Do we have any word from Mexico yet?

Not yet. I just posted on their facebook page, so hopefully we get some responses.

I still maintain that the Z-95 is going to be a bigger long-term meta changer than the Phantom. Half the reason that Falcons are doing so well is because the Z-95 is a REALLY cost efficient filler, so it's made Falcon + support builds even better.

Rebel Aces won't shake up the meta as much as wave 4. Cheap A-wings will also make good filler, but their overall cost efficiency is on par with the B-wing, so I don't expect it to fundamentally change anything. A-wings will get splashed around finally, Keyan will be let loose in a few lists, and that's about it.

It may be surely is my Imperial player eyes looking at it, but I think those Proton Rockets have a ton of potential. I'm extremely excited about getting my hands on those.

I still maintain that the Z-95 is going to be a bigger long-term meta changer than the Phantom. Half the reason that Falcons are doing so well is because the Z-95 is a REALLY cost efficient filler, so it's made Falcon + support builds even better.

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While I'm not sure how much the Z-95 has helped, I don't think it's an surprise that a cheap, decent filler ship is going to impact the long term meta. It's why the TIE fighter has been so useful (even moreso because of Howl). Of course, it will be interesting to see if predator starts to get more use and impacts that. A prototype A-wing with refit will also be a better blocker and more survivable, so it will provide an interesting choice.

As for how much Z-95s will change the meta compared to the phantom, I just don't think that's possible. From a simple numbers perspective it's going to be tough as one phantom accounts for three bandits and often a few more points. From simply a squad construction perspective, I don't think the Z-95 will ever impact the way people think about building their squad as much as the phantom already has, and the Z-95 fillers take a back seat to whatever it is supporting.

FFG knows better than I do of course, but I hope their answer isn't just more high PS and more turrets as wave 5 seems to be.

I'm not saying some really good players won't find other niches with two or 3 elite ships, but 95% of people are going to default to the easy Phantom-killer(or Phantom) + mini-swarm. Those may not be the builds that "win" the meta in the end, but that isn't what is important to me. I don't want to spend 95% of my time playing minor variations of two squads, regardless of what awesome build a World Champ flies to beat them both. In the meantime, it will just be (and has been) a slog.

Please. Give it time. You have to give the meta some time to settle. The fascinating thing about pilot skill bids, is that it can easily end up being wasted if someone goes basic. Wave 4 actually made this an important decision.

Please. Give it time. You have to give the meta some time to settle. The fascinating thing about pilot skill bids, is that it can easily end up being wasted if someone goes basic. Wave 4 actually made this an important decision.

The meta may "settle", but for most players, they are just going to try to field something that isn't likely to get "phantomed" (i.e. fly around for 45 minutes taking little to no shots and having your ships destroyed from behind one by one). Fear of that will keep lists limited even if there are basic squads out there that may work.

Please. Give it time. You have to give the meta some time to settle. The fascinating thing about pilot skill bids, is that it can easily end up being wasted if someone goes basic. Wave 4 actually made this an important decision.

Anything is possible of course, but I don't see PS bids as that much waste on these hyper-mobile ships. A few wasted points on PS just don't matter with a ship that can realistically destroy an entire squad. I'll take Whisper/Echo+VI+ACD and any supporting cast against any currently constructable group of "basic" pilots.

That's the thing though - choosing to take Veteran Instincts on a Phantom doesn't just have the 1 point cost - it also has an opportunity cost.

That said, it is well worth the points right now.

Or people realize how to maneuver when facing a Phantom. Just like in the runaway A-wings situation, it is not impossible to line up arcs on the Phantom.

I'm surprised the super Han and Chewy build didn't win the Madness regional. I think he was on the top table the whole day and undefeated going into top 8. Team Covenant/Tulsa was well represented as they held 2 or 3 of the top 8 spots. And I think Zach finished in the top 16.

Big thanks to Matt, his family, the other judges, and Madness. It was incredibly smooth and fun. The custom playmats were well received and a great prize to those deserving 32.

I'm disappointed in my own performance. And learned that I still have a lot to learn.

spoken like a true good sportsman

i wish you nothing but the best

this game is always changing so there is always plenty to learn. just keep on top of the meta; take a list and practice, practice and practice until you know your list inside and out

Please. Give it time. You have to give the meta some time to settle. The fascinating thing about pilot skill bids, is that it can easily end up being wasted if someone goes basic. Wave 4 actually made this an important decision.

Anything is possible of course, but I don't see PS bids as that much waste on these hyper-mobile ships. A few wasted points on PS just don't matter with a ship that can realistically destroy an entire squad. I'll take Whisper/Echo+VI+ACD and any supporting cast against any currently constructable group of "basic" pilots.

That's the thing though - choosing to take Veteran Instincts on a Phantom doesn't just have the 1 point cost - it also has an opportunity cost.

That said, it is well worth the points right now.

Very little opportunity is lost right now was what I was trying to get at. Sure, maybe player X didn't need VI to beat your squad of all PS2s and the point was wasted. Heck, he could have even saved the points he wasted on a named pilot. But whether he blew the PS bid or not, he'll win anyways if he can fly it, the points can be wasted and matter not at all.

Filling in the top 8 list from the Colorado Regional.

I got top 8 with the following list:

Soontir Fel + PTL, Howlrunner + Swarm Tactics, Obsidian Squadron X2, Academy Pilot X2.

Lost to 2nd place.

Or people realize how to maneuver when facing a Phantom. Just like in the runaway A-wings situation, it is not impossible to line up arcs on the Phantom.

I keep hearing that people may learn to fly against it. Some will. But obviously it ain't easy, and right about 50% of players are below average. Let's not act like because some few figure it out and also can manage it that it will change the overall meta. There are going to be enough players that can't do it and will just throw their hands up and play gunner-turret or Phantom. And some that can do it will still play gunner-turret or Phantom. We'll still be slogging through those types of lists in most fights even if something totally different wins Nationals. And that is my issue. Something else may come out of Wave IV as the ultimate winner, but it looks that we're going to be facing the same lists over and over.

I have been working out a very strong strategy Vs the Phantom, using a 4 ship rebel build. It does help that most people whom fly the Phantom are unaware of its vulnerability. There is always a counter tactic for every tactic. Sure the phantom can be a slippery sucker with a mean bite. One on one against a Phantom is near impossible with out the Phantom making a mistake. Two on one is a different story, while three to one that Phantom is in deep trouble.

I would love to post in my movement guide the tactics to stop the tri-winged menace. Once I have the full strategy worked out, I will. That may not be until after GenCon however

There are lots of choices other than Phantom or Falcon; Falcon is just an easy, reliable, and therefore popular choice in a very unsettled metagame. I'd wait a few months--at least until the GenCon/US Nationals results are in--before donning sackcloth and ashes. (If the top 8 there is still heavily dominated by Phantoms and Falcons, I'll join you in the wailing and gnashing of teeth.)

I really wish people would stop saying we should until after Gen Con to make judgement on Wave 4. Once Gen Con hits, any pure Wave 4 meta is likely gone - Rebel Aces will likely have been released or be insanely close and we'll be onto that form of the meta.

If 90% of the wave was Phantoms and Falcons, then the wave was Phantoms and Falcons.

You're welcome to go on wishing, but I'm on pretty solid ground: we have enough experience to know that it takes at least a few months for the metagame to settle down, and Wave 4 is probably one of the bigger perturbations the game has had. If the time we get between Waves 4 and 5 isn't enough to draw a clear conclusion, then it isn't, and I'm okay with the uncertainty.

Or people realize how to maneuver when facing a Phantom. Just like in the runaway A-wings situation, it is not impossible to line up arcs on the Phantom.

I keep hearing that people may learn to fly against it. Some will. But obviously it ain't easy, and right about 50% of players are below average. Let's not act like because some few figure it out and also can manage it that it will change the overall meta. There are going to be enough players that can't do it and will just throw their hands up and play gunner-turret or Phantom. And some that can do it will still play gunner-turret or Phantom. We'll still be slogging through those types of lists in most fights even if something totally different wins Nationals. And that is my issue. Something else may come out of Wave IV as the ultimate winner, but it looks that we're going to be facing the same lists over and over.

Well the thing is many "average" or "below average" players will be using the Phantom too, these players will still lock their dial in with the 1 decloak option in mind. If you know which option that is then you should have no problem figuring out their maneuver

Look at last year. Double Falcons nearly as far as the eye can see during Store Championships. Yet, 3 X-wings lost to a swarm at Gencon. A full 4 ship wave needs time to settle with players. New stuff for older ships have less of an impact, because we will already be familiar with the ship's capabilities. Not so much with new ships.

I have been working out a very strong strategy Vs the Phantom, using a 4 ship rebel build. It does help that most people whom fly the Phantom are unaware of its vulnerability. There is always a counter tactic for every tactic. Sure the phantom can be a slippery sucker with a mean bite. One on one against a Phantom is near impossible with out the Phantom making a mistake. Two on one is a different story, while three to one that Phantom is in deep trouble.

I would love to post in my movement guide the tactics to stop the tri-winged menace. Once I have the full strategy worked out, I will. That may not be until after GenCon however

You are not going to block a phantom if you are not already playing something swarmy. 4 ships is not swarmy enough, i would just run away with the phantom while the ties kill you. I feel pretty confident doing 3 vs 1 on the phantom btw. The only thing that can give me some troubles with the phantom, is PS9 moving after me, and it's more about being overconfident than just being countered.

It seems like i decided to jump into xwing into its worst moment. Hope FFG catches up.

How long has Wave 4 been out?

Third week or June sometime. About a month...

One month...

And people feel comfortable making the level of declarations about the state of the game that are getting made? Despite constant examples, both in this game and others, of initial impressions being only part of the full picture. Of things taking time to click with the larger group. Of things that just take a little more time and testing to work.

X-wing must be doing quite well as a product to draw in so many first time competitive gamers.

First time competitive gamers ? Hilarious.

Hey, that's really the only conclusion that explains the quickness people are displaying in asserting that in just a single month the new additions to the game have all been figured out. Especially when you consider that the new additions consist of a substantial portion of the product line, introduce a new mechanic, and contain options that change faction dynamics.

Players with a history in other games would see and recognize that initial reaction to releases often require substantial time to percolate. Many times not only are the things perceived good right off the bat in the end considered good, but things initially well received lose thier luster once players spend more time with them in play.

You don't even have to look outside this game for examples. Does anyone remember in the lead up to the Kessl Run event where the majority of the forum thought the Rebels had no shot in the finals. That the Falcon wasn't able to pull it's weight overall because of the point cost with only one attack a turn. That Han was the worst named pilot. That Interceptors were going to be a real terror. People really didn't recieve thr HLC all that well at first either. Things take time to shake out. Players as a group are overly reactionary and slow to adapt to change. Eventually some do and perceptions shift.

Neither comparison is really good. The truth is that the game was less figured out 1 year ago, than it is now. It is easier and faster to react to current trends than it was before, and be more accurate in making judgements on new ships an abilities. I don't think you need 3 months to figure it out by now. I don't know, Overreaction ? Doubtful, it probably has more to do with my current an individual perception (basically, i am right now 21-2 with whisper, both those loses, to han) than overreacting. Not only that, but the overreaction is more productive than people give it credit for, since it obsess players to get effective ways to deal with it, experiment, and start cutting edges afterwards.

Following your argument and line of thought, instead of argueing about "how people yell the sky is falling every now and then" we could be more productive and discuss how do you think you would deal with the current phantom/falcon meta ?

Step one is calm down the sky isn't falling. If you believe the game is broke you can't get anywhere from there. If your mind is made up where can the discussion go afterall?

That's an overstatement.