It's not that surprising. Whisper is better able to combat Chewie, who seems to be the Falcon people lean toward.

Well I agree I prefer Whisper over Echo myself but I see more forum posts with Echo in there over Whisper

My favorite set up for Whisper probably would be VI+ACD, and the only question is whether or not I look for the 2 points for a FCS and of course leaving room for an initiative bid,

With 4(5) dice and a focus (and a TL at a target you already shot at) it is easy enough to land hits and gain extra focus to have one for defense. I believe that that is he reason people think Whisper is the "better" counter to Chewie is that he gets a defensive focus for cheaper than what Echo can (Echo +recspec is 1 point more than whisper for 1 less PS and assuming the other upgrades are similar)

Phantom sounds like fun. Think I'll try it some time.

How does Whisper counter Chewie?

Supposedly because anything with higher agility than someone has attack dice can counter them.

There's been a lot of discussion that because the Phantom has higher mobility than the falcon and they mathermatically take eachother out at the same time that the Phantom counters the falcon. This completely ignores the fact the Phantom has to have a shot to recloak, something the falcon is particularly good at avoiding while still having a shot thanks to the 360 degree firing arc and the fact the Phantom practically cannot K-Turn against a falcon.

The Phantom forces good flying from the Falcon in a way no other individual ship has.

You can shoot every single turn with a phantom against a falcon with lower PS. Play the whisper by yourself if you need to try it out. You have to screw out big time for that to happen (1arrow 90º are key for this).

Whisper over echo is because of better PS, the straight line barrel roll being better most of the time fhe kind of dance you want to do with the phantom, and more importantly, and after shooting you get a concentration token, so you can spend yours freely for increased damage if something can shoot you back (ie, falcon).

Whisper with fire control system, and advanced cloaking device is a power house when it comes to free actions. Recon crew would make him even better, but too many points in my opinion.

Can't phantoms just seven forward and recloak then flank again for another attack? Sure they can K turn but there is a lot more that they can do that others can't that can position them into falcon at range three.

Can't phantoms just seven forward and recloak then flank again for another attack? Sure they can K turn but there is a lot more that they can do that others can't that can position them into falcon at range three.

Beyond that, a cloaked Phantom with no tokens is not very scary or hard to hit. Even at range 5. If they're running and recloaking you're winning.

My favorite set up for Whisper probably would be VI+ACD, and the only question is whether or not I look for the 2 points for a FCS and of course leaving room for an initiative bid.

I have a friend who runs Whisper with that set up along with 2 Shadow Squad with ACD and does extremely well with them.

How does Whisper counter Chewie?

Supposedly because anything with higher agility than someone has attack dice can counter them.

There's been a lot of discussion that because the Phantom has higher mobility than the falcon and they mathermatically take eachother out at the same time that the Phantom counters the falcon. This completely ignores the fact the Phantom has to have a shot to recloak, something the falcon is particularly good at avoiding while still having a shot thanks to the 360 degree firing arc and the fact the Phantom practically cannot K-Turn against a falcon.

The Phantom forces good flying from the Falcon in a way no other individual ship has.

You can shoot every single turn with a phantom against a falcon with lower PS. Play the whisper by yourself if you need to try it out. You have to screw out big time for that to happen (1arrow 90º are key for this).

Whisper over echo is because of better PS, the straight line barrel roll being better most of the time fhe kind of dance you want to do with the phantom, and more importantly, and after shooting you get a concentration token, so you can spend yours freely for increased damage if something can shoot you back (ie, falcon).

Whisper with fire control system, and advanced cloaking device is a power house when it comes to free actions. Recon crew would make him even better, but too many points in my opinion.

Honestly you can't. If the Falcon gets behind you it becomes a prediction game.If the two of you hard turn opposite directions they can stay out of your arc again. The Phantom takes two turns to turn around, and that's rough. Echo is better, but even he has guessing game blind spots, and suffers from other issues. You cannot always get shots on a falcon. That's their entire thing. Let alone what high PS falcons with navigator do...

I had done both in game and tested it outside. I just told you how, get in a flank, dont ever leave that flank and you are golden. As i said, against lower PS falcons, but we are talking about chewbie, aren't we ?

Can you please start a thread titled "How does Whisper counter Chewie?" so the Regionals results don't get lost in the off-topic noise?

Thanks.

How does Whisper counter Chewie?

Supposedly because anything with higher agility than someone has attack dice can counter them.

There's been a lot of discussion that because the Phantom has higher mobility than the falcon and they mathermatically take eachother out at the same time that the Phantom counters the falcon. This completely ignores the fact the Phantom has to have a shot to recloak, something the falcon is particularly good at avoiding while still having a shot thanks to the 360 degree firing arc and the fact the Phantom practically cannot K-Turn against a falcon.

The Phantom forces good flying from the Falcon in a way no other individual ship has.

You can shoot every single turn with a phantom against a falcon with lower PS. Play the whisper by yourself if you need to try it out. You have to screw out big time for that to happen (1arrow 90º are key for this).

Whisper over echo is because of better PS, the straight line barrel roll being better most of the time fhe kind of dance you want to do with the phantom, and more importantly, and after shooting you get a concentration token, so you can spend yours freely for increased damage if something can shoot you back (ie, falcon).

Whisper with fire control system, and advanced cloaking device is a power house when it comes to free actions. Recon crew would make him even better, but too many points in my opinion.

Honestly you can't. If the Falcon gets behind you it becomes a prediction game.If the two of you hard turn opposite directions they can stay out of your arc again. The Phantom takes two turns to turn around, and that's rough. Echo is better, but even he has guessing game blind spots, and suffers from other issues. You cannot always get shots on a falcon. That's their entire thing. Let alone what high PS falcons with navigator do...

I had done both in game and tested it outside. I just told you how, get in a flank, dont ever leave that flank and you are golden. As i said, against lower PS falcons, but we are talking about chewbie, aren't we ?

The decloak manuever is mandatory when removing the token. This game doesn't happen in a vacuum, and a skilled falcon pilot can very much use that, to corral a Falcon.

Without something mitigating the manueverability of the falcon(Rebel Captive) the Falcon can outfly a phantom.

As for a topic. Eh. Too much work, and it's a pretty valid discussion in relation to the results we're seeing with Chewie succesfully beating Phantoms.

I have twelve games with the phantom thus far, not many i think, but enough to not be completely lost with it. Erratic ? Not at all. It may seem that way to your opponent (inexperienced against him), but it shouldn't for you. 2 straight line barrel roll paired with 1 hard turn basically allows you to keep yourself on a flank every turn.. I already told you how (three times with this one), seriously no offense intended, but it would be great if actually went to try it yourself instead of answering trying to explain things that i already do in game. I don't mean to be rude.

I hope this "shows" better what i had been saying with words.

http://i.imgur.com/iEUdwOw.png

And yes, my paint skills are pretty horrid. But basically, with your chosen maneuver, and the options you have with decloak, there is absolutely no way a falcon gets out of sight, and after that, you are just following him. Why ? It is simple, you can always match his vector due to the ability to reposition from three different vectors before doing the 90º degrees turn, allowing you to face him every single time.

I didn´t have the time, but for example, if he moved to moved to the left, instead of the right in the example, you would need to do a different maneuver with your decloak (basically, the way up), but you would still get him into your arc.

I guess we should stop the quote pyramids tho ;p

I have twelve games with the phantom thus far. Erratic ? Not at all. It may seem that way to your opponent, but it shouldn't for you. 2 straight line barrel roll paired with 1 hard turn basically allows you to keep yourself on a flank every turn.. I already told you how (three times with this one), seriously no offense intended, but it would be great if actually went to try it yourself instead of answering trying to explain things that i already do in game. I don't mean to be rude.

I hope this "shows" better what i had been saying with words.

http://i.imgur.com/iEUdwOw.png

And yes, my paint skills are pretty horrid. But basically, with your chosen maneuver, and the options you have with decloak, there is absolutely no way a falcon gets out of sight, and after that, you are just following him. Why ? It is simple, you can always match his vector due to the ability to reposition from three different vectors before doing the 90º degrees turn, allowing you to face him every single time.

I guess we should stop the quote pyramids tho ;p

Yes, if you 100% predict their moves you Can keep them in arc. But you cannot 100% predict their moves because they don't have to care which way their arc faces.

Of note. I played against this today. A lot. I stand by my point.

You don't need to predict their movements. If you are at its flanks, he can either go straight, turn towards you, or turn away away from you. A hard 1 will work towards the direction he is pointing at. Anyways, i am done with the discussion, believe what you want.

I totally agree, take your Phantoms discussions elsewhere.

Gatineau Regionals, 2014

Gatineau Regionals, 2014

(For Major Juggler) (Full List)

1) Grish 100, Rebel: Han + E.U. + Predator + M.F. + C3P0 + Luke; Bandit x 3

2) Trevor Ryan 100, Rebel: Chewie + Gunner + C3P0 + V.I. + M.F.; Bandit x 4

3) Dany Laberge 100, Empire: Whisper + I.A. + Adv.S. + V.I. + ACD; B.H. + Tactician; Omicron + Vader

4) Tierry Gocel-Lafare 100, Empire: Omicron + HLC; Soontir + PTL + T.C.; Backstabber; A.P. x2

5) Mathieu Pare- Paquin 100, Rebel: Lando + Recon + PTL +Nien; Chewie + Recon + PTL + M.F.

6) Alexander Brochu 100, Rebel: Han + Marksmanship + C3P0 +Gunner +M.F.; Rookie x2

7) Benjamine Lafreniere 100, Empire: Gamma +Ass.M. + Missiles Grouper (Clusters?) + Proton; Carnor + PTL + Hull; Soontir + Royal + S.U. + T.C. + PTL

8) Jefferey Dunford 99, Empire: Howl + S.T.; Mauler + S.T.; A.P x2; Alpha x 2

9) Mark Montreuil 100, Rebel: Wedge + Sq.L. +R2; Roark + Blaster; Blue + ion; Blount + Ion Pulse Missile

10) Francois Beaumond 100, Rebel: Blue x 3; Proto x 2

11) John Zaluski 99, Empire: B.H. + Recon x2: Omicron + Vader + Captive

12) Jason O’Gorman 100, Rebel: Bandit x 3, Rookie x2, Blue

13) Erik Pichette 100, Rebel: Chewie +Opportunist +Han Solo + W.Engineer +M.F.; Blue + FCS x2

14) Michel Pilon100, Rebels: Han + C3P0 + M.F.; Blue Adv.s. x2

15) Jean Outlette 100, Rebel: Wes + V.I.; Wedge + Predator +R2; Luke +R2D2+ D.T.F.+S.U.

16) Eric Verier 100, Rebel: Blue + HLC + FCS; Ten +HLC +FCS + V.I.; Roark + Ion + Chewie

17) Pierre Yves Duval 100, Rebel: Dutch + Flechette x2 + R2: Hobbie + R3A2; Gold + Flechette x2 + R2; Blue

18) Denis Cote 99, Rebel: Han + Chewie, + C3P0 + Determination + S.D + Cluster; Wedge + S.U. + R2D2 + Adrenaline rush

19) Remi Dumais, 99, Empire: Omicron + FCS +APL x2, Omicron + FCS; Omicron + Vader + FCS

20) Mark Gosselin 99, Rebel: Gold + Ion + E.U.; Blue + Adv.S. + HLC + E.U. x2

21) Adam Hurd 100, Empire: Soonitr + PTL; Carnor; Howl; Obsidian x 2

22) Gianni Rossi 100, Rebel: Wes + V.I. + R3A2; Wedge + Predator +R4D6; Luke + Predator + R2D2

23) Benoit Phillipe Girouard 100, Rebels: Dutch + Ion + R2; Hobbie + R3A2, Tarn, Rookie

24) Maxime Bluteau 98, Rebel: Blue + HLC + FCS; Etahn + S.T. + R2-D2; Roark + Crow + Recon + Blaster

25) Jean Latreille 99, Empire: B.H. x3

26) Yvon Deneault 100, Empire: Echo + Outmaneuver +FCS +ACD + Captive; RGP + PTL + S.U. x2

27) Rene 99, Rebel: Biggs + R2D2; Blue +HLC+ Adv.S. +Hull x2

28) Garrette Lowe 100, Empire: Rexlar + Predator; BSP + V.I. x 4

*edit was to fill in missing lists

Great! What was the attendance and final cut?

Lots of Falcons there!

Attendance was 28. Cut to top 8. I lost to grish in the semis. So 1st place was

Han Solo + luke + predator + millenum + C3P0 + Engine upgrade

3 x bandits Z95

Seriously Whisper was ridiculous. I might as well just have played him alone...surprisingly only two phantoms in the whole tournament. Oh, C3P0 with millenum title is another broken thing. No wonder grish won. You cant keep up with a boosting falcon so focus fire on it is very tough to do. Then he just evade garanteeing 2 evade. How many 3-4 hits shot you need to bring him down? You are likely to be dead before

Attendance was 28. Cut to top 8. I lost to grish in the semis. So 1st place was

Han Solo + luke + predator + millenum + C3P0 + Engine upgrade

3 x bandits Z95

Seriously Whisper was ridiculous. I might as well just have played him alone...surprisingly only two phantoms in the whole tournament. Oh, C3P0 with millenum title is another broken thing. No wonder grish won. You cant keep up with a boosting falcon so focus fire on it is very tough to do. Then he just evade garanteeing 2 evade. How many 3-4 hits shot you need to bring him down? You are likely to be dead before

Awesome job to Thierry a fellow Montréal player with an odd build, but played really well in the tournament and gave me my first lost when I was 4-0,he finished 4th overall, got the nice acrylic templates too. It was funny in the morning in the parking lot, he was telling me that if he had 2 wins in the whole tournament he would be happy! Hehehe

That Han build is awesome. I think my first wave 4 build I posted here after seeing Z-95 stats was that exact build, except take PtL instead of Predator, so you can boost + evade every turn.

MathWing commentary: it looks like YT-1300 + Gunner counters ACD Phantom, but a gunnerless YT-1300 does not. True in 3/3 cases so far. MathWing is 3-0! :-) It also looks like Zs are replacing Rookies/Reds as filler in the winning lists, as also predicted by MathWing jousting values.

one thing i find a bit boring is that of the top 8, 4 of them where Rebel and each one had a YT-1300, just wait till the YT-2400 comes out it's going to be those 2 ships all over the place.

one thing i find a bit boring is that of the top 8, 4 of them where Rebel and each one had a YT-1300, just wait till the YT-2400 comes out it's going to be those 2 ships all over the place.

As time goes on people will find other, more diverse ways to go about it.

We'll start to see a lot of Gunnersprays, and HLC as well. Once Wave 5 hits we'll see a lot of Large ship plus support lists. I'm immensley looking forward to Recon Specialist Outriders supported by Jan Ors and Kyle Katarn with Ions.

There is a simple reason why especially in 60 min matches like we had the there was so many Falcon in the top 8. Actually there was not that many I think only 3 other players played Falcon and did not qualified for the top 8 (actually if I recall correctly none of them had gunner, but the double Falcon build did not had gunner either) . So 8 out of 28.

IN 60 minutes games, the Falcon is so tanks, that it is really hard to kill it other than if you play badly or your opponent rolls exceptionally good dices and you roll nothing. To give you an idea when my Han with gunner and Marksmanship + plus my 2 Rookies with Focus did not managed to destroy a Single Z in one turn in the quarter finals, I knew I was going to loose pretty fast.

Now what best to go with a really tanky ship that is almost impossible to kill and beats the odds of rolling bad dices... À ship that if you loose it, you loose only 12 points, but that can be a great blocker and usually last longer than a Tie.

The reroll and Marksmanship bonus beat the odd of rolling bad dices so much with Han than on multiple occasions throughout the tournament I was rolling 2 out 3 hits or 3 out of 4 hits with Han, that I was just rerolling. I still had 3 other attempts at rerolling 100% hits in one attack phase.

So best way to beat the luck:

- Having a really tanky ship that takes forever to destroy, can give you a 2 evade every turn task to 3P0 and the Falcon title

- Shooting first most of the time + 360 and boosting out of firing arcs and having the ability to reroll as much as 4 times in a single attack.

- Having a mini Squadron of Blockers and relatively hard to kill little ship that an still kill stuff and in some situations being ridiculously hard to kill (like in my quarter final match) and they cost only 12 points. So they give almost nothing to your opponent

It is not rocket science guys... It is the best build that defy the odds of the rolling dice game And does not put fate on rolling good evade dices to survive, but can get guaranteed evade every attack phase

There is a simple reason why especially in 60 min matches like we had the there was so many Falcon in the top 8. Actually there was not that many I think only 3 other players played Falcon and did not qualified for the top 8 (actually if I recall correctly none of them had gunner, but the double Falcon build did not had gunner either) . So 8 out of 28.

IN 60 minutes games, the Falcon is so tanks, that it is really hard to kill it other than if you play badly or your opponent rolls exceptionally good dices and you roll nothing. To give you an idea when my Han with gunner and Marksmanship + plus my 2 Rookies with Focus did not managed to destroy a Single Z in one turn in the quarter finals, I knew I was going to loose pretty fast.

Now what best to go with a really tanky ship that is almost impossible to kill and beats the odds of rolling bad dices... À ship that if you loose it, you loose only 12 points, but that can be a great blocker and usually last longer than a Tie.

The reroll and Marksmanship bonus beat the odd of rolling bad dices so much with Han than on multiple occasions throughout the tournament I was rolling 2 out 3 hits or 3 out of 4 hits with Han, that I was just rerolling. I still had 3 other attempts at rerolling 100% hits in one attack phase.

So best way to beat the luck:

- Having a really tanky ship that takes forever to destroy, can give you a 2 evade every turn task to 3P0 and the Falcon title

- Shooting first most of the time + 360 and boosting out of firing arcs and having the ability to reroll as much as 4 times in a single attack.

- Having a mini Squadron of Blockers and relatively hard to kill little ship that an still kill stuff and in some situations being ridiculously hard to kill (like in my quarter final match) and they cost only 12 points. So they give almost nothing to your opponent

It is not rocket science guys... It is the best build that defy the odds of the rolling dice game And does not put fate on rolling good evade dices to survive, but can get guaranteed evade every attack phase

A few rounds of focus fire take it down fast, even with 3PO and an Evade(which kills the Falcons Accuracy.)

Finding ways to mitigate this are great, but the Falcon is doing so well because it excels in lower ship count environments.

If you're running a 3 ship list you can do a max of 7-8 damage to it in a turn after 3P0. And that requires a lot of luck. If you throw four to five ships against the Falcon it goes down fast, but right now the only valid 4-5 ship builds involve Falcons and 4-Z-95s. A few Imperial Builds utilizing Shuttles and Firesprays might work, but Phantoms are still causing you problems.

I got lucky in my first Han encounter and my opponent forgot to set Han's dial. The next time I had to face Han it was in round 5, and I just threw 6 ships at him. I got shields off in one round and almost dead in the next. I lost out on shots from blocking as I was bumping into Han and he could not get away.

I learned before the tournament that I had to block and trap a YT or it was going to cause me problems.

I find the Han list very interesting. With an even 100pts it makes no attempt to gain initiative over a Vetran Instinct on Whisper. so this build just excepts that it will shot at whisper cloaked with a focus.

Han Solo + Predator + Millennium Falcon + Engine Upgrade + Luke Skywalker + C3-PO (64)

Bandit Squadron Pilot (12)

Bandit Squadron Pilot (12)

Bandit Squadron Pilot (12)

Does this list suffer defeat Vs a Tie Swarm? Does it need two different upgrade cards that require an action to use?

There was only 1 list running a Howlrunner based swarm at this event. I believe this created the perfect environment for this build to succeed. Predator is a brillent choice in this list as just in the top eight along there were 10 ships that trigger the 2 dice upgrade. If the squad filler of choice is going to be the Bandit, Predator just gets better. So can we I'm prove the match VS a swarm with giving up to much as it stands.

I got lucky in my first Han encounter and my opponent forgot to set Han's dial. The next time I had to face Han it was in round 5, and I just threw 6 ships at him. I got shields off in one round and almost dead in the next. I lost out on shots from blocking as I was bumping into Han and he could not get away.

I learned before the tournament that I had to block and trap a YT or it was going to cause me problems.

I've found that blocking a marksmaner Han/gunner build to be highly effective. Then focus fire on the falcon till he's dead. But it takes a min. of two rounds if blocking. If you can't pull that off, or it slips into three rounds of taking fire from the Falcon, it's almost game over for you.