I think they will release one because there is a demand of it.

There's more demand for them to make the Vigil then there is for them to make a ISD.

I don't know if we can make any assertions about demand based on a forum other than there are people definitely for and against the ISD.

There is a danger in too many threads like these, in that there will be a hardening in the participants who all have said the same thing over and over, both sides becoming more dogmatic and offering more heated responses.

The worst part is that people tend to deal with conflicting opinions with derision. The ISD discussion is powered by conjecture so, intrinsically, it's pretty hard to be wrong.

How to get a thread to hit triple digits: make polarizing comments about the inclusion of Star Destroyers.

Dingo, you almost make the arguement for not having them in the game.. that part about them not doing anything during the dogfights.... spot on my friend..

They are there to let the fighters do the small battle, and in the scenario with the transport, as an 'off mat' experience.. which I feel is the perfect way to represent them.. "off camera" is the best way..

I really think the people who want a scaled-down Star Destroyer in this game are doing a major disservice to the design.

First of all, it's a MASSIVE warship. The ship is designed, in filmatic terms, to look like an enormous city in space. It's got thousands of tiny little lights representing windows, and according to the fluff it has over 31,000 crew. The vessel is 1.606 kilometers long, and has a volume of at least a 1,000,000 cubic meters, likely more (I'm guestimating).

The vessel also apparently has many HUNDREDS of guns, if you go by the weapon densities seen in the original trilogy. I can't remember where I put the analysis I did on this, but last time I checked the Star Destroyer has several scenes where a small section of the hull had at least 6 or 7 lasers on it (mostly from the Empire Strikes Back scene where the Falcon attacks the Star Destroyer). Stretching it out over the entire length of the trench yielded a result of over 200, based on the area of the section seen in the film, with a somewhat lower density on the hull surface.

According to the fluff, this ship is designed to be able to reduce a world to a lake of molten rock in a matter of hours. Considering the light turbolasers were able to completely vaporize asteroids that approached upwards of 40 meters in a single shot, and even passed through slightly smaller rocks, this is hardly surprising.

The shields are also extremely powerful. I know, I know, one of the ships in TESB had its conning tower destroyed by an asteroid. But in a previous scene you can see an asteroid which was traveling at extreme speed impact the ship with nary a scratch. The entire event was absorbed by the shields and armor. And if you think about it, the shields and armor need to be at least as strong as the weaponry in order to maintain combat for any length of time with other warships.

Finally, its fighter compliment . . . do I really need to state the obvious that most of us would have to pool our fighter reserves with at least ten other people to equal the number of fighters seen on this ship?

Now, that being said, compare it to the Corellian Corvette:

It's a ship which is 160 meters long (roughly 1/10 the length and 1/100 the volume). It has two turbolasers and four laser cannons. It has a crew of, at most, 165 people. No fighters, light-duty capital shields (certainly around the same "hardness" as the asteroid the ISD vaporized in TESB).

There is no comparison between these two.

So I can't comprehend why you would *want* to put an ISD in this game, besides cool-factor.

And yes, it is a cool ship. I love it!! I have Star Destroyer wallpaper on my work computer and a model of one on my shelves. I plan on getting one of those massive resin kits when I can afford it, because I want a gargantuan 38" model of it.

Would I want it in X-wing, though? No, because it would need to be reduced to a MUCH smaller shape to even fit on the table.

But why stop at just discussion? Let's look at the real problem here. With pictures! Yay!

First, here is an Epic Scale table, with all available miniatures:

That should give you a good indication of the size-relationship between the table and the miniatures. I scaled these as closely to the actual scale of the minis as possible, but there's only so much I can do when I don't know the actual figures off the top of my head for their sizes. But you can see they're a reasonable approximation.

Now, here's a Star Destroyer in the same scale as the Corellian Corvette Huge Ship scale:

Yeesh!! Talk about a monster, eh? It's much smaller than it would be if it were in scale with the Small Scale and Large Scale miniatures, but it's still a monster of a model!! There's no possible way FFG would be willing to make a model this size. Well, maybe . . . if they wanted to go bankrupt from people not being able to afford one (the CR90 is $90 . . . I can easily see a miniature this size being over $1500). Plus, does that look like it would fit on the table? Nope. Not a chance. I doubt it could even support its own weight if it were made of resin, even hollow-cast resin. And of course, lighter models would be even less likely to be able to support their own weight. Let's just forget a model this big, okay?

Now, how about a model that's about six feet? Let's take a look:

Now THAT's much better, isn't it? Except it isn't. With a model this big, where is it going to move? It can't move forward at all. It can turn and wipe out everything on the battlefield, but that's a **** move in the extreme. Not only that, what's the different between this and a cardboard token? None. Both will sit at the edge of the battlefield and do nothing except serve as a gun platform, which isn't that fun, at least to me. And if I wanted a gun platform game, I'd play Battleship. I want a game where my minis MOVE! That's the whole purpose of a flight combat game: your ships and vehicles need to move. For the most part. Granted, there are space stations and such, but they're more of a strategic element rather than a combat element.

Let's try one more size: two and a half feet:

There we go! That looks really good! We can move around the board, with some difficulty, and even shoot! Perfect solution, right?

Well . . . no.

We're talking about scale as well. It's still going to be a monster to pay for. The volume is roughly eight or nine times that of the CR90, and the complexity much more so. It would likely be in the $500-700 range, minimum. Sure, you could save up that much, I suppose. Not all of us have that much disposable income, though. I've been saving up for a $500 Star Destroyer model for five years now. I still haven't got it. There have been too many expenses along the way that come first: doctor bills, car repairs, speeding tickets, and many other things. Not to mention all my X-wing miniatures! But cost aside, would this be a good representative to one of the Empire's signature vessels? Look at the comparison between the CR90-scaled behemoth and the "ideal" size:

Those models are right next to each other. Can you honestly say the tinier one accurately represents the presence a Star Destroyer is supposed to have? If you think so, I have some beach-front property in Arizona to sell you. It's not even a tenth of the size and scale it's supposed to be, yet I'm supposed to believe that it's going to represent a massive, mile-long warship? Please. If I wanted no scale consistency, I'd play Attack Wing.

This isn't so much of a problem with FFG producing such a miniature as it is with the people who want to play it, though. You guys who want one aren't thinking about it logically or whether it would even be *fun* to play! Furthermore, you're not showing such an iconic ship the respect it deserves. You just see a cool ship and think, "The Rebels get a big ship, and so should the Empire! And what better ship than the Star Destroyer?" But that's not smart or logical. It's just typical 10-year-old logic that bigger=better. And while I admit I've built large models of the Star Destroyer and other ships in the past, I know better than to try and game with them because I know they're ungainly and extreme-special case. I shouldn't have to explain the problems with this idea. And of course, you can shrink a Star Destroyer down, but then you have the problems I outlined above, with pictures.

It's just an all-around stupid idea . . .

All that being said, if you guys really want a Star Destroyer for this game and don't mind scale, I do have a very good paper model based on the above model I used which I'll give to you to build yourself. It's not overly complex, and as you can see it's a pretty darn good approximation of the Star Destroyer. It's about 21" long when completed.

Mostly because the ship deserves to be played and cannot be "disrespected". That entire concept is just silly. It's a fictional spaceship that has been blown up by 3 Rookie X-wings, asteroid Collisions, and Jedi yanking it from the sky. It has no pride, only a desire to actually get to finally kill some rebels and win a few fights. Moreover it would be immensley fun to play, everything FFG has made that I've played has been fun, and they're interpreatation of a Star Destoryer cannot help but be fun. Beyond that, I think you're cost anlysis is overly high as well, or at least I will think so until FFG gives a reason they aren't making one. At most I'd cost that model at $200.(Although I'd shrink it down further, and ship it in a few slide together pieces. Twice the length of the CR-90 is more than enough of a size increase for me.) I accept the fact games have to change things, and that scale will be devastatingly broken. All I ask from a SD is that it becomes the focal point of every match it's in, and can hold its own in a fight/be balanced for its point cost.

Mostly because the ship deserves to be played and cannot be "disrespected". That entire concept is just silly. It's a fictional spaceship that has been blown up by 3 Rookie X-wings, asteroid Collisions, and Jedi yanking it from the sky. It has no pride, only a desire to actually get to finally kill some rebels and win a few fights. Moreover it would be immensley fun to play, everything FFG has made that I've played has been fun, and they're interpreatation of a Star Destoryer cannot help but be fun. Beyond that, I think you're cost anlysis is overly high as well, or at least I will think so until FFG gives a reason they aren't making one. At most I'd cost that model at $200.(Although I'd shrink it down further, and ship it in a few slide together pieces. Twice the length of the CR-90 is more than enough of a size increase for me.) I accept the fact games have to change things, and that scale will be devastatingly broken. All I ask from a SD is that it becomes the focal point of every match it's in, and can hold its own in a fight/be balanced for its point cost.

So go and buy a model, come up with some rules for it and stop asking FFG to make one. It's fairly obvious that the amount of people wanting one is significantly smaller than the amount of people who don't, let alone the amount of people who are simply indifferent on the matter.

Millennium Falsehood, to just kind of put the ISD into perspective, it is the Empire's Medium Sized starship. According to all of the fluff a ship the size of the ISD is still considered a medium sized vessel, still a large one compared to other ships in the class but it does not get the Battle Cruiser or Dreadnought designation which is saved for real Battleships. The only consistent fluff I've found states it only has 60 turbolasers and 60 ion cannons although there is this mystery data that Wookipedia seems to be pulling from (I'd be happy to change my assertions but I can't seem to find a good source, anyone have it?).

As to the scaling issue, just because I'm okay with your smaller scale ship, which is still pretty large, doesn't make me unreasonable or that I'm being silly, just as your assertion that you really don't want one if it isn't big enough makes your opinion silly or unreasonable. A lot of that will be based on your personal opinion about how important scale is to you. To me my breaking point is less than about 2x the length of of the CR90. Your pictures finally let me clearly see what I've thought since the beginning in that an ISD twice the length of a CR90 will look considerably larger than the CR90 just because it takes up so much more volume.

As to the cost, I don't think we can really make any assertions of how much it would cost. Considering how much larger the CR90 is than the GR75 I am surprised how little extra the CR90 costs. And just like its firepower and balance issues, if any, we won't know until we see. Even if it is cost prohibitive FFG could always follow the forgeworld route and release higher costed premium models (and FFG has done this in the past with Dust Premium Models).

Ultimately, it doesn't really hurt anyone about talking about wanting or not wanting an ISD. This is a message board about games with around 5000 users for all of FFG games. We can't make any assertions that the majority is reflected accurately based on what people say here. So can we please stop acting like whatever side we are arguing against is silly?

I'm not sure what the issue with the third image is. It looks fine to me. Guess I'm just not that into scale. Definitely close to the size of Star Destroyers in Rogue Squadron II. <shrug>

The only consistent fluff I've found states it only has 60 turbolasers and 60 ion cannons although there is this mystery data that Wookipedia seems to be pulling from (I'd be happy to change my assertions but I can't seem to find a good source, anyone have it?).

I'm assuming you're talking about the armament section in Wookiepedia.

All of that comes from the Incredible Cross-Sections book. The book doesn't have actual gun names but they are pointed out in the picture. For example, the 3 triple medium turbolasers on Wookiepedia are the axial defense turrets in the book. I just checked it out and they all are accounted for.

Hope this helps.

It's just an all-around stupid idea . . .

I can't like this post enough. Thank you for providing both outstanding visuals and consistent logic. I agree with everything I read 100%.

Even if you are happy to ignore all of the scale issues, a ship that carries 72 TIE fighters and has over a hundred gun mounts on it is not going to be balanced against anything that you can field for 300 points. Reducing it's firepower to something that would remain balanced against 300 results in something that only resembles a Star Destroyer in shape but not in function or scale. So all you end up with is some made up piece of s%#$ that is no longer a Star Destroyer.

As I said before, since scale is not an issue for those wanting one, go out and buy a model and make up some house rules for it.

Millennium Falsehood, to just kind of put the ISD into perspective, it is the Empire's Medium Sized starship. According to all of the fluff a ship the size of the ISD is still considered a medium sized vessel, still a large one compared to other ships in the class but it does not get the Battle Cruiser or Dreadnought designation which is saved for real Battleships. The only consistent fluff I've found states it only has 60 turbolasers and 60 ion cannons although there is this mystery data that Wookipedia seems to be pulling from (I'd be happy to change my assertions but I can't seem to find a good source, anyone have it?).

As to the scaling issue, just because I'm okay with your smaller scale ship, which is still pretty large, doesn't make me unreasonable or that I'm being silly, just as your assertion that you really don't want one if it isn't big enough makes your opinion silly or unreasonable. A lot of that will be based on your personal opinion about how important scale is to you. To me my breaking point is less than about 2x the length of of the CR90. Your pictures finally let me clearly see what I've thought since the beginning in that an ISD twice the length of a CR90 will look considerably larger than the CR90 just because it takes up so much more volume.

As to the cost, I don't think we can really make any assertions of how much it would cost. Considering how much larger the CR90 is than the GR75 I am surprised how little extra the CR90 costs. And just like its firepower and balance issues, if any, we won't know until we see. Even if it is cost prohibitive FFG could always follow the forgeworld route and release higher costed premium models (and FFG has done this in the past with Dust Premium Models).

Ultimately, it doesn't really hurt anyone about talking about wanting or not wanting an ISD. This is a message board about games with around 5000 users for all of FFG games. We can't make any assertions that the majority is reflected accurately based on what people say here. So can we please stop acting like whatever side we are arguing against is silly?

You think I put together all that and didn't consider the fact that it's a medium-scale warship? ROFL! But that's a red herring. We're talking about the ISD as a ship in and of itself, not how it compares to other ships. It actually is considered a battleship in the Old Republic era, but the Imperial era came up with a new warship designation: Star Destroyer. It has nothing to do with the size or role of the vessel and everything to do with its shape. The source for the other weapons is the roleplaying games, which are considered the first source for canon in this case, as nothing of higher level canonicity has anything to say on the matter, nor does it contradict them.

Well, it is rather silly to take up so much of the board space for a ship that is not even an approximation of its actual scale. If you're going to compromise the design that much, why not go for a much smaller and still cool-looking ship?

Actually, we can. There are existing resin kits of the ship in the same size which are $500. Now, this is without assembly, painting, and packaging, all of which cost money. Of course, the cost for the model will be lower than a limited-production resin kit, but not by much, considering the cost of tooling. And FFG has to make up the cost for everything it makes and still make a profit. It has to be several hundred dollars for a model this size.

It does hurt, actually. It hurts that people would devalue a ship so much that I've come to love over the years. The amount of butchering you'd have to do to make this ship work in this game system is so high that it feels like you're making the ISD into something it's not. I mean, yeah, I want a big Imperial ship! I'd like to have a companion to the CR90 I ordered, which is why I built my Customs Corvette.

But please, not the Star Destroyer. Please. It's iconic and dearly loved, and to turn a lion into a mouse just to shoe-horn it into this game would disrespect the design.

Mostly because the ship deserves to be played and cannot be "disrespected". That entire concept is just silly. It's a fictional spaceship that has been blown up by 3 Rookie X-wings, asteroid Collisions, and Jedi yanking it from the sky. It has no pride, only a desire to actually get to finally kill some rebels and win a few fights.

Moreover it would be immensley fun to play, everything FFG has made that I've played has been fun, and they're interpreatation of a Star Destoryer cannot help but be fun.

Beyond that, I think you're cost anlysis is overly high as well, or at least I will think so until FFG gives a reason they aren't making one. At most I'd cost that model at $200.(Although I'd shrink it down further, and ship it in a few slide together pieces. Twice the length of the CR-90 is more than enough of a size increase for me.)

I accept the fact games have to change things, and that scale will be devastatingly broken. All I ask from a SD is that it becomes the focal point of every match it's in, and can hold its own in a fight/be balanced for its point cost.

If it sucks that much, then why play it? And how can a fictional spaceship that can't have "respect" have a "desire" to do anything?

Saying that is pretty much the same thing as saying, "Firecrackers are loads of fun, so a 500lb bomb must be even more fun!" Playability has limits in any game, and this one is no different. And again, I've tried gaming with miniatures that are over two feet. It's NOT FUN. They're massive, hard to move, clumsy, tend to break anything that happens to accidentally slip under them, block line-of-sight to the board, and are hard to fit things around in a finite space.

$200? Are you freaking serious?! Even an unassembled resin kit the same size is over $300! And then that slide-together idea is beyond silly at that price.

Games have to change things, but it's always for a darn good reason. You can't just drop a brand new, game-changing miniature in. It has to fit the feel and flow of the game, and a Star Destroyer would break that. Anyone who says otherwise has no idea what a Star Destroyer actually is.

ya know... nevermind.. doesn't matter...

I just can't seem to understand and justify the reasoning of people wanting these star destroyers, honestly.

"It's cool! It's iconic! The Empire Should have it and it will be fun to play!" Well, not really. The opponents of such a move have more points going for them than the proponents do. Severely breaking apparent scale and justifiable balance issues are major hurdles not easily dismissed, and it seems the proponents want to hand-wave these into existence for... what? Just to have a Star Destroyer on the table? It's not like it's going to be all-powerful. And to even remotely approach respecting the scale of the game you'd have to make it so big any degree of movement is going to risk sending it off the board. If you downscale and depower it to a degree that it is no longer a Star Destroyer, is it really a Star Destroyer?

Answer me this, pro ISD fans: Why MUST the craft be a star destroyer when other ships would cause fewer problems for scale and balance? Convince us anti-ISD'ers why a Star Destroyer must be essential for this game. Rather than whine to us about our supposed lack of imagination, give us a good argument with sound reasoning why the ISD has to be the Imperial Huge ship of choice.

It's a tough assignment I know, because you'll need more than "it's cool and we have to have it" to sustain your side of the debate. Why would it be cool? Why must a Star Destroyer be the Imperial Huge ship over a Lancer Frigate, or an Assassin Corvette? Please, tell us.

I'd love to have a foot long Fantasy Flight Star Destroyer model. Really! The GR-75 is incredible and I have every belief that the CR90, when it is in hand, will be one of the most beautiful starship representations that I have purchased. But I have no desire to make that Star Destroyer a gameplay model in X-Wing. Give us something equally beautiful but far more obscure and of need of reminding... like the Victory-II frigate!

I really think the people who want a scaled-down Star Destroyer in this game are doing a major disservice to the design.

Let's try one more size: two and a half feet:

There we go! That looks really good! We can move around the board, with some difficulty, and even shoot! Perfect solution, right?

Well . . . no.

It's just an all-around stupid idea . . .

Thank you!

Basically my topic was intended for those who want a star destroyer and to see if they would be happy with one about that big.

That's it!

That's all!

Simple.

Though not what you meant, I feel putting up this topic was all-around monumentally stupid idea.

Let's try one more size: two and a half feet:

There we go! That looks really good! We can move around the board, with some difficulty, and even shoot! Perfect solution, right?

Well . . . no.

We're talking about scale as well. It's still going to be a monster to pay for. The volume is roughly eight or nine times that of the CR90, and the complexity much more so. It would likely be in the $500-700 range, minimum. Sure, you could save up that much, I suppose. Not all of us have that much disposable income, though. I've been saving up for a $500 Star Destroyer model for five years now. I still haven't got it. There have been too many expenses along the way that come first: doctor bills, car repairs, speeding tickets, and many other things. Not to mention all my X-wing miniatures! But cost aside, would this be a good representative to one of the Empire's signature vessels? Look at the comparison between the CR90-scaled behemoth and the "ideal" size:

I do love this picture. It sums up the argument perfectly.

A 2.5 foot Star Destroyer, at a scale reduced by an order of magnitude over the Corvette, essentially unplayable even on an Epic size table. It wouldn't even be able to turn around to face another direction without potentially going off the board.

So essentially what we'd have would be an expensive piece of scenery. One which - when sat in the centre of the board - can shoot at everything on the table and wipe things out with a single manuever.

How expensive? I'd estimate that a model that size would be at least six times as expensive as the Corvette, once you'd taken into account the size of the model and the increase in production, shipping and packaging costs. That's a conservative estimate.

And yes, it still looks far too small to represent a Star Destroyer.

Kudos Millennium Falsehood. I don't think anything else needs to be said on the matter.

but... but.... I want it to happen, so I'm gonna hold my breath until it does!

Dearly beloved,

We are gathered here today for the funeral of dojimaster, who tragically passed away whilst holding his breath waiting for a Star Destroyer model.

A while back some fellow make a 3d card board 4-6 foot long star destroyer. I think he used it more as a back drop. He posted pictures here and on BGG. But that time people were falling all over themselves telling him how cool, awesome, great, how everyone want's to play at his house...

I have a feeling that if FFG comes out with ANYTHING reasonably affordable that fits nicely into the game some will buy it, some will not (like some did not buy the transport). Some will like it and some won't. It is after all a game...

I just happens to be a very enjoyable game with devoted fans representing a universe with even more devoted fans and each with our own ideas of what is good and best. Some are happy to play, some find other aspects also enjoyable whether the in and outs of the rules, mentoring new players, the cool figures, sometimes just making their voice heard above others then some are polite and some... not so much,

Something for everyone.

Have fun...

P.S. Here is an interesting comment on the size comparison of the YT-1300 to the transport.

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/105195-transport-blues/?p=1068221

But seriously, I do think FFG need to think about a new game design for capital ships and fleet maneuvers where the Star Destroyer can make it's debut properly, just not in the dogfighting game we all love.

When I saw Episode 4 for the first time and the Tantive IV came swooping in overhead with laser shots flying back and forth, I thought "this looks good, space battles right from the start". Then the Star Destroyer came into shot, and kept coming, and coming, and coming. WHOA, THAT THING'S HUGE!!

It's never going to show up in a dogfighting game. Just accept it.

The only consistent fluff I've found states it only has 60 turbolasers and 60 ion cannons although there is this mystery data that Wookipedia seems to be pulling from (I'd be happy to change my assertions but I can't seem to find a good source, anyone have it?).

I'm assuming you're talking about the armament section in Wookiepedia.

All of that comes from the Incredible Cross-Sections book. The book doesn't have actual gun names but they are pointed out in the picture. For example, the 3 triple medium turbolasers on Wookiepedia are the axial defense turrets in the book. I just checked it out and they all are accounted for.

Hope this helps.

I just took a look at my own and it appears that the Wookipedia article is a an amalgamation of the Essential Guide and Incredible Cross Sections. Probably should be changed.

Even if you are happy to ignore all of the scale issues, a ship that carries 72 TIE fighters and has over a hundred gun mounts on it is not going to be balanced against anything that you can field for 300 points. Reducing it's firepower to something that would remain balanced against 300 results in something that only resembles a Star Destroyer in shape but not in function or scale. So all you end up with is some made up piece of s%#$ that is no longer a Star Destroyer.

Exactly. I would much prefer FFG to create a model for an Imperial large ship that fits in with the current scale and power of the Rebel Transport and Corellian Corvette than shrink ray a Star Destroyer until they can shoehorn it into a reasonable budget and onto a game table.

Rebel Transport / BFF-1 Bulk Freighter

Tantive IV / Vigil

Done!

After looking at the size comparisons for the Star Destroyer above, I'm seriously doubting that even a Nebulon B Frigate would be doable. Anything more than 2 feet long would be really be pushing the boundaries of playability.

I wouldn't say no to a starfield gaming mat with a Star Destroyer printed on it, though.

Actually screw the ISD, I found the next expansion for Xwing. Dont worry about the scale just use your imagination!