Hey guys, what are your combat tactics?

For me it's always good to try suppressing fire, since a mere lasgun can do it and nerf this way entire squad of soldiers. When they are pinned, the other guys just throw grenades and force the enemy to retreat and hopefully get shot on the run.

Suppression is by far the most useful action any non-combat-focues character can perform and hence we always have 1 or 2 guys suppressing our enemies as long as they are affected by it. The combat focused character though are better of with utilizing their other talents and pick targets by priority. The (overpowered) Sniper wobbles around, blasting mooks and decent threats while the melee focused chars bring them self into position to intercept and body-block to shield the party.

This is our standard strategy and ofc we utilize cover etc. but this is the boiled down approach that might change depending on situation.

Grenades and other utility stuff gets only rarely used, depending on situation though I think that is what they are meant to be. Though the moment we would get our hands on a full-auto grenade launcher I bet we would see more grenades though. In short we prefer the reliable means to kill somebody we bough with XP and the other guys mainly support the team and protect them self.

Always grapple enemy psykers. Preferably ganged up on. Deny the witch!

Always grapple enemy psykers. Preferably ganged up on. Deny the witch!

Yeah, this is actually a viable and pretty rand effective tactic, we liked it a lot too. Just keep in ind that grappling telepaths/telekines/diviners is cool; grappling pyromancers will hurt you; grappling biomancers or chaos sorcerers (especially the Slaaneshi kind) is a bad idea.

(especially the Slaaneshi kind) is a bad idea.

Ha!

(especially the Slaaneshi kind) is a bad idea.

Ha!

We had the same reaction when she cast Hellshriek while the whole Squad was busy grappling her .

Actually... grappling a psyker is dangerous in any case. At last for our interpretation on what you can do while being grappled,^^

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlpRBLkgcBo

Though the Actions you can perform while being grappled are listed in detail we had some discussion about it and it did not make sense in any case.

At last we stick with the penalty of loosing one half action though you could still perform actions that do not require free movement like speaking or thinking. And because a psykers powers work by thinking about them neither should they be impacted by more than the lost half action. So a telekinetic could still "Crush" you for example.

This makes effective ways to counter a psyker in a regular party quite difficult though we like to stick to the "Holy ****" Theme a psyker should cause, no matter if he is on your side or theirs.

Being grappled might not deny a psyker his mental abilities for your group, but it certainly should impose penalties to their focus tests, since the vast majority of their powers are subtyped as 'Concentration', which means they need to be in a duress-free state to use their standard Focus Power test. While in a grapple, they would see them receiving anywhere from -10 to -30 penalty to their Focus Power Test as they are performing a conjuration of their powers under stress (i.e. their concentration is split - they have to worry about the guy stabbing him or pummelling while trying to manifest).

Although technically, psykers wouldn't be permitted the use of their powers at all unless you house rule them the right to ignore this point of grappling:

Participants in a Grapple can only use the Grapple Action.

But judging from your statements, your group has done away with this condition.

A penalty depends on the situation but if you think about it a psyker is also not distracted when being engaged by several enemies in close combat or when being targeted by dozens of bullets. In the end the will is just the extension of a trained psyker and it might cause him less stress to use one of his reliably easy powers than to even lift a hand.

For me it is just absurd that a grapple action completely negates one the most most powerful kind in the WH40k lore and I wonder why the Witch Hunters have near-unique Null-Rods that are less effective than an army of professional Wrestlers that grapple anything left and right. Just imagine Ahriman being grappled by some generic MEQ and stripped of all his powers.

We cant see any logic in that and yea, we utilize the house rule of common sense in that case where we might add a lot of situational modifiers. The idea of -10-30 to the test seems okay on the first glance, but it is not consistent to all the other situations that are much for stressful than someone grabbing you. Did you ever participate in a bar fight? There is not much distracting about being in a sleeper hold or some other nasty submission grip. For sure it is something different if you life is at risk... but then I would piss my pant more If I had to look right into a barrel of some gun.

It's not commen sense FieserMoep, it's down to your personal taste.

To answer your question:

- Been in a bar fight

- Been in a warzone (Iraq, 1-2nd year of fighting)

- Been in a wrestling match

- Been jumped mercilessly by thugs who robbed me.

- Been blown back by a mortar impact (not close enough to harm me seriously).

A fire fight doesn't envoke the same level of panic as being straggled, but it does qualify as a stressful environment. During a fire fight, panic won't grip you if you are trained for it (as a Militant-Savant would be) until the moment you are shot. Sure, your going to be cautious, your going to get disoriented during a prolonged shoot out and yes, you will panic under heavy suppressive fire (as the rules enforce in this game with pinning).

That said, when one is being strangled, pinned to the ground, and other wise restrained the human mind reacts with a certain level of primal urgency, especially once the mind registers the assailant as being stronger than yourself. That envokes the same level of panic comporable to being suppressed by gunfire.

You say:

Did you ever participate in a bar fight? There is not much distracting about being in a sleeper hold or some other nasty submission grip.

And I counter: Have you participated in a bar right and tried to text a message with correct grammer while trying to break free from drunkard hitting you? Go ahead and try that, and let me know how you do. That's the equivilent of a psyker trying to manifest his power (his powers aren't natural at his finger tips, typically - he has the warp trying to consume him to worry about everytime he does some vulgar act against the materium).

You also say:

For me it is just absurd that a grapple action completely negates one the most most powerful kind in the WH40k lore and I wonder why the Witch Hunters have near-unique Null-Rods that are less effective than an army of professional Wrestlers that grapple anything left and right.

The Null-Rod is probably a horrible example for your point of view. It's a device whose intent is to expressely allow you to get close to a psyker without fear of being blasted before you get within a few foot of him. Since Psykers are a precious commidity, it's no wonder these things reinforce the idea that getting a psyker pummelled down is consistent with the setting and the rules. Not to mention Soul-Nets at all here.

Now look at the other spectrum - Torpor, used with ballistic weapons. This is the long-range solution that works effectively well.

Now you say:

Just imagine Ahriman being grappled by some generic MEQ and stripped of all his powers.

Poor example again. Ahriman is the best sorcerer in the known 41st Millennium. I'd have to question why he allowed that MEQ to get past his defenses. And even if he did somehow manage that, i'm fairly certain Ahriman would have his buffs, Touched by Fates, break free from the attempted grapple and ignite the meq with a bolt of change under this system.

That said, when one is being strangled, pinned to the ground, and other wise restrained the human mind reacts with a certain level of primal urgency, especially once the mind registers the assailant as being stronger than yourself. That envokes the same level of panic comporable to being suppressed by gunfire.

So being fearless would make it go away? Or just another WP test that one can rerol with a talent? Guess that will be no problem for a psyker.

And I counter: Have you participated in a bar right and tried to text a message with correct grammer while trying to break free from drunkard hitting you? Go ahead and try that, and let me know how you do. That's the equivilent of a psyker trying to manifest his power (his powers aren't natural at his finger tips, typically - he has the warp trying to consume him to worry about everytime he does some vulgar act against the materium).

No, I cant do that because it is a physical action. Still I would be perfectly able to phrase that message in my thought - with perfect grammar. And for an individual that has devoted his entire life to thinking such messages it would be easier. Also trained psykers control their power very well by limiting their output and still manifesting them in around 2 seconds. Though I argue here part rulebook part novels and not TT where you get only one "setting" that always includes failure. This though refers to experienced psykers, even more dedicated battle psycers.

The Null-Rod is probably a horrible example for your point of view. It's a device whose intent is to expressely allow you to get close to a psyker without fear of being blasted before you get within a few foot of him. Since Psykers are a precious commidity, it's no wonder these things reinforce the idea that getting a psyker pummelled down is consistent with the setting and the rules. Not to mention Soul-Nets at all here.

I would not say it is a bad example. Yes, it is made to get close. But then it is also made to crush it on the head of said psyker. An unconsciousness or dead psyker is a good psyker. A psyker you are hugging is just murdering you. Of course you have tools to capture or limit them but these are rare for two reasons: First of pretty high technology stuff, second: killing is just more reliable. But do you relay think, system aside, ANYONE in Fluff would consider grappling a psyker without a garrote from behind with he intention of insta-kill a good idea? ANYONE? Well, actually... the fluff presents many ways to deal with psykers... none includes what works like a miraculous wonder in this Rulebook... though yea... Pariahs do that kind of normaly suicidal and idiotic stuff... PARIAHS (or nulls...)... though technically they do not even need to grapple...

Poor example again. Ahriman is the best sorcerer in the known 41st Millennium. I'd have to question why he allowed that MEQ to get past his defenses. And even if he did somehow manage that, i'm fairly certain Ahriman would have his buffs, Touched by Fates, break free from the attempted grapple and ignite the meq with a bolt of change under this system.

So Ahriman could only defend himself because he prepared something? Because of buffs? Without them you seriously consider him more or less helpless? (Beside his CSM powers) This example is far from being poor, is just made the flaw in the RAW even more obvious if you put it in that words.

Relying on grappling to prevent something completely unrelated is imho just gamey in a bad way. It is by the rules, but playing by the rules does not mean it is consistent with the setting.

"Hey John-Bob! HEY! I am grappling the Psyker! See? He is just as harmless as a Kitten! AWWWWW Hes making noises!"

That said, when one is being strangled, pinned to the ground, and other wise restrained the human mind reacts with a certain level of primal urgency, especially once the mind registers the assailant as being stronger than yourself. That envokes the same level of panic comporable to being suppressed by gunfire.

So being fearless would make it go away? Or just another WP test that one can rerol with a talent? Guess that will be no problem for a psyker.

I was talking real world here, not mechanics mate. =P

And if we are talking about the Fearless Talent, the psyker would have to pass a test to break from the physical violence.

And I counter: Have you participated in a bar right and tried to text a message with correct grammer while trying to break free from drunkard hitting you? Go ahead and try that, and let me know how you do. That's the equivilent of a psyker trying to manifest his power (his powers aren't natural at his finger tips, typically - he has the warp trying to consume him to worry about everytime he does some vulgar act against the materium).

No, I cant do that because it is a physical action. Still I would be perfectly able to phrase that message in my thought - with perfect grammar. And for an individual that has devoted his entire life to thinking such messages it would be easier. Also trained psykers control their power very well by limiting their output and still manifesting them in around 2 seconds. Though I argue here part rulebook part novels and not TT where you get only one "setting" that always includes failure. This though refers to experienced psykers, even more dedicated battle psycers.

All psykers have subtle mannerisms, movements or points of focus to tag along with their powers. One of the points of a Psy-Focus is to provide such a physical focal point. It's the same level of skill one would require blind-firing a text message.

Additionally, point to me one novel where a psyker manifests a power while being pummelled, tumbling on the ground, or otherwise being grappled by another person. =P There isn't one.

Poor example again. Ahriman is the best sorcerer in the known 41st Millennium. I'd have to question why he allowed that MEQ to get past his defenses. And even if he did somehow manage that, i'm fairly certain Ahriman would have his buffs, Touched by Fates, break free from the attempted grapple and ignite the meq with a bolt of change under this system.

So Ahriman could only defend himself because he prepared something? Because of buffs? Without them you seriously consider him more or less helpless? (Beside his CSM powers) This example is far from being poor, is just made the flaw in the RAW even more obvious if you put it in that words.

Helpless? No, not at all. If he were helpless, he'd be subject to the Helpless condition. His Chaos Space Marines powers in this case are being matched with Loyalist Marine Powers, so I don't know why you bring that up. The only flaw in this example is that you assume that psychic powers are something so innately performed that the 1-2 seconds a round happening per grapple is enough for the grappled target to be aware enough to stop getting hit in critical locations while at the same time simultaenously drawing mental defenses to manifest powers (without risking total damnation by warp predation).

If you said, Ahriman is grappled by a mortal human, then I would laugh at the idea of him being denied any such thing. But in your own example, your matching enhanced reaction times with the same enhanced reaction times, so he'd definitely fall victim to the rules as written.

Relying on grappling to prevent something completely unrelated is imho just gamey in a bad way. It is by the rules, but playing by the rules does not mean it is consistent with the setting.

"Hey John-Bob! HEY! I am grappling the Psyker! See? He is just as harmless as a Kitten! AWWWWW Hes making noises!"

It's complete ludicrous to say that conjuring unnatural powers from the setting's own 'hell' while trying to prevent yourself from being choked, stabbed in the throat, or thrown off a cliff or platform is completely acceptable and, if allowed, shouldn't be penalized. It's gamey to suggest that the psyker, by the nature of being able to use 'magic' is free from such real concerns, because the highest tiers of their kind are able to envoke their powers with unnatural and highly rare ease (Alpha+ Psykers).

I was talking real world here, not mechanics mate. =P

And if we are talking about the Fearless Talent, the psyker would have to pass a test to break from the physical violence.

Why test for a Talent that even makes him ignore looking right into the face of a greater daemon and say "meh"?

All psykers have subtle mannerisms, movements or points of focus to tag along with their powers. One of the points of a Psy-Focus is to provide such a physical focal point. It's the same level of skill one would require blind-firing a text message.

Additionally, point to me one novel where a psyker manifests a power while being pummelled, tumbling on the ground, or otherwise being grappled by another person. =P There isn't one.

That is the big difference between sorcerer and psykers. A Pskyer does not need "subtle mannerisms" though they can provide help. In fact he can stay complete silent, calm etc. and use his powers. That is one of the very reasons they are held in stasis chambers. Because they are always a threat unless frozen in time. On the other side sorcery is dependent on "subtle mannerisms" or big rituals. These are all tools a psyker can use too, but he does not need to unless he wants a very specific ritual. Holding the Psy-Focus is just some help but even then you do not need to perform any action with the psy-focus. Just havin it in contact with your body or being near by is enough.

At last we can agree on Ahriman here though.

It's complete ludicrous to say that conjuring unnatural powers from the setting's own 'hell' while trying to prevent yourself from being choked, stabbed in the throat, or thrown off a cliff or platform is completely acceptable and, if allowed, shouldn't be penalized. It's gamey to suggest that the psyker, by the nature of being able to use 'magic' is free from such real concerns, because the highest tiers of their kind are able to envoke their powers with unnatural and highly rare ease (Alpha+ Psykers).

The problem is, where do you agree that someone is part of the "highest tier"? A psyker with PR 5 hast 50% of a greater daemon of Tzeentch, so is he "50% highest tier"? At that point he is so powerful that he can use fettered powers with an effective PR of 3, that is pretty good with some powers already. So even If I would, let say, add +10/20 on a possible perils roll, because that is, what you would refer to as being in greater danger because of less stress, it would have no effect.

And I counter: Have you participated in a bar right and tried to text a message with correct grammer while trying to break free from drunkard hitting you? Go ahead and try that, and let me know how you do.

While I have nowhere near your experience in these matters, this one I have actually tried!

...it did not end well. For either of us.

I was talking real world here, not mechanics mate. =P

And if we are talking about the Fearless Talent, the psyker would have to pass a test to break from the physical violence.

Why test for a Talent that even makes him ignore looking right into the face of a greater daemon and say "meh"?

Because read the Talent. That's part of the talent description. A character has to test to disengage from a fight.

All psykers have subtle mannerisms, movements or points of focus to tag along with their powers. One of the points of a Psy-Focus is to provide such a physical focal point. It's the same level of skill one would require blind-firing a text message.

Additionally, point to me one novel where a psyker manifests a power while being pummelled, tumbling on the ground, or otherwise being grappled by another person. =P There isn't one.

That is the big difference between sorcerer and psykers. A Pskyer does not need "subtle mannerisms" though they can provide help. In fact he can stay complete silent, calm etc. and use his powers. That is one of the very reasons they are held in stasis chambers. Because they are always a threat unless frozen in time. On the other side sorcery is dependent on "subtle mannerisms" or big rituals. These are all tools a psyker can use too, but he does not need to unless he wants a very specific ritual. Holding the Psy-Focus is just some help but even then you do not need to perform any action with the psy-focus. Just havin it in contact with your body or being near by is enough.

At last we can agree on Ahriman here though.

Sorcery as presented thus far has been very drastic in their actions. You need to swallow a bullet to trigger one spell, for example. The sublime sorcery eliminates that need. But ultimately whether we agree or disagree on this point, whatever we both view as 'right' doesn't matter in regards of physical mannerisms, blatant or subtle. Psychic manifestation requires concentration.

It's complete ludicrous to say that conjuring unnatural powers from the setting's own 'hell' while trying to prevent yourself from being choked, stabbed in the throat, or thrown off a cliff or platform is completely acceptable and, if allowed, shouldn't be penalized. It's gamey to suggest that the psyker, by the nature of being able to use 'magic' is free from such real concerns, because the highest tiers of their kind are able to envoke their powers with unnatural and highly rare ease (Alpha+ Psykers).

The problem is, where do you agree that someone is part of the "highest tier"? A psyker with PR 5 hast 50% of a greater daemon of Tzeentch, so is he "50% highest tier"? At that point he is so powerful that he can use fettered powers with an effective PR of 3, that is pretty good with some powers already. So even If I would, let say, add +10/20 on a possible perils roll, because that is, what you would refer to as being in greater danger because of less stress, it would have no effect.

Good thing we have a point of reference with the Burning Princess. Alpha + Psyker, with Psy-Rating 14. Effectively, no player character ever gets to be 'that good' to negate the need to concentrate, even as slightly as needed, to outright be considered impervious to having that concentration broken by mundane acts.

Essentially, the mechanic in place does allow a psyker to break free from a grapple and manifest a power in the same turn - since the psyker in question no longer is in clear and present danger. And thats not even considering the narrative effects of denying the psyker his abilities during a grapple - that loss of being manifested is a merc pushing the hand that throws flame out of it aside, jabbing the psyker in the throat. When you stop judging it by the mechanics alone, it becomes quite clear why the psyker shouldn't be an odd-ball exception to the rules everyone else is subject to.

Ultimately, however, this isn't going to be a thing i'll convince of you, nor will you convince me of your point of me. I'm going to swing back to my earlier point: It's just not 'common sense', it's just a subjective interpretation on both our parts. Rules as written does support my claim, but I can understand your arguement. I simply felt intrigued enough to respond so thoroughly as you approached this topic with a matter of factly air.

(note: did enjoy this debate, hopefully my writing style doesn't convey any negative qualities to it)

Because read the Talent. That's part of the talent description. A character has to test to disengage from a fight.

For me this is clearly not disengaging from a test. With that explanation even talking would be "disengaging" from a fight. But he is still fighting, only with another weapon: His Will.

Psychic manifestation requires concentration.

I partly disagree here. A psyker has to concentrate: yes, But it is not as hard as you might imply here. Though I see that we both argue here over a point that is up to complete interpretation given the different sources everyone of us could quote here. And mainly this is the real crux of the argument between us both.

It's just not 'common sense', it's just a subjective interpretation on both our parts. Rules as written does support my claim, but I can understand your arguement. I simply felt intrigued enough to respond so thoroughly as you approached this topic with a matter of factly air.

Well maybe I am a bit cocky about the "common sense" because I had several groups that shared the exact same opinion on that matter and I hence took it for guaranteed. Though I still think that way I take that "common sense" back for clearly you are of another opinion, one I do not share of course, but never the less a still valid one. In the end this is the old WH40k dilemma where the fluff is as consistent as the mood of an ADHD Teen on crack and everyone has a written-in-stone opinion about the setting that is just as valid as another ones.

(note: did enjoy this debate, hopefully my writing style doesn't convey any negative qualities to it)

Nah, as you might have noticed we were both pretty bull-headed and I like it that way. If you argue you have to defend a point you think is right, as long as you dont cross a certain line everyone can be as stubborn or straight forward as he wants to be. At last that is required to make a real discussion even possible if you ask me.^^

Because read the Talent. That's part of the talent description. A character has to test to disengage from a fight.

For me this is clearly not disengaging from a test. With that explanation even talking would be "disengaging" from a fight. But he is still fighting, only with another weapon: His Will.

Interpretation and all that. =P

It's just not 'common sense', it's just a subjective interpretation on both our parts. Rules as written does support my claim, but I can understand your arguement. I simply felt intrigued enough to respond so thoroughly as you approached this topic with a matter of factly air.

Well maybe I am a bit cocky about the "common sense" because I had several groups that shared the exact same opinion on that matter and I hence took it for guaranteed. Though I still think that way I take that "common sense" back for clearly you are of another opinion, one I do not share of course, but never the less a still valid one. In the end this is the old WH40k dilemma where the fluff is as consistent as the mood of an ADHD Teen on crack and everyone has a written-in-stone opinion about the setting that is just as valid as another ones.

As common as it may have been in your circle, for quite awhile it's been known that the Emperor was nearly throttled by Gharkul Blackfang during the Heresy (the 40k's psyker's psyker). Vis-a-vis, setting supports a less 'always active super hero approach' than it does a 'concentration magic approach'. For reference, this is the blighter that did it. Yes, he is huge.

(note: did enjoy this debate, hopefully my writing style doesn't convey any negative qualities to it)

Nah, as you might have noticed we were both pretty bull-headed and I like it that way. If you argue you have to defend a point you think is right, as long as you dont cross a certain line everyone can be as stubborn or straight forward as he wants to be. At last that is required to make a real discussion even possible if you ask me.^^

Awesome. Look forward to your next resonse then. =D

I leave you with this now for the chuckles.

Common tactics?

Yeah, suppressive fire all the way. even the guys with 50+ BS will do it. You know why? Because ****. while the sniper is picking off single mooks (because they have a hardon for big damage numbers) i'm forcing 3-5 guys to duck down every turn. Or ordering our heavy to do so, then I get in close and dump party favors on them.

Herd a bunch of enemies behind cover, then Vos Pattern grenade launcher, 3 round grenade burst. get some!

I also like sneaking and ambushing. Recon prior to operations is what i sincerely believe in.

Defensively, it's great to have your heavy on overwatch in a hidden position. Leave a snare mine hidden in the environs, put your guys on high ground above it with your heavy at the bottom, hidden. The mine pops, the bad guys stumble, get pinned down by suppression from your mates on the high ground, then the heavy steps out and dakka-dakka, dead dudes.

from time to time, being drop troopers, we also get our Valks into the mix. First time we did a single-platoon mission we blew the warp out of a ton of mutants with missiles and heavy bolter straffe runs before we even dropped.

Unfortunately our group playslike a group of murder hobos (a hangover of their rich D&D lineage) which although not in the OW spirit fits suprisingly well with our penal legion`s cast of singular individuals.

As such the Orgyn and commissar run into close quarters (the Ogryn`s gun was confiscated for shooting an officer accidentally) the commisar runs in to stay in his habitual place of safety behind the meatsheild of towering Ogryn.

The rest of the group either try to pick off serious threats to our forward party with concentrated fire before the crazed melee Ogryn reaches them or blast randomly at unengaged targets of oppurtunity while team Commigryn mops up in the centre.

...How is "murderhobo" different from soldiers in WH40k?

Do you mean that they ignore orders?

Because "Go to location X kill Y" can be a mission for IG or something the murderhobos do. "Go to location X and scout it before returning" and other more complicated missions (rescue, salvage or bodyguard missions for example) might be a bit different, but since the squad is just following orders to kill enemies in different warzones the typical murderhobo party is not that far from what they SHOULD be doing most of the time.

...How is "murderhobo" different from soldiers in WH40k?

[...]

Murderhoboing is when you kill things for little reason and take everything they're wearing, sells it somewhere, and generally act like you're a group of criminal vagrants without a home.

Most 40k regiments aren't murderhobos any more than contemporary military detachments in the real world.

Penal Regiments, though... yeah, they're pretty much murderhobos.

Though, it's more of a behavior, than a combat tactic...

What are they going to loot?

Taking stuff from Xenos or Chaos forces is a fast way to make sure the nearest Commissar will shoot you.

Even renegade Imperial forces not aligned with chaos (such as the Severan Dominate or those humans serving Tau Empire) will deface all their Imperial gear and use their own markings on it so it is probably concidered unclean by techpriests.

The "safest" source of stolen gear are IG regiments. (if you steal from your own, the gear will look like it belongs to you. Gear stolen from other regiments might be from different pattern and thus stand out, but the officers might be willing to overlook it. Depends on the type of regiment.)