Hey everyone,

I have been tossing around a bomber formation with some serious damage output and am at a bit of a conundrum as to which secondary weapon to put on my bombers. For the moment we are going to rule out assault missiles (my personal favorite) The idea is to get as much damage as possible in on the first pass via missile/torpedo volley w/ rerolls and then finish off what is left with normal shots getting my rerolls from Howlrunner. The list as it stands is:

Howlrunner
Captain Jonus
3x Scimitar Squadron Pilots with...

Proton Torpedo or Concussion Missiles or Cluster Missiles.

This is my current take and dilemma:

Proton torpedo gets the chance to change a face to a crit after Jonus reroll
Concussion missile gets the chance to change a face to a hit after Jonus reroll

These two are a bit of a wash, statistically speaking, though the slight edge goes to the Proton getting a crit vs. a normal hit.

The cluster missile get two separate shots that both benefit from rerolling two dice. Which should prove to be more efficient vs. 1 agility ships and those banking on focus/evade tokens, but seems very lackluster vs. 3 agility ships.

The Proton and Concussion can be used form distance while cluster can be unleashed up close. It would seem more likely that I would be getting range 2-3 shots with the volley compared to range 1-2.

For the more mathematically inclined, what has the best odds? Hard hitting 4 firepower or volleys of 3? Also how do the numbers break down vs. agility 1, 2 and 3?

I would like to hear some thoughts from you all. What has your experience been?

I'm running that list with one of each.

Concussion strips shields, proton finishes it off, cluster begins the job on whatever has AG1.

Cluster Missiles all the way.

I like Concussion without Jonus and Cluster with, and as you pointed out, Cluster is mostly good against lower agility targets. Since all four have their own situationally effective benefits they all are just as good as one another, but my heart is always set on the more reliable Concussion Missile.

I like Concussion without Jonus and Cluster with, and as you pointed out, Cluster is mostly good against lower agility targets. Since all four have their own situationally effective benefits they all are just as good as one another, but my heart is always set on the more reliable Concussion Missile.

As I have been thinking about this, it does seem to largely based on what I can expect to throw down with. Against the Empire The Proton/Concussion seem superior. Where as the cluster seems to shine against the Rebellion. It is a tough one...

The biggest question is whether or not you feel lucky enough to justify the dice for Cluster Missiles. It's not a bad weapon by any means, especially when aided with Jonus (or better yet, also being shot by Krassix Trelix!) but you pointed out it's flaw well enough on your own. If you feel confident you can really hurt someone with Cluster Missiles it's likely the better option.

Conversely, B-Wings are still very popular in the Rebellion meta at the moment, and making those guys suffer as an Empire player is very rewarding. Cluster Missiles are you friend against these guys and you're pretty likely to do another point of damage against them with it. Their high shield value negates any good chance of taking advantage of the benefits of most torpedo attacks, so I'd advise against them in that instance. In nearly every other case, Concussion.

The biggest question is whether or not you feel lucky enough to justify the dice for Cluster Missiles. It's not a bad weapon by any means, especially when aided with Jonus (or better yet, also being shot by Krassix Trelix!) but you pointed out it's flaw well enough on your own. If you feel confident you can really hurt someone with Cluster Missiles it's likely the better option.

Conversely, B-Wings are still very popular in the Rebellion meta at the moment, and making those guys suffer as an Empire player is very rewarding. Cluster Missiles are you friend against these guys and you're pretty likely to do another point of damage against them with it. Their high shield value negates any good chance of taking advantage of the benefits of most torpedo attacks, so I'd advise against them in that instance. In nearly every other case, Concussion.

Wouldn't the Y-Wing and YT-1300 suffer pretty hard from cluster missiles as well? As to the X-Wing, I feel it is six of one, half a dozen of the other. A strong case could be made for either. Until Rebel Aces comes out I am not all that concerned with A-Wings popping up. I guess it is a question of if I am more likely to see the beefy rebel ships or more numerous Imperial Ties...

Thinking I am going to have to play through a few rounds with both and see what I am feeling more comfortable with.

I only use Assault Missiles and Cluster Missiles on Bombers with an emphasis on the Assault Missiles. Works superb against swarms and the splash damage that can't be avoided is useful almost every time the Assaults are fired. The Cluster Missiles are intended for use against ships that only have one green die.

I rarely use bombs and think the'yre only good on pilots with higher PS like Jonus or one of the named Firespray pilots. I don't really see the sense in using Torpedoes on a Bomber rather than missiles.

I can see the sense of having a cheap bomb in the formation, if only to act as a deterent.

When combined with Jonus ability and without focus, between Proton torpedoes and Concussion missile, I prefer the Torpedoes. With 4 dice+2 possible reroll, you are highly likely to roll a focus. Statistically speaking, again without focus, I think you are slightly advantaged with the Torpedo, since a focus is considered a miss for the Missile and a blank a miss for the torpedo. Both can change one of those result into something else. The fact that the torpedo change it to a crit instead of a hit makes it slightly better, if the crit is useful and not just bounce on shield.

So, if you plan on making your shot with a focus token, you're better with the missile, if not, go with the torpedo.

As for the cluster, I personally like it when combine with Jonus. Against low agility ship, it can wreck havok from the start and give you a good edge. Against high agility ship, the first attack tend to strip the enemy from his token which gives you good odds for the second shot. Only drawback is its range.

So, it depends on where, what range, you are planning your first strike. Combined with Howlrunner, I would try to get my missile off at range 3 to deny my opponent the range defense bonus while getting it for my side. Then close by to range 1-2 to benefit from Howlrunner. So in my case, I would go with the torpedoes.

When combined with Jonus ability and without focus, between Proton torpedoes and Concussion missile, I prefer the Torpedoes. With 4 dice+2 possible reroll, you are highly likely to roll a focus. Statistically speaking, again without focus, I think you are slightly advantaged with the Torpedo, since a focus is considered a miss for the Missile and a blank a miss for the torpedo. Both can change one of those result into something else. The fact that the torpedo change it to a crit instead of a hit makes it slightly better, if the crit is useful and not just bounce on shield.

So, if you plan on making your shot with a focus token, you're better with the missile, if not, go with the torpedo.

As for the cluster, I personally like it when combine with Jonus. Against low agility ship, it can wreck havok from the start and give you a good edge. Against high agility ship, the first attack tend to strip the enemy from his token which gives you good odds for the second shot. Only drawback is its range.

So, it depends on where, what range, you are planning your first strike. Combined with Howlrunner, I would try to get my missile off at range 3 to deny my opponent the range defense bonus while getting it for my side. Then close by to range 1-2 to benefit from Howlrunner. So in my case, I would go with the torpedoes.

I think you are on to a good point with the range factor. At close range I can be unloading 3 shots a ships with rerolls compliments of Howlrunner. So while the cluster missiles are nice, I feel the proton torpedoes will be offering something more than the other options. Giving me painful range 3 damage and the tendency to land more critical hits.

Thanks for all the feedback everyone. Keep it coming if you have more to offer.

I have a completely different take on the range thing. Since you are using Scimitars, you will likely be moving first. I have in the past found it difficult to get the Target Lock that I will need to fire my ordnance when using Scimitars. They move up first, are just out of TL range, and have to focus. Then my opponent moves up into TL with his move and I am taking his alpha strike with nothing to fire back. Then the next turn, I move again, TL his ships. Then he moves up with a fast move or a boost and suddenly my Scimitars are now at Range 1 and can not shoot their fancy missiles.(and taking more shots to the face) A good opponent will make that happen. I like it better when I can control what range I will be in even if I am not sure of their movement. It is easier to guarantee range 1-2 than range 2-3. All that to say, I would vote for Cluster Missiles. If you are at range 2 still good to go, at range 1 still good to go. Also with 3 rolls each time with Jonus re roll, you are more likely to get more hits against low agility ships. And even with high agility ships the more dice they roll the more likely they are to fail some of them. In my opinion, 6 attack dice(up to 4 re rollable) versus 2 agility dice(low agility ships) or even 6 agility dice(high agility) beats 4 straight attacks(2 re rollable) versus 1 agiliy dice(low agility ships) or 3 agility dice(high agility ships) even with the buffs from rolling eyeballs(torps) and blanks(concussions). Especially on the second attack when they have already spent and focus or evades(most likely).

What about taking one less bomber and doubling up on ordnance? At range 3 unload a concussion, as range closes, hit them with a cluster. As soon as you pass, drop a couple of prox mines and watch em scramble. 3 bombers spaced out a little and dropping prox mines as soon as the enemy k turns and is stressed can ruin their day, especially if they are flying b wings with all that red on the dial. Give it a try. Granted, it's less hp, but you'll likely get more use out of Jonus. And you can use clusters and bombs in the furball if things don't go according to plan.

Or take concussion and bombs. The enemy will be reluctant to close with you, cause just before you pass, you can drop a prox mine right in his teeth that is almost impossible to avoid. Can you tell yet I like prox mines?

One idea I'm playing with is using Lambda with ion cannon alongside bombers.

The ion cannon will benefit from Jonus, making it more likely to hit, and the target will then be unable to rush the bombers, giving you more time to play with long ranged ordinance. Furthermore, if the opponent is relying on a formation, they have to choose between holding the whole formation back or breaking formation early. Imagine if that ion cannon shot had hit Howlrunner when fighting a swarm for example.

It's all depend what ships are you facing, if you are face ships with low agility like the MF, B-W, or Y-W, I recomend to use the Cluster Misslies, but in the other cases I recomended the use of the Proton T. or Concussion, both are more or less the same, greettings.

Or take concussion and bombs. The enemy will be reluctant to close with you, cause just before you pass, you can drop a prox mine right in his teeth that is almost impossible to avoid. Can you tell yet I like prox mines?

Could you elaborate on the use of the proximity mines. I am seeing these as very hard to deploy in a formation without hitting your own ships.

One idea I'm playing with is using Lambda with ion cannon alongside bombers.

The ion cannon will benefit from Jonus, making it more likely to hit, and the target will then be unable to rush the bombers, giving you more time to play with long ranged ordinance. Furthermore, if the opponent is relying on a formation, they have to choose between holding the whole formation back or breaking formation early. Imagine if that ion cannon shot had hit Howlrunner when fighting a swarm for example.

This offer an interesting thought. Would it be worthwhile to even consider a heavy laser cannon? While the ion has potential for disruption, the possibility of consistent 3-4 damage at range 3 without actions has merit.

What about taking one less bomber and doubling up on ordnance? At range 3 unload a concussion, as range closes, hit them with a cluster. As soon as you pass, drop a couple of prox mines and watch em scramble. 3 bombers spaced out a little and dropping prox mines as soon as the enemy k turns and is stressed can ruin their day, especially if they are flying b wings with all that red on the dial. Give it a try. Granted, it's less hp, but you'll likely get more use out of Jonus. And you can use clusters and bombs in the furball if things don't go according to plan.

I don't know in this case if I trust myself to only fly 4 ships here. Might be a little different if we were talking interceptors, but as these are largely agi 2 ships I am hesitant. One of the advantages of the currently proposed list is that the points are fairly evenly spread, which doesn't come back to bite me if time runs out. Versus four ships that cost considerably more, but haven't become any harder to kill...

Something like this?

Jonus /w Squad Leader

Scimitar /w Concussion, Cluster x 2

Omicron /w ION cannon, Engine Upgrade

One idea I'm playing with is using Lambda with ion cannon alongside bombers.

The ion cannon will benefit from Jonus, making it more likely to hit, and the target will then be unable to rush the bombers, giving you more time to play with long ranged ordinance. Furthermore, if the opponent is relying on a formation, they have to choose between holding the whole formation back or breaking formation early. Imagine if that ion cannon shot had hit Howlrunner when fighting a swarm for example.

I played a game with this recently. I used jedon and the shuttle title to give my bombers target lock even before range 3. I would say it worked rather well. But once that shuttle passes their line, it likely won't get to fight again. I think I'm going to try loading the shuttle with vader and maybe gunner. Expendable losses right?

An attack die is base 50% chance to hit. With rerolls or focus, it goes to 75% (slightly less with jonus' 2 rerolls). With focus and rerolls, you're looking at around 93%.

I started writing the script to calculate the true odds with cluster missiles and jonus, but it gets amazingly complicated when you consider focus tokens for you and your defender, particularly considering it would be technically 2 rounds of combat.

Playtesting with proton vs. cluster more and more is showing me that even more important that my target is which one am I more likely to use. That being said my experience has been that on my first pass the cluster are more likely to see use, but once the initial joust in through the proton torpedoes seem to shine more to hunt people down. Given the health and decent agility on bombers it seems reasonable that most if not all should live through a first pass.

That being said it poses another question, which am I more concerned with, a devastating alpha strike or to be able to consistently put damage on my opponent? Alpha strike has the obvious advantage of lowering the threat to myself, but leaves the risk of if it proves unsuccessful then things are just kind of out in the wind. Versus the ability to put the hurt and finish off damaged ships as the game goes.

I am pleasantly surprised with the nuance that these two options posses and how they can change the whole dynamic on how the ships flying them work...

One idea I'm playing with is using Lambda with ion cannon alongside bombers.

The ion cannon will benefit from Jonus, making it more likely to hit, and the target will then be unable to rush the bombers, giving you more time to play with long ranged ordinance. Furthermore, if the opponent is relying on a formation, they have to choose between holding the whole formation back or breaking formation early. Imagine if that ion cannon shot had hit Howlrunner when fighting a swarm for example.

I played a game with this recently. I used jedon and the shuttle title to give my bombers target lock even before range 3. I would say it worked rather well. But once that shuttle passes their line, it likely won't get to fight again. I think I'm going to try loading the shuttle with vader and maybe gunner. Expendable losses right?

An attack die is base 50% chance to hit. With rerolls or focus, it goes to 75% (slightly less with jonus' 2 rerolls). With focus and rerolls, you're looking at around 93%.

I started writing the script to calculate the true odds with cluster missiles and jonus, but it gets amazingly complicated when you consider focus tokens for you and your defender, particularly considering it would be technically 2 rounds of combat.

My calculations have proven equally complex. I am finding that with either proton or cluster using rerolls via Jonus is allowing for very reliable damage output, and similar can be said for the primary weapons via Howlrunner. Hence my affinity for the set up. Though if the damage will go through is a whole other story...

The Cluster seems like a great option to include either way.

Only A-Wings (currently even more unpopular than ever 'till the "fix" comes in) on the Rebel side and the TIE range (well, barring other Bombers should you run into any) really offer any problems for the Cluster Missile.

There are an ever increasing range of ships which are VERY vulnerable to Clusters as well, which will only make them an ever more popular option as well.

I've never been a fan of either the Proton or the Concussion, I'm not sure either is worth their points.

Personally I LOVE the Assault Missile and formation based play is important enough that they pay dividends,

Why write them off?

Proton torpedo gets the chance to change 2 faces to a crit after Jonus reroll

Concussion missile gets the chance to change 2 faces to a hit after Jonus reroll

Am I missing something in this discussion? Each weapon only allows you to change one die result per attack.

The Cluster seems like a great option to include either way.

Only A-Wings (currently even more unpopular than ever 'till the "fix" comes in) on the Rebel side and the TIE range (well, barring other Bombers should you run into any) really offer any problems for the Cluster Missile.

There are an ever increasing range of ships which are VERY vulnerable to Clusters as well, which will only make them an ever more popular option as well.

I've never been a fan of either the Proton or the Concussion, I'm not sure either is worth their points.

Personally I LOVE the Assault Missile and formation based play is important enough that they pay dividends,

Why write them off?

I would actually prefer to have assault missiles, but my primary concern is what do I lose to get them? The obvious would be Howlrunner getting dropped down, but my experience has been that she is crucial to deal with whatever lives through the initial volley as everything having only two firepower is lackluster at best. The other option would be the loss of a ship or losing Jonus and therefore the rerolls that make the secondary weapons so effective...

Proton torpedo gets the chance to change 2 faces to a crit after Jonus reroll

Concussion missile gets the chance to change 2 faces to a hit after Jonus reroll

Am I missing something in this discussion? Each weapon only allows you to change one die result per attack.

Sorry, my shorthand I was factoring in the rerolls. It has been edited.

Got to play through a few games today and am pleasantly surprised with the potency of this list. Ran with cluster missiles against Biggs Walks the Dogs and Dual Falcons. Was one damage away from dropping Chewbacca in one round of shooting. This goes on to support what has been said before in that cluster is superior against low agility targets, though I am finding the range factor (1-2 w/ cluster, 2-3 w/ proton) to be a big help, as I very rarely was in a position to get a range 3 shot and a target lock and often found myself at point blank range. Additionally Howlrunner consistently paid for herself after the missiles had been fired. Furthermore I wouldn't lose Jonus as he dramatically improves the reliability of the cluster missiles. So for what I am looking for this list holds up nicely. More to follow after I have tangled with some interceptors and a tie swarm or two...