Feel free to use this thread for all debates about whether the prequels sucked or not.

We had a clock on our wall when I was a boy. Instead of numbers it had Roman numerals. Since I knew how to recognize numbers I to XII it soon became apparent that something was wrong with the first Star Wars movie as it was Episode IV. When I was told that it was the first movie, and it was the fourth episode, I had a very simple question: "where are Episodes I, II and III?"

Many are Star Wars fan, young and old, wanted to know when Lucas would do the other episodes and excitement built as rumors spoke of Episode I The Phantom Menace. I went to the cinema and enjoyed the whole movie, as I did the movies that followed. Jar Jar Binks being an annoying SOB didn't ruin it for me, and neither did the nagging feeling that a few minor, trivial things seemed wrong:

"Luke, you must go to the Dagobah system. There you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me."

Obi Wan was apprenticed to Qui-Gon.

"No. There is another."

Obi-Wan should have known this since he was present at the twins birth.

Those are just what I remember off the top of my head, but I'm sure there are a few other things I've noticed but can't remember right now. But the biggest annoyance, the thing that bothered me the most was actually in the way they ended Return of the Jedi by removing the original Darth Vader actor.

I love all six movies, while acknowledging that the original trilogy is and always will be the best. It saddens me that a generation might well grow up without the magic those films had...

Imagine the: "Luke I am your father" scene from Empire Strikes Back.

First time I saw that my response was something like: "WHAT!? You're his dad and you smacked him with flying debris and chopped his hand off! Wait a minute...you're his dad?"

Now youngsters will just go "yeah so what I knew that since Episode III."

Am I upset that they made the prequels?

No way! But the prequels didn't ruin the original movies for me. I knew who Anakin was and what he'd become. But if I was a child growing up now, I would feel robbed of the experience that grown up me has now.

What does bother me, more than the prequel bashing which I can at least understand, are those tearing apart the sequel trilogy before filming has even started. Based on nothing but the cast and a few bits of rumored/leaked/made up information. One of the reasons I was excited for the sequels was because the mystery is back. I don't know what happens next and, having never read any EU, nothing can be spoiled for me.

It does sadden me a little that "fans" seem to spend more time complaining than actually just enjoying.

It could be worse. Romulan might fly into a black hole, go back in time and make complete nonsense everything ever made. I love JJ Adams Star Trek movies, but why did he have to completely alter Star Trek history?

why did he have to completely alter Star Trek history?

My guess is that Star Trek's history is much more expansive than Star Wars. Star Trek had 10 movies before Abrams' reboot, along with 5 live-action TV series (most of which ran for over 5 years) and at this point probably over 700 published books. That is a much larger set of base canon than Star Wars (all TV shows and movies would be the equivalent of Star Wars' top-tier canon, i.e. the OT, PT, TCW and now Rebels) and an even more immense EU than Star Wars.

Now my understanding is that what is and is not "top tier" canon in Star Trek operates much like Star Wars: Gene Roddenberry had say on what was top-level canon, and that included all the shows and movies (even if he did not like some of the movies, which implies he did not have final say over canonicity unlike George Lucas).

So the long and the short of it was, there was a lot of Star Trek there. The official, pre-Reboot stuff spans from the 2100s (Enterprise) to the 2300s (Voyager). That's a lot of material to work around, and possibly a dearth of ideas of where new films could fit inside the existing canon timeline, without disrupting things set later or contradicting existing information set earlier. That's the trouble with timelines: they start to constrain a lot, especially if your basic conceit (media revolving around Starfleet) generally stays the same.

And, of course, there's nothing that draws fans in like reimagining major characters into new roles, i.e. an Obi-Wan who was still a student and a young Jedi, not a zen old master, and a Kirk who was quite different from the Kirk everyone knew from TV and film.

I can understand why you came to this conclusion, but I was 12 when The Phantom Menace came out , and just as much as a sci-fi adventure fan then as when I first saw the OT. I acknowledge that the OT was not perfect. And I've tried to find good in the PT. I just honestly don't think they're good movies.

And you know what? It's cool that you like them. They're just not for me.

You... I like you Thank you for being civil in all of this and I apologize if my response came off as brash. It was not intended to and I realized it could be misconstrued as such after re-reading it.

They're just not good. I understand how people can like aspects of the movies that doesn't make the them good movies though. I understand that some folks got a lot out of the world building aspect as well. I'll still argue that this does not make a good movie. I've never had to close my eyes in a movie theater before because I was actually embarrassed for the actors who had to deliver those lines, until The Phantom Menace.

Movie making is a collaborative process, which means that everyone involved has to pull their weight or the whole thing goes down in flames. Here was a movie with great music, sound effects, costumes (although not to my taste), and CGI, yet every time certain characters spoke, or even appeared, I physically cringed.

No one can argue the acting was good or that the script lent itself to good performances. I can't tell you how many shots in that movie are static. The camera never moves. How many times do I need to see the Jedi SITTING DOWN IN A CIRCLE TALKING. It's a movie. Moving pictures.

Look, I love a lot of bad movies for different reasons. I don't defend them though. Hell, I can't turn away from a TV with a supernatural teen soap opera running. I'm not going to tell you it's good TV though. Enjoying something doesn't make it good. As proof, I'd like to direct your attention to the deep fried Twinkie.

I really hated how lightsaber fights turned into parkour kung fu matches versus the OT fights which alternated between fencing and hammering each other with broadsword-style blows. I think the fights in TPH stayed kind of true to the old-school, and then AotC threw that out the window. Especially with Yoda, but virtually everyone was an offender, and that continued into TCW (which if viewed from the lens of a Republic propaganda piece, makes more sense portraying their military leadership as high-flying larger-than-life heroes for morale purposes).

I mean I see how it makes sense, using the Force, for Jedi to more ably fight in 3 dimensions when most of their foes cannot do that. It's an advantage they would be stupid not to exploit. Just, after all the EU I read in the 90s before the PT came out, lightsaber fighting was never once described like it was portrayed especially in Ep II/III (and no I don't care that it's no longer canon, that's besides the point).

I had read or seen somewhere, Lucas wanted to kick the duels up a notch in the PT to portray the higher level of skill that the Jedi had at that point. Whether there is any truth to that who knows.

Yeah, that was in one of the webisodes when they were making TPM. Since you weren't seeing old men, rookies and cripples fighting with lightsabers as you did in the original films, he figured he could show the jedi in their full flower and at the peak of their abilities. The fight between Darth Maul and Obi-Wan is an example of what a "real" lightsaber duel could/should/would look like.

Or so I imagine that was Lucas' thinking.

I really hated how lightsaber fights turned into parkour kung fu matches versus the OT fights which alternated between fencing and hammering each other with broadsword-style blows. I think the fights in TPH stayed kind of true to the old-school, and then AotC threw that out the window. Especially with Yoda, but virtually everyone was an offender, and that continued into TCW (which if viewed from the lens of a Republic propaganda piece, makes more sense portraying their military leadership as high-flying larger-than-life heroes for morale purposes).

I mean I see how it makes sense, using the Force, for Jedi to more ably fight in 3 dimensions when most of their foes cannot do that. It's an advantage they would be stupid not to exploit. Just, after all the EU I read in the 90s before the PT came out, lightsaber fighting was never once described like it was portrayed especially in Ep II/III (and no I don't care that it's no longer canon, that's besides the point).

I had read or seen somewhere, Lucas wanted to kick the duels up a notch in the PT to portray the higher level of skill that the Jedi had at that point. Whether there is any truth to that who knows.

That's fair.

I know the EU still wasn't canon (i.e. had to be followed for the sake of continuity) when the PT came out, but I think it definitely created a (non-binding) precedent in a lot of peoples' minds about how lightsaber fights had gone down. Like them or not for other reasons, I think the lightsaber scenes from Phantom Menace hewed more closely to the kind of choreography in the OT.

So then Ep 2 took them in a whole new direction and, to me at least, it looked like a ridiculous graft of wuxia on a genre it didn't belong in. You had 4 movies showing a wholly different style of lightsaber fighting, you had a ton of books and graphic novels that pretty much ran with the first 3 movies' interpretation, and then you have something completely different and it just came across as really unfitting for the setting. Like GL saw Crouching Tiger in 2000 and was like "yes, that, that made money, we absolutely need that" without thinking of how it would fit with existing examples of lightsaber fights.

My issues with the prequels stem more from the fact that the story wasn't what I thought it would be. I didn't really feel Anakin fell to the Dark side rather than went there because the script said he did. I also had the impression that the Jedi fought the clone army and lost, hence the rise of the Empire. But those were my issues. I found the movies real pretty though.

I'd agree with this... Revenge of the Sith was by far the strongest of the PT but Anakin's fall/turn to the dark side was just way too weak! I'd have preferred that a series of events causing Anakin pain (either physical or emotional) & suffering that gradually turn him towards the darkside, such as the loss of friends & allies which ultimately lead him to give into his anger & hatred which Sidious could then take advantage of. The "your wife could die & I might be able to help you stop that" option just didn't cut it for me!

In general tho I still like the PT... It's still Star Wars after all!

I know I know, but...

When looking at the prequels, I think the biggest problem is George Lucas had decades of focusing on Industrial Lights and Magic instead of writing and directing and also he bought into the fact that he is George Lucas and no one would tell Caesar to remember he is mortal.

Quick Points:

The camera angles and direction in the film are all wide shots showing off the great CGI backgrounds. Most films will have an establishing shot then close in on the actors. The prequels spend entire scenes 30 feet away from the actors. Even if the actors are doing a great job you are not going to see it. It keeps at a distance from the characters and scenes. If Ani and Padme are professing there love for each other don't put the camera behind her back 20 feet away so we can see the pretty Naboo wildlife.

The scenes lack consistent mood and feeling. This is usually what are supposed to be the funny parts of the story. When Qui Gon is having a serious discussion and they keep splicing in Jar jar being stupid it destroys the mood. When Ani tells Padme she is an angel with a scene with no closeups and Jar Jar being dumb it destroys the mood.

For Example, When rescuing his mother from the sandpeople, they should have shown Anakin sneaking in without harming the sandpeople. Make it clear he is trying to do it the right way. When his mother died have a little force lightning flare over him, have his eyes begin to yellow, maybe even try to use the lightning to bring her back. Then when he opens the tent flap to kill them all it makes a strong contrast to the earlier Anakin. Maybe Padme finds him hiding in the dark with his yellowed and is a scene that they actually look at each and possibly share physical contact as she brings him back from the dark side (for the moment). Keep the dark side flare ups happening showing again that Padme tames the beast in him.

I saw on youtube examples of people cutting the dumb jokes out and pulling in on the framing of the scenes focusing on the actors and it totally changes the feel of Episode I. I just think they need a re-director's cut of Episode I by Joss Whedon or JJ Abrams.

Do you have links to those videos? I'd like to watch them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfEcaH2Db1s is called the Phantom Edit it is not the exact one I saw years ago (maybe Lucas Lawyers attacked).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GE15L3AmUjk is the short version of the Phantom Menace.

Neither is exactly like the edits I saw, but both have the general idea.

Hi people!

In general therms all episodes, not the episode 3, beginnings are a bit boring to me, but, in general therms I love the 6 movies.

Personally, episode 3 & 6 are the ones I like more, 2 & 5 the second ones and 1 & 4 the last ones. I love all new concepts that they gived to us (some of them only comprensible thanks to Clone Wars Series).

JJ Abrams (based on other movies I saw and liked from him) has my support. I really wish to see awesome movies and Rebels series too I would like a colaboration between Hans Zimmer and John Williams would be just AWESOME! (Too off-topic sorry XD)

I really enjoy all the Star Wars movies, the prequels included.

I could go into a lengthy discussion about the reasons for the enormous ammounts of nerd rage the prequels triggered, but I would rather say one thing: most people who watched the prequel movies actually loved them. Mind you, these people are not your average Star Wars fans who would fondly remember the original trilogy and discuss who shot first, or if Jabba really should be portrayed in CGI. Rather, they are kids and teenagers who had their first taste of Star Wars with the prequels.

When my son first watched Star Wars (he's now 12), I asked him which of the six movies he liked the best. Most hard core Star Wars fans wouldn't have liked the answer he gave.

As for me, I like all the movies. They all have their flaws, even the original trilogy. But they also all have their strengths and their own theme. Episode I is about innocence. It should be light and childish. I think Episode II is about that creeping dread, and we see that innocence established in Episode I slipping away.

So, you can tag a one word theme on each of the Star Wars movies. I really like that. They're basically passion plays, in many ways, meant to be theatrical. The acting should be more stage than screen.

And as for Jar Jar? I really don't mind him. At least, I can't bring myself to get angry over a CGI character. He's a bumbling fool. And he's meant to be like that. "The ability to speak does not make you intelligent."

Of course, they could have found a better actor than Hayden. He's just not very good, at least judging from the other stuff I've seen with him in it (Jumper and Vanishing on 13th Street).

So, to conclude: Star Wars is great fun. They're only movies, though. Are they great movies? In many ways, yes. In some ways, no. But people love them. All of them. Despite what youtube ranters and ragers will tell you.

-Eirik

"Luke, you must go to the Dagobah system. There you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me."

Obi Wan was apprenticed to Qui-Gon.

"No. There is another."

Obi-Wan should have known this since he was present at the twins birth.

I'll add, "You served my father during the Clone Wars".

Actually, Bail didn't have crap to do with the war except as a objector who did some humanitarian work.

The fact that R2D2 apparently knows the story behind freaking everything and doesn't say anything.

Remember when Han saying the Force was a myth and nonsense?

Chewbacca was buddies with Yoda, but doesn't say anything.

And why is Leia a princess when her father was a senator? Was her mom queen of Aldarran or something?

Mainly, I thought the PT were a bad fit to what had been either hinted at in the OT, or outright established. And makes Obi-Wan a massive lying ******.

I'll add, "You served my father during the Clone Wars".

Actually, Bail didn't have crap to do with the war except as a objector who did some humanitarian work.

Well technically, Obiwan did serve with her father during the Clone Wars.

"Luke, you must go to the Dagobah system. There you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me."

Obi Wan was apprenticed to Qui-Gon.

"No. There is another."

Obi-Wan should have known this since he was present at the twins birth.

To the first: Qui-Gon died at the end of Ep I. Then we have a timeship of, what, 8-10 years before Ep II. Likely that Yoda had something to do with Obi-Wan in that timespan, if nothing else than confirming him as a Knight or Master. Probably took up training in Qui-Gon's stead.

To the second: lol yeah man there are TONS of plot holes CREATED by actions taken in the PT. Fact is that the OT was already there, and at certain points of the PT, the creative team was either lazy or didn't know the nitty-gritty of the stuff that succeeded it chronologically. Hence we have situations like this one.

The fact that R2D2 apparently knows the story behind freaking everything and doesn't say anything.

Coulda been mind-wiped like 3PO after he was transferred to the Antilles family. idk.

Remember when Han saying the Force was a myth and nonsense?

Chewbacca was buddies with Yoda, but doesn't say anything.

Yeah lol. Dumb as hell cameo, all it did was create a plot hole. Just like putting E.T.'s species in the senate chamber during one of the scenes. The filmmakers just care about a good shot, not the effects it might have on setting consistency or larger implications.

And why is Leia a princess when her father was a senator? Was her mom queen of Aldarran or something?

Her father was both King of Alderaan and its representative in the Galactic Senate.