Now, it apparently just refers to someone who merely has a differing opinion that you don't like. My, how the bar has fallen.

Absolute power? I believe you mean:

Only 41 posts and we all know not to disagree with you.

comparing the Rebel Alliance to 40s American military isn't just wrong isn't just wrong because Star Wars is in space and all

Man, Lucas watched a lot of World War II movies when coming up with Star Wars.

I would recommend anyone trying to figure out why OT movies work as well as they do should do the same.

I would recommend anyone trying to figure out why OT movies work as well as they do should do the same.

That's cool.

But the Star Wars movies can have a more inclusive and generally representative cast and still be good stories that invoke feelings of camaraderie, victory, success, and triumph against odds that those old war movies portrayed.

But the Star Wars movies can have a more inclusive and generally representative cast and still be good stories that invoke feelings of camaraderie, victory, success, and triumph against odds that those old war movies portrayed.

Is that really the issue? Or is it about damning him for choosing to invoke imagery of an iconic historical time?

I harken back to a movie a few years ago ol' GL was associated with. It was called Red Tails. I seem to recall a very African-American male cast. Maybe the producers of that movie should have strived to manufacturer reasons to bring in more non-African-American actors and maybe a few female leads into that story as well...

I would recommend anyone trying to figure out why OT movies work as well as they do should do the same.

If you watch akira kirasawa movies "the hidden fortresses" or "ran" they (IMHO) have the right feel for a OT movie.

That and every space combat should have WWII in mind. Since GL based all of the batrle of yavin on it. A B-17 against fw 109 translates well to the m. Falcons esva0e from the death star. And trench runs are like dam busters.

But the Star Wars movies can have a more inclusive and generally representative cast and still be good stories that invoke feelings of camaraderie, victory, success, and triumph against odds that those old war movies portrayed.

Is that really the issue? Or is it about damning him for choosing to invoke imagery of an iconic historical time?

I harken back to a movie a few years ago ol' GL was associated with. It was called Red Tails. I seem to recall a very African-American male cast. Maybe the producers of that movie should have strived to manufacturer reasons to bring in more non-African-American actors and maybe a few female leads into that story as well...

See, there's a difference between history and fantasy ...

Star Wars is not a World War II movie. There are inspirations from it, but there are also inspirations from Japanese films and pulp serials. Shouldn't all the characters be Japanese then? Shouldn't they be using swords instead of lightsabers? No, because Star Wars is not a Japanese samurai film with Japanese characters just as it is not a World War II film with mostly-white male soldiers. Nobody here is trying to say that Band of Brothers, for example, needed more racial diversity, or a couple women in the foxholes. Star Wars is completely removed from that. It's not beholden to any history in particular even if it may draw influence from it.

I would recommend anyone trying to figure out why OT movies work as well as they do should do the same.

That's cool.

But the Star Wars movies can have a more inclusive and generally representative cast and still be good stories that invoke feelings of camaraderie, victory, success, and triumph against odds that those old war movies portrayed.

I agree with you in principle. I really do. What I don't like though is the idea of having a check list when writing a script. I have one of those and one of those and one of those. It's just tacky and when I see it in other media, it sticks out like a poor thumb.

That being said, I'm a huge fan of X-Men comics which these days is predominantly female and I enjoy it just as much as I did when I was a kid and it was boy's club. I don't think having more women or some ethnic diversity would hurt the movies, in fact I think it would add much to the overall look and feel. I just hate the idea of diversity being reduced to a checklist.

Here's the other thing, I'm wondering about. Is it ok to make movies with just males or just females in the lead roles? Whether anyone likes them or not, there are a lot of films geared towards women with all female leading roles. Not as many of those as say movies about a bunch of males with big guns shooting things, but they're out there.

So I guess my question is, is the predominance of males or females a bad thing in all media or is this just an argument about Star Wars itsef?

Here's the other thing, I'm wondering about. Is it ok to make movies with just males or just females in the lead roles? Whether anyone likes them or not, there are a lot of films geared towards women with all female leading roles. Not as many of those as say movies about a bunch of males with big guns shooting things, but they're out there.

So I guess my question is, is the predominance of males or females a bad thing in all media or is this just an argument about Star Wars itsef?

I think it always comes down to the film. Star Wars and sci-fi have large, vocal fanbases and communities. Also very diverse communities. I think there are a lot of girls and women who would appreciate more female characters to cosplay as, for example, dark-skinned women in particular. And since Star Wars isn't tied to any of our history, politics, or Earth locations, there's no reason for it not to be an opportunity to more equally represent people.

I don't think that it's a "bad thing in all media" but I do think it should be considered when writing or casting a story. Are there genres or movies in particular that you think should or shouldn't be made more diverse? Obviously, historical films and biographies should try and stay true to the characters and the setting (place/time).

Here's the other thing, I'm wondering about. Is it ok to make movies with just males or just females in the lead roles? Whether anyone likes them or not, there are a lot of films geared towards women with all female leading roles. Not as many of those as say movies about a bunch of males with big guns shooting things, but they're out there.

So I guess my question is, is the predominance of males or females a bad thing in all media or is this just an argument about Star Wars itsef?

I think it always comes down to the film. Star Wars and sci-fi have large, vocal fanbases and communities. Also very diverse communities. I think there are a lot of girls and women who would appreciate more female characters to cosplay as, for example, dark-skinned women in particular. And since Star Wars isn't tied to any of our history, politics, or Earth locations, there's no reason for it not to be an opportunity to more equally represent people.

I don't think that it's a "bad thing in all media" but I do think it should be considered when writing or casting a story. Are there genres or movies in particular that you think should or shouldn't be made more diverse? Obviously, historical films and biographies should try and stay true to the characters and the setting (place/time).

Are there genres or movies that should be less diverse, you asked?

Off the top of my head, within your parameters, I can't think of something already made that should be less diverse. I'm not trying to argue that diversity is bad. As I've said before, in this thread, I think SW would be improved by diversity as long as it's not mandated.

If you want to be free to create exactly what you it is you want to create, you can't start the process by making sure there's an equal number of these people to those people. You have to let your ideas take you where they take you. What if I wrote a screenplay about growing up in a small Texas town and didn't include African American characters, because in this small town of 7,000, there was only one African American family and they didn't have kids that went to school. I'm not excluding anyone, by trying to portray an experience honestly. Where as, if I took that script and made sure gender and race were all equal among the cast, it's a different story. It's different characters, with different cultural backgrounds that will affect their decision making throughout the story.

On the flip side of this, I once had someone tell me that I should never write anything including characters of other races, because there's no way I could possibly understand them. I thought this was ridiculous really. Do they only want me to write about forty year old white dudes, reading comics and playing games? I can't understand what a man feels like when his girlfriend cheats on him, because our skin color is different?

There is more the discussion than just yes or no, agreeing or disagreeing. It's not an A or B type of answer. It may be A and B or even A+B+C. Even then that formula could change depending on what was being created.

Mostly I just don't like it when people tell others what to do.

On the flip side of this, I once had someone tell me that I should never write anything including characters of other races, because there's no way I could possibly understand them. I thought this was ridiculous really. Do they only want me to write about forty year old white dudes, reading comics and playing games? I can't understand what a man feels like when his girlfriend cheats on him, because our skin color is different?

That's really unfortunate. I've heard others say the same about themselves, that it's "too hard" to write a character of the opposite gender or that they "wouldn't know how" to write a black man. For some movies, like period dramas, that could be a very important consideration. But for many movies it just doesn't matter, because they're escapism anyway. Die Hard, The Matrix, The Terminator movies. You could swap genders and races around in those movies all day without it being all that necessary to change the plot or the characters' personalities.

I would have liked to see more women in the cast, but I think it's ok that there's not. I mean, who knows, maybe Ridley is playing the main character?

Oh, and I think the idea that the presence of females destroys some kind of military image the films are trying to create is fairly ridiculous.

Correct me if i'm wrong but did not George say at some point that he wanted to portray the Rebells like the Brits/Allies in WWII and therefore tried to stay close to those old war movies he saw?

Pictures comparing those have been made by others and no one can deny the (intended) resemblence.

Not to mention the OT was done 30 years ago, things were diffent in Hollywood back then.

As for what the PT did wrong ... i referr to Mr. Plinkett and his reviews.

Thankfully TCW did a great job at giving live to the universe with interesting characters and stories scattered throughout.

So i do have hope for the next triology to bring us more memorable characters.

Could they use more female characters? Yes, the OT was one big sausage fest.

Should they for PCs sake make it a straight 50/50 male/female ratio? No!

If it fits in the universal context? Yes!

I myself work in an office were 75% of the employees are female, so i'm the minority here. During my service time the numbers were the other way around, less than 10% females in the ranks.

Would i buy it if suddenly the Rebell troops would be 50/50 male/female? No, personal experience has me biased. I dare say personal experience has everyone biased.

Would i object if the focused heroes were equally male/female? Again if it fits the universal context then i would welcome it.

Just don't do it because it is considered PC. RL is not PC either.

See, there's a difference between history and fantasy ...

So what you are really saying is, "I allow arbitrary exceptions based on flavor."

You must be exhausted, having to go film to film all the time, giving your okay (or chastisements) on a case-by-case basis. Do they schedule appointments with you are do you just show up and surprise them, hoping to catch them with too many white males on a set at one time?

Star Wars is not a World War II movie. There are inspirations from it, but there are also inspirations from Japanese films and pulp serials.

Also virtually entirely male lead acted...

"Realism" - however you choose to define it - seems an odd argument for limiting roles for women in a space fantasy film.

"Because that's how it has been done before" is a silly argument full-stop.

But isn't it equally odd to somehow set arbitrary baselines, for same said space fantasy, in an effort to shoehorn it into conforming to real-world "standards"?

I mean, if someone wants to do a remake Amazon Women on the Moon, are you good folk going to demand men share equal representation? That's a space fantasy also, isn't it?

Also, unconfirmed anonymous sources have verified that at least half the alien patrons portrayed in Mos Eisley's cantina were female...

It would be, but I don't think that's what's going on. Girls/non-whites/the French/whoever like Star Wars want to see more people like them in the films. It's a desire that should do nothing to ruin anyone else's enjoyment, so why would that cause a problem?

Amazon Women on the Moon? No, I wouldn't be arguing for more men in that. The title would make me think wimins were vital to the plot of that one*.

Star Wars on the other hand doesn't require specific male or female roles (beyond those of established characters). Show me a cut of Empire where 75% of the guys in the trenches are gals and I wouldn't bat an eyelid - they'll die just as easily when the robot-camels come into view.

* No sarcasm. I may have misread your point, yeah? Okay, Star Wars is based on pulp adventure, but even from the start it wasn't a slave to every aspect of it - which is why it looked so junky and "used" rather than something more pulpy and garish like Flash Gordon (which is excellent in its own right). If GL was happy to change from the '40s formula then, why not continue that tradition now?

Girls/non-whites/the French/whoever like Star Wars want to see more people like them in the films. It's a desire that should do nothing to ruin anyone else's enjoyment

I think it is entirely possible such may decrease someone else's enjoyment and am trying to state why.

Essentially, for me, this is because it would make this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN8YIR60Ij0

less like

and I find, and have always found, the similarities very pleasing (in this case, stern faced commanders maintaining a stiff upper lip. Women running the ops center while the guys fly the planes and run around and stuff). As those similarities are decreased, I think I would find it less pleasing.

You can do with that information what you will, I guess, but I don't think it does anyone any good if the results of the new PC Star Wars is a bunch of guys standing around saying 'meh' and 'this was way more awesome before they forced the PC on it'.

Here is how I see this entire argument: If the next Star Wars trilogy is more gender and race inclusive, then more of our children (and really, these movies are for the children) will see more positive role models for themselves. Media like movies are highly influential. How many of us grew up in the 80s pretending we were Han Solo or Luke Skywalker? Who did my two younger sisters have to play as?

I don't see how having more would be bad for anyone. If this side of the argument wins, ccarlson101 and Sylpheed, you don't lose. Inclusivity is not a zero sum game.

However, if nothing changes and we just keep with the status quo. If our daughters and our sisters and if our friends from different racial backgrounds essentially have to continue being happy with what they get because nobody cried out for anything to change, then they lose out. They all lose out. Everything stays the same and nothing gets any better for anyone else.

I really don't see how that would be desirable when we all can see that there is a better path.

Meh. <shrug> I've been trying to remain lighthearted mostly, (hoping to) inject goofy, funny stuff into this entirely too somber discussion. But it feels like some people are working hard at being way too serious here on a silly gaming forum.

Deve Sunstriker , I wish I could Like a statement more than once.

Inclusivity is not a zero sum game.

I don't think you are going to be able to come up with a one size fits all fantasy that appeals equally to everyone. So it is zero sum. For some people to like it more others have to like it less.