well.

For example, crime lord Xo is a pretty uncaring guy not prone to listen to people so approaching him with Charm is going to be a Hard check. Now if you mention your interest in show dogs (one of Xo’s hobbies) you will get a boost die. If you fail to take off your shoes at the door you get a set back die. The only reason the GM would change the difficulty is if there was a universal reason why it would be harder for anyone to Charm Xo. So if Xo’s daughter was just kidnapped, then perhaps the difficulty to Charm goes up to Daunting or a challenge die replaces a difficulty die. But the key is that this is true for anyone approaching Xo and the circumstances that created the change in difficulty was not the PCs themselves. Is this the right way to think about it?

Has there been any more clarification on when (if at all) to change difficulty vs. add boost/setback die?

Thanks.

I can't recall seeing anything about that, no. Actually, I've sort of noticed that the published adventures are more likely to straigh-up increase difficulties rather than add setback dice the way the core book suggests. I don't know why that is, maybe it's just force of habit from other systems with a more "success-or-failure" skill check mechanic.

I just reviewed that too and I bet that the setback and boost are left off the modules internationally so that WE can add them based on what is actually going on in that exact situation. Just a guess.

It sounds like a suggestion. In case one of the PCs is mouthing off to the riders or otherwise being disrespectful. That would definitely garner some setbacks. Alternatively, if they show up with imperial uniforms, that would make the check hard, but if they showed up in street clothes, that would probably be an average check.

The beginner game is kind of meant to be independent of the core rules. Obviously they will share as much of the same rules as the can, but for the sake of brevity, they could only include the basic meat and potatoes of the rules.

I've always run my games as described in the Core book, choosing a typical difficulty for the task at hand, and then adding Boosts and Setbacks for all the extraordinary things going on for this particular instance of the task.

I assume that the adventure difficulty choice in that particular situation is a result of convincing a group. The Core book says that when using social skill on an individual, you use the opposing skill. When using them on a group it's GM's discretion based upon PC actions, etc.

(I personally base it on the average opposing skill in the NPC group)

On p.18 when the PCs are supposed to gain the respect of the Beast Riders, the adventure suggests Easy, Average, or Hard difficulty based on the approach and roleplaying of the PCs. It also says to add boost dice and setback dice “as appropriate for specific roleplaying elements arguments”. From this description, I’m really not sure in what circumstances you would change difficulty vs. add boost/setback.

...

Has there been any more clarification on when (if at all) to change difficulty vs. add boost/setback die?

Since this adventure is written for the AoR Beginner Game, I'm guessing that there are some guidelines as to when to add Boost/Setback or increase Difficulties. Quickly though:

Increase difficulty when the task at hand is HARDER (shooting farther away, looking for a rarer piece of equipment, running faster)

Add setback dice when the task at hand becomes COMPLICATED by extraneous factors (shooting into fog, bad info on that piece of equipment, running with a heavy/awkward item tucked under your arm).

I noticed that in another adventure as well. In Long Arm of the Hutt they have you upgrade the difficulty of all checks while an alarm and loud music are playing in the ship. I would think that the difficulty would not change, but they should add two setback die instead. Then they should remove a setback die when one of the factors has been fixed.

I think GMs should use setback dice more often so that the players will feel like they're XPs are well spent if they are able to remove multiple setback die on a roll because of talents they've purchased.

For me difficulty is the how hard the task is. complexity or simplicity. Boost and Setbacks are based on environment, tools, and situation.

then again, the beginner games are for new players and GMs and then tend to go into detail for roadblock type skill checks

There is fluidity in how it can be done. Difficulty is a gauge of how complicated the base situation is. Medicine rolls get harder the more advanced the trauma is (ie, over or under half threshold). Doing it in sub optimal conditions adds setback while good conditions and tools gives boosts, but it's still easier to clean and stick a cut than withdraw a slug thrower round.

Sometimes circumstances add together to make a task more complicated, like doing it on the back of the speeder. Sometimes that might be setback, sometimes that might be a simple increase in difficulty and sometimes that might be upgrade in difficulty.

My general rule of thumb as a GM for upgrading difficulty is if I can look at the situation and go 'oh, I know what a despair would be.' then I'm inclined to upgrade (base increase or with a destiny point depending on how outlandish the check is.) I try to avoid adding red when I'm not sure what I'd do with a Despair.

I really try hard not to upgrade to a red die any task without either flipping a Destiny token or because it's against an opposed skill or upgraded by a talent.

I try to keep setbacks and boosts for situational modifiers. Things like the PCs aren't dressed properly to be diplomats but are acting the case. Or the PC has a tool kit just for that task.

The actual difficulty it's basically how easy or hard the GM wants the task to be.

So if the PCs want to do the Kessel Run in less than 12 Parsecs . I would make that a Daunting Piloting roll because it's supposed to be a rare thing. I would upgrade a die with a Destiny point because nasty mishaps come to mind when talking about black holes. And last I would apply Handling modifiers.

Seems like most people agree that:

Difficulty = how hard the task/core opposition is independent of who is doing the task, unusual circumstances, approach, etc. In other words, independent of the current situation the PCs find themselves in, the skill and background of the PC, environmental circumstances, etc. The difficulty is also only based on the core task/opposition associated with the specific skill. So for a Medicine check to heal it is about the difficulty of the wound. Anything else should be dealt with boosts/setbacks. Another way to think about it is that difficulty is set "off screen" before the current scene starts.

Boosts/Setbacks = specific circumstances that effect the outcome that do not have to do directly with the level of the task/core opposition. Better or worse tools than normal, environmental factors, specific approaches and tactics that PCs take, etc. Boosts/Setbacks are added "in scene".

It's annoying that the beginner game adventures deviate from this structure in some of the examples. IMO it seems important to keep the Boosts/Setbacks flowing so that the many Talents that effect them can have value.

In the case of getting aid from the beastriders on Onderan in Shadowpoint, the difficulty should be set based on the larger geopolitical climate. Boosts/Setbacks should added based on the specific approach the PCs take, manners, etc.

On p.18 when the PCs are supposed to gain the respect of the Beast Riders, the adventure suggests Easy, Average, or Hard difficulty based on the approach and roleplaying of the PCs. It also says to add boost dice and setback dice “as appropriate for specific roleplaying elements arguments”. From this description, I’m really not sure in what circumstances you would change difficulty vs. add boost/setback.

...

Has there been any more clarification on when (if at all) to change difficulty vs. add boost/setback die?

Since this adventure is written for the AoR Beginner Game, I'm guessing that there are some guidelines as to when to add Boost/Setback or increase Difficulties. Quickly though:

Increase difficulty when the task at hand is HARDER (shooting farther away, looking for a rarer piece of equipment, running faster)

Add setback dice when the task at hand becomes COMPLICATED by extraneous factors (shooting into fog, bad info on that piece of equipment, running with a heavy/awkward item tucked under your arm).

There are some guidlines are adjusting difficulty but they all sounds much more like COMPLICATIONS than anything else.

It sounds like a suggestion. In case one of the PCs is mouthing off to the riders or otherwise being disrespectful. That would definitely garner some setbacks. Alternatively, if they show up with imperial uniforms, that would make the check hard, but if they showed up in street clothes, that would probably be an average check.

Why would wearing imperial uniforms make the check hard vs. adding say 2 setback dice (assuming the PCs tried to convince them that they weren't really imperials as part of the conversation)?

This seems like a good example of circumstances specific to the PCs and the approach.

The GM decides that due to the geopolitical climate any neutral outsider approaching the tribe for help has a Average check. If actual imperials approch the tribe for an alliance, the check would be Daunting or Impossible. [these are the macro level difficulty]

The PCs, however, are not really imperials so because they are wearing imperial uniform disguises when they were caught by the beastroders, this is a complication.

It really wouldn't matter too much if the GM increases difficulty or adds setbacks except for the many Talents that remove setbacks. I think you have to give that Lando type character the chance to shine by rolling his high Charm and removing the two setbacks from the imperial uniforms by his Talents.

Oscargrover covered it - more or less my understanding. Difficulty is how hard the problem itself is, boost/setback come from additional factors which affect but are not part of the problem per se. So disarming a bomb is hard. The fact that you're trying to do it whilst bumbing around in the back of a speeder doesn't make the bomb harder to disarm, but affects how hard it should be to succeed, hence a setback die applies.

It's similar with shooting, which is fairly proscriptively defined as it's part of the combat rules. Picking up a setback die from enemy fire doesn't make the shot itself harder - the range and size of target define that - but it does pin you down and make it harder to aim, so you take a setback die. Likewise, wearing stormtrooper armour won't make you harder to hit; you're still a target of the same size and wearing conspicuous white plate - so defense is a setback, not a difficulty upgrade. Finally, deliberately taking an aimed shot helps but doesn't magically make the target bigger or closer, so it's a boost die.

It does, I have to say, matter whether you use setback or difficulty upgrades. Not so much for initial games, but very early on most characters can get talents which remove setback dice on checks within their fields of expertise - if you're forever using challenge dice, these skills are pointless.

Here's the deal with the Beast Riders and difficulties.

The PCs start with Average Difficulty against the Beast Riders for social checks. "Average Difficulty" here means that the Riders are ambivalent to the PCs and the Rebellion...they're not sure how things are gonna shake out, but they're willing to listen. However, if a character was rude to the Beast Riders at this point, the Riders would tend not to like that character (or group of characters), and so that PC would get a setback die (or maybe 2) to further social interactions.

However, if a character showed up in Stormtrooper armor, the Beast Riders would take this to mean he's with the EMPIRE...and this means a base Hard Difficulty to social interactions because the Beast Riders hate the Empire for what they've done to Onderon.

Stormtrooper armor doesn't represent a setback here, because it's all about the perception and point-of-view of your intended target. These are "people" that the PCs are dealing with, after all. If they think you're Imperial, they are already predisposed not to listen to you, and that means it's just plain harder to get them to listen.

If, later, you can convince the Beast Riders to align themselves with the Rebellion, then you may have just secured Easy Negotiation/Charm checks with them in the future for the Rebel Alliance. But if you shun them and start a war with them, they might just as easily treat the Rebellion with the same disdain as they do the Empire, imposing a Hard Difficulty on any further negotiations.