I and my GF is GMs for some players and to make the players feel that they can affect the game by give their ideas and one of those players said that they would like to join the ranks of the Space Marines.

So my question to you all is: can the players join them? and if they can what kind of training do they have to go through?

You definitely can't do so in the scope of the game.

In the universe, the answer is slightly more complex... there's only a very small percentage of people capable of accepting the implants and treatments that make up a space marine and the chance of surviving the procedure becomes lower and lower the older you get, with ideal starting age being somewhere around 10 or 12.

Most Chapters recruit before the age of 16 (the younger the better) bu it is possible though extremely difficult to recruit up until 21/22 years old (Terran standard). It used to be possile to induct any age but required a living Primarch to do so (one but not the only reson thier are so many Ultramarines Successor Chapters). It isn't in the rules yet, but should be possible in the distant future after FFG release Death Watch which should be cross compatible.

It's also worth noting that there are no Marine Chapters based in the Calixis Sector (where most games are based). However, fleet based Chapters such as the Black Templars (who helped conquor the Sector during Angevin's Crusade) occasionally pass through and Puritan Ordo Xenos Inquisitors make use of Death Watch kill teams (some of whom may be amenable to recruiting). So, there are ways fo the young scion to be noticed and tapped up.

If you choose to allow this, I'd make it clear it's not going to happen for several years (OOG time) when FFG publish DW (unless you write your own rules in the interim) and impose some severe penalties for the youth of the Acolyte (which could make for some interesting RP). It should also be a quest (metagame) to find a suitable patron in the Marines and another to impress them sufficiently to induct them. A which point the character retires for a decade as they undergo surgery and training.

A more feasible way to fudge it would be to reward the player when their PC dies or retires with a Marine Character as their next PC (if hey've been sufficiently immpressive and worked towards it). Possibbly a young son or nephew of the PC.

MDMann said:

Sorry but 22 is around the latest they can recieve their last Implant (in fact that sounds far too late but I will asume you have a source for it) recruitment must take place alot younger than that and I think even 12 is pushing it for too late. Most Marine recruits are taken under the age of 10. I cant remember exactly but it is at least 6 years before the Implants are in and even then their full training is not finished.

Also the primachs didn't change the recruiting age, in Decent of Angels there is humans in the Dark Angels legion because they were to old when Caliban was discovered to recieve training but they had helped the Lion in his quest to rid the beasts of chaos from Caliban and so were kept in command positions where thier minds would be more important than their fighting ability. When some of the Primarchs were discovered some of the people on the cusp of acceptability were chosen even though the chance of succsess was lower and only if they were exceptional.

Kaihlik

First, let me express my personal opinion: I don't know why people are so wanting to play space marines, the only reasons I can think of is to just playing one because "its cool" and/or to be overpowered, space marines are not meant to be played in dark heresy, this game is about acolytes, "normal" humans working for the inquisition.

As been said before, a grown man can not become a space marine, they have to be recruited at a very young age and would stay with their chapter, the only exception to this being the deathwatch, but even they return to their original chapters after a mission or their service have ended.

Another thing people dosnt seem to consider is roleplaying a space marine, personally this seem like a very boring thing to me, if the group (against all ods) had a space marine, he would be there to complete a mission, and that mission alone and would not stay with the group after that. Also, space marines are made for war, not much else and I really cannot see any fun in roleplaying that, space marines are good at making things dead, thats it.

Also, space marines are rare, very very rare, most people go through their lives without even seeing a single one, they may have heard of em but chances are they have never seen one and never will.

Just a collection of my thoughts on the subject...hope this isnt taken the wrong way, I'm just tired of hearing about space marines and I'm glad that Dark Heresy and the upcoming Rogue Trader is about humans, theres enough games out there with space marines in em, it's about time the other races got a chance to shine.

Cryxx

Well what about the Sisters of Battle? They are slighty augumentated just like Space Marines so you possibly could make a good social background with this. Since they represent they Ecclesiachy they might be males incorporated with the Adeptas Soritas, not just as priests or Inquistion but as warriors of their army, even though they mainly consist of females, I look at this question two ways, one make up the Career Path yourself or incorparate it with an already exisiting one, simple. Well what doya think? A good plan?

Penman101 said:

" A suspicious mind is a healthy mind"

Sorry the Adepta Sororitas are not Augemented as a standrd proceduere, though a good many of there Vetrans do recive (in the older Fluff) Com Implants Bio-Engineered Gills, Eye Protect and Infa-Vision Surgery. but thease where avalible to all Heros back in the day, their coolness comes from a lifetime of Training (almost always from Childhood) and being the Orphan or Suerenderd Daughters of a long line of Vetran Military Elites and Officers. not being Biogeneticaly Enhanced Uber-men.

Actually its not possible as the Ecclesiarchy are forbidden to have men at arm according to the degree passive. The use technicallity the the Sororitas are woman to get around this which is only really tolerated because the sisters are unlikely to be corrupted by power due to their fanatical nature. So the Ecclesiarchy are strictly forbidden from having men in thier armies. (as as side note Sororitas do not recieve any implants/augmentations as standard just training and equiptment). Anyway the Sororitas is a strictly female organisation and there is absolutely no males in it whatsoever.

Also just so you know the Inquisition does not have access to make tech to make them as tough and as strong as marines because the way to do that requires you to go through much more complicated and painful procedures. You either have to get massive bionic augmentation of the best level which is far to obvious for most Inquisitors and requires them to have a huge amount of goodwill with the Adpetus Mechanicum and still you would not end up like a marine. Or you go through massive muscle implants which would leave you looking like some horrible monster and still nowhere like a marine, again not appropriate. The only way to have abilities like a marine would be to go through a similar process at a young age (like the Assassins do). If it was something the Imperium could do they would but for the most part they cant.

I also don't get the appeal of Marines in DH, they just dont fit. They might make interesting NPC's but as players they are totally useless because they restrict things so much. Power armour I can understand if you find a good way of getting it but unless the game is for a group of Marines then they just dont really work. Marines dont even appear in the majority of warzones there just isn't enough of them around and the Calixis sector is so far out of the way that is of little interest to most marine chapters.

Kaihlik

Folks want a "Tank Class", their are alredy three (two in the Main Rules and one in IHB) but they still want an Uber-Tank, also I think the Space Marine is an Iconic part of 40K and to a lot of people a Human setting 40K RPG without them just seams not quite right, if it was an Eldar Game they would want Aspect Warriors and Haraquins.

Drop Bear said:

Nail. Head. Whack!

Like it or not, the Spess Mehreenss are the poster child of 40k. Since DH is the only officially 40k rpg to date, it has become the default 40k rpg and not just a game about the Inquisition. If someone wants to play a game set in the world of 40k, then they will first look to Dark Heresy for this. Since most fans of 40k have experienced the setting primarily in video game or war game format, their experiences with the more subtle aspects of the setting are quite lacking and, to them, the quintessential 40k experience would be to play a Spess Mehreen. Heck, even the bulk of BL books seems to focus on the them especially as of late with the whole Horus Heresy series.

Most of the time, I don't think it's because of a need to play an uber tank, it's simply the desire to play quintessential 40k character.

Is it sad that I find the best DH players are the ones who have very limited knowledge or contact with the 40k setting prior to Dark Heresy?

Space Marines can make some very interesting characters if played right. Has anyone out there read Space Marine by Ian Watson? It's the first novel GW ever published and, in my humble opinion (as the opinions of every person I've met who has read the novel) the apex of Space Marine descriptions.

What most people don't write about (much to the detriment of those who read Black Library novels for reasons other than looking for a good hack'n'slash novel) is how the homeworld of a Space Marine affects the marine as much, if not more so, than the chapter they come from. For example, a Space Marine from Fenris is going to have a much different code of honors, code of conduct, and set of beliefs than a marine from Necromunda (ex. the ones from Fenris will see technology as some kind of magick, while the ones from Necromunda will see technology for what it is and will be able to adapt to different technology with greater ease than those from Fenris).

There's also the wee issue (which only Graham McNeil hints at now adays, though his writings are a pale thing, but that's besides the poitn) that Space Marines are just an artificially created sub-species of humans. They are still human for all intents and purposes. Therefore they will hit moral quandries like the rest of us (for example, the Tyranids re-engineer life for their own purposes, which the Imperium sees as vile, yet the Imperium re-engineers life just as much if not more in the form of Servitors, Space Marines, Navigators, etc.; before you ask the solution the Space Marine in question who thought of this came up with is that "The Emperor blesses the biological constructs of the Imperium, therefore they are different" and he goes on to say that he "will punish himself for submitting to the sin of relativity".). The whole point of this being that marines have human minds, despite their superhuman bodies, and thus suffer from mental human weaknesses.

Anyways, I have to agree with what has been posted before though. Space Marines fit poorly in a setting that involves investigation. Of course, if you're going for a mission that would involve pure kill-power, then they'd be right at home. Truth be known, I'd be half-tempted to let the player go for it and be a Space Marine co-opted into the Inquisition's service. Stranger things have happened. By being a Space Marine though, he has a number of disadvantages that would make for a truly unique game:

1. Said Space Marine will be very easy to spot, even out of armor. Therefore they won't be able to get much play action besides "guarding our safehouse".

2. Space Marines do not have to worry about this little thing like morality. Therefore, when fighting, they wouldn't be bothered by gunning down a whole host of civilians just to kill one heretic or firebombing a hospital to root out traitors. This will cause unease among your players and, should they just stand by and let Mr. SM run amok, is a perfect place to add corruption points en mass. Think "The Operative" from Firefly when going in this direction.

3. A Space Marine would only be called in to deal with something *VERY* dangerous, as in Terminus level.

4. A Space Marine's presence would cause all manner of unpredictable effects among the citizens of whatever world. Suddenly a good portion of the planet would be paying very large amounts of attention to the Ecclesiarchy, there'd be Witch Hunts going on, your group would be mobbed as people risk life and limb to simply touch said Space Marine, etc. Basically, their apperance will do as much to upset the stability of a world as the appearance of the Tyrant Star. The only difference is that they'd upset it in a way that would be more... "pleasing" to the Imperium (i.e. the people going to church more, paying their tithes with greater interest, and rooting out anybody who doesn't fit into their dystopian soceity)

5. With the presence of a Space Marine on a planet, any heretics, traitors, or the like would suddenly come out of the woodwork in great fear. They'd all be striking at your acolytes seeing as how killing said Space Marine would be something that would make the group and their leader lauded among the heretic world for years to come. They'd also view the deaths of them and their entire group as a worthy price for taking out one of the Emperor's Angels of Death and thereby would willing do things like strap themselves with bombs and go out Suicide Bomber-style along with other unconventional tactics that tend not to leave any survivors on either side.

Let your player know about all this and that he'd be basically putting everybody else in mortal danger should he roll a marine. Let him know that he'd be seeing very little action and, when he did see it, there'd be all manner of hell breaking loose from his revealing. If he still wants to play... well... that's up to you. You and your girlfriend can always go with a call of "Do you have *ANY* idea how much work I'd have to do if you were a Space Marine?" and read off everything that I just wrote (by the way, this is the *CONDENSED* version of things... Space Marines are more complicated than people would think. Don't forget that they're essentially children soldiers who are taught to kill everything that isn't a battle brother in sight and think about it later. And that's on top of little quirks, like how all the Imperial Fists are sadomasochists and the like).

As mentioned before, the Adepta Soriritas are all women seeing as how after Gregor Vandire they no longer allow men to serve the Ecclesiarchy, though in times of great peril they may gather together Fraetis Militia, which are basically a bunch of untrained peasant religious fanatics given guns and pointed at the enemy, though there are *VERY* strict rules about gathering these guys together (I believe it must be approved by another militant branch of the Imperium, such as Imperial Guard, Navy, or something along those lines. Of course, the Inquisition is allowed to order the formation seeing as how they're the Inquisition).

The muscle implants and the like I can tell you right now as a biologist can make you as strong as a Space Marine, but there's the whole Black Carapace. In addition, there are the other implants, like the third lung that acts as an additional filter, the second heart, that infamous Black Carapace that everybody seems to forget exists, the extra layer of stomach/liver/kidney that allow them to be lithophagic (rock eaters) if necessary, etc. etc.

It should be noted that both Gregor Vandire and the Emperor were both successful in creating a para-Space Marine force. Vandire's troops were all augmented with all manner of different biological implants, mechanical devices, etc. The Emperor allowed the Primarchs' followers who weren't young enough to be made into Space Marines to be surgically modified so that they were just as strong. In both cases though, they weren't quite marines seeing as how they lacked the geneseed.

Think of geneseed as a gigantic gland (like adrenal glands), which constantly excretes the DNA of the Primarchs (excess DNA that the Emperor had lying around when said Primarchs disappeared). It also works to absorb the DNA of previous/current bearers of it, thereby creating a genetic cocktail of sorts. This allows the marine to be a demi-Primarch and thereby inherit some of their abilities, including a strong warp connection which makes their physical bodies transcend the physical.

Since there are no more Primarchs with viable DNA (they're either dead, locked in stasis, on death's door, or so horribly daemonically mutated that their DNA becomes unharvestable seeing as how it's infused with the stuff of the warp and no longer of this earthly plane), there won't be any "new" Space Marine lines per say. Lines being the keyword here, there's plenty of diversity with individuals, homeworlds, and various other chapter beliefs to allow new "types" of marines to emerge.

Anyway, I think I've posted more than enough. Hope this helps!

And Graver... it's because of the fact that recent changes in BL (with the incompatence and shady business practice of Nick Kyme AKA Poster-child for Napolean Complex and Lindsay Priestly, who ironicly got the job after sleeping with/marrying this guy whose name is Rick Priestly who just happens to be one of the higher-ups of GW) and GW (like their new CEO who ran a successful shoe subsidiary into the ground or their Board of Directors who are equal failures that had been fired from previous companies for losing money on bad trades, mismanaging company resources, or the like) things have changed from the universe we once knew/loved.

Suffice to say, they're more interested in profit and thus devot more resources to building up marines who for some reason most people just getting into Tabletop play. This build-up of marines causes more interest in them, causing their sales to go up more, etc. etc. ad infinum to the point where the Dark Eldar have not seen a new codex (or models) since Second-Edition days, while everyone else has had several major updates and new lines of models. Anyway, enough ranting from this old scoundrel. Don't want to bore you all with my stories of "how things have changed" and the like.

In my opinion, looking within the Core ameditities and mechanically, I would say no. Here is my opinion. Starting or generating an Acolyte from the first rank and with starting career path usually leaves the Acolyte with average abilities characterisitcs. Rolling the 2d10 and adding the home world modifier gives the player at the most "superior" benchmarks for their abilities. When I read the excerpt from the Adeptus Astartes, I imagined "magnificent or heroic" strength, weapon skill, and ballisitics. Their are some flaws to this answer that I would like to share. 1) Adeptus Astartes are augmented with cybernetics which would add bonuses to abilities. 2) Starting wealth maybe too low to afford cybernetics if the Astartes were to pay for the procedure, not to mention that the Ordos Malleus should fit the bill for this procedure. Over all in my opinion starting characters are generally too weak to play as space marnines lest the GM starts the Acolyte out with more than ample throne and gelt and starts them at a rank higher than starting. If you ask me though I want to take this game serious, unlike other rpgs where sometimes I used to come up with a certain level to start from and say go ahead and make your characters, this made the game played out with overpowered characters and accomplisments that had yet to be earned. I want to take DH with the enthusiasm of learning a new game and making the player earn their rank starting from the begining.

no your players cannot BECOME space marines but that dosen't stop u from coming up with ideas of your players BEING space marines from the start. it is totally possible (I think) to assign a Death Watchmen or Grey Knight to an alcolyte cell. Of course you would have to come up with a new carrer path and make up skills, talents, and traits that would suit an astartes. U limit the number of space marines in a cell cuz evreyone knpws they can piledrive through almost anything

Penman101 said:

It is illegal for the Ecclesiarchy to have a standing army of men, quite explicitly stated in fact. That is why they have sororitas instead, because they don't count as "men" according to the Imperial Law. Sororitas do not undergo augmentation like Astartes do either, its pure faith and workout that make them hard, not augmetics...

MDMann said:

While you are correct that there are no SM Chapters based in the Calixis, the Dark Angels recruit from a variety of worlds (as Caliban was destroyed), and it should be noted that Deathwatch teams are recruited from active SM Chapters, hence the origin colors on the left shoulder pauldron. In fact, the feral world assassin in my game is from a world where the "Star Gods" regularly visit (once per generational turn).

In regard to Sisters of Battle (my favorite tabletop army!), the Sisters recruit "from the bounty of the Emperor". That is to say, they recruit where fervor for the Emperor is high (typically Shrine Worlds, Schola Progenium and the like), with an emphasis on faith. Also, it is my understanding that augmentation does not occur with any notable regularity, and most definitely *not* to the extent that Space Marine aspirants receive.

I did menion fleet based Marines such as the Dark Angles (arguably with The Rock) occasionally pass through.

Varnias Tybalt said:

We do know, however, from the Inquisitor game, that some inquisitors ARE space marines, and some others have marines as "bodyguards" or even functionaries.

Inquisitors are NOT the ecclesiarchy; most of them are drawn from it, however. The Inquisition stands apart from the Ecclesiarchy. Much like the modern FBI stands apart from the Courts, even tho both are "department of justice" agencies.

aramis said:

I wasnt talking about the Inquisition, but about the Adepta Sororitas. Adepta Sororitas is the militant arm of the Ecclesiarchy and the ONLY reason that militant arm is allowed to exist is because all Sororitas are women. If you started to introduce male sororitas it would be a breach of an explicitly stated Imperial Law, which makes the concept of male Battle sisters a bit hard to explain with the canon material...

I wasnt talking about the Inquisition, but about the Adepta Sororitas. Adepta Sororitas is the militant arm of the Ecclesiarchy and the ONLY reason that militant arm is allowed to exist is because all Sororitas are women. If you started to introduce male sororitas it would be a breach of an explicitly stated Imperial Law, which makes the concept of male Battle sisters a bit hard to explain with the canon material.

Its not hard, as long as you dont call them a sister of battle. They are essentially nuns with guns, so you could always make a "Paladin" class, who just uses the Sororitas class, with a different name.

Varius said:

Provided that career paths in Dark Heresy were simply a set of Classes and nothing more. Of course, a GM's rule is law, but generally the career paths are not just about skills and talents, they shape the PC in more ways than that, and also have somewhat control over the characters background an affiliations with different power groups.

Hakazu said:

You won't be able to slide someone into a Space Marine chapter. Have the player roll up a new character using the Adeptus Astartes pdf found at www.darkreign40k.com .

Starting out along that career path, a starting "Marine" (Neophyte) isn't going to be terribly impressive. However, once the implants are activated, then it gets pretty nice.