I didn't include percentages for advantages, average number of successes or chances for more than 1 success, the percentage is for at least 1 net success. So yeah, advantages are important, but when shooting at someone success is "more important" than advantages, unless the goal is not to wound and harm the target, but then why shoot?

I can give you the numbers if you want, just for the sake of it:

AA DD S = success 35,1% for at least 1 success. At least 3 successes:3,4%; At least 2 advantages 7,3%; At least 2 threats 26,4%; Most likely success result 1 success; Average result 0,53 successes.

AA DD S B = success 44.1% for at least 1 success. At least 3 successes:6,9%; At least 2 advantages 19%; At least 2 threats 16,3%; Most likely success result 1 success; Average result 0,73 successes.

AA DD = success 43,5% for at least 1 success. At least 3 successes:4,8%; At least 2 advantages 9,9%; At least 2 threats 17,8%; Most likely success result 1 success; Average result 0,67 successes.

AA P DD S = success 56,7% for at least 1 success. At least 3 successes:13,9%; At least 2 advantages 19%; At least 2 threats 16,3%; Most likely success result 1 success; Average result 1,08 successes.

AA P DD S B = success 63,8% for at least 1 success. At least 3 successes:20,1%; At least 2 advantages 33,1%; At least 2 threats 9,9%; Most likely success result 1 success; Average result 1,34 successes.

AA P DD = success 65,1% for at least 1 success. At least 3 successes:18%; At least 2 advantages 23,9%; At least 2 threats 10,3%; Most likely success result 1 success; Average result 1,30 successes.

AA P DD C S = 39,5% for at least 1 success. At least 3 successes:7,6%; At least 2 advantages 12,1%; At least 2 threats 30,5%; Most likely success result 1 success; Average result 0,7 successes.

AA P DD C S B = 46,8% for at least 1 success. At least 3 successes:11,8%; At least 2 advantages 23%; At least 2 threats 20,7%; Most likely success result 1 success; Average result 0,9 successes.

AA P DD C = 46,7% for at least 1 success. At least 3 successes:10,1%; At least 2 advantages 15,4%; At least 2 threats 23,5%; Most likely success result 1 success; Average result 0,85 successes.

AA PP DD CC S = 42,4% for at least 1 success. At least 3 successes:11,7%; At least 2 advantages 15,7%; At least 2 threats 33%; Most likely success result 1 success; Average result 0,84 successes.

AA PP DD CC S B = 48,8% for at least 1 success. At least 3 successes:16%; At least 2 advantages 25,9%; At least 2 threats 23,7%; Most likely success result 1 success; Average result 1,05 successes.

AA PP DD CC = 48,8% for at least 1 success. At least 3 successes:14,6%; At least 2 advantages 19,2%; At least 2 threats 26,9%; Most likely success result 1 success; Average result 1,01 successes.

AA P DD SS = 48,6% for at least 1 success. At least 3 successes:10,7%; At least 2 advantages 14,9%; At least 2 threats 23,1%; Most likely success result 1 success; Average result 0,89 successes.

Aiming once:

AA P DD SS B = 56,1% for at least 1 success. At least 3 successes:15,9%; At least 2 advantages 27,5%; At least 2 threats 14,8%; Most likely success result 1 success; Average result 1,13 successes.

Aiming twice:

AA P DD SS B B = 62,8% for at least 1 success. At least 3 successes:21,8%; At least 2 advantages 41%; At least 2 threats 9,3%; Most likely success result 1 success; Average result 1,38 successes.

What about removing both setback dice? AA P DD = success 65,1% for at least 1 success. At least 3 successes:18%; At least 2 advantages 23,9%; At least 2 threats 10,3%; Most likely success result 1 success; Average result 1,30 successes.

So yes, if going for advantages at the cost of potential success, going for the boost die is the best choice, but sometimes success is more important than others. Still, it is a matter of prioritising and I think it can be useful. This is the fun with this system, the various axis of positive results are sort of inverted, success comes at the cost of advantage and vice versa.

Downgrading is a very underutilized opportunity in this system.

Since downgrading only ever converts red dice back to purple, and doesn't actually remove dice from the pool, in this instance it would have been a great benefit for, say, shooting into a melee where your marauder is mixing it up with the bad guy(s). Then you are using Precise Aim not to hit your friend. Which is a perfectly cool application and worth the expense of a maneuver and strain, IMO.

Oh well. I may actually consider this for my shortlist of house rules...

It'd make Assassins really good for taking down known, named badasses (y'know, them chaps with Adversary). That's quite appealing and "feels" right, given what the Career is supposed to be for . Good call.

If Precise Aim downgraded attacks, it would be good against enemies with Adversary (as mentioned), and it could potentially be used to offset the penalty inherent in using Sniper Shot.

Great conversation guys. When I was planning on building an Assassin I was planning on avoiding Precise Aim because I felt normal aiming was decent enough to use and I'd rather spend my XP on picking up other fun stuff first. I might be interested in Precise Aim if it still gave the aim bonus Boost Die or if it didn't cost strain or if it wasn't a maneuver. As written, and shape of the tree, I'd avoid it until maxing out the tree.

That being said, I wouldn't mind picking it up if it was on a tree and was a gateway talent to something that I actually wanted. It's a decent tool to have in the tool box, but if it's optional then I'll bypass it.

Just firing without any talent or manoeuvre spent aiming:

PPPP A DD SS = 82,2% (strain cost = 0)

Firing with 2 ranks of True Aim, and double aiming for two boost dice, if that's allowed(?):

PPPPP A DD SS BB = 93,6% (strain cost = 2)

This is my question too. Can you True Aim twice to upgrade twice? This seems ok with just one rank, but if you have two or more ranks of True Aim it starts getting crazy.

Just firing without any talent or manoeuvre spent aiming:

PPPP A DD SS = 82,2% (strain cost = 0)

Firing with 2 ranks of True Aim, and double aiming for two boost dice, if that's allowed(?):

PPPPP A DD SS BB = 93,6% (strain cost = 2)

This is my question too. Can you True Aim twice to upgrade twice? This seems ok with just one rank, but if you have two or more ranks of True Aim it starts getting crazy.

According to the short description in Doc's talent trees , you can only use True Aim once a round.

But don't worry. Your Mercenary Soldier can access the Sharpshooter talent tree from Age of Rebellion to get two more ranks of True Aim. Two yellow dice and one blue die for one maneuver? Yes please! Alas, I don't think either specialization gets the Dodge talents you might need to evade the books the DM will throw at you for making a hyper-focused character.

Great conversation guys. When I was planning on building an Assassin I was planning on avoiding Precise Aim because I felt normal aiming was decent enough to use and I'd rather spend my XP on picking up other fun stuff first. I might be interested in Precise Aim if it still gave the aim bonus Boost Die or if it didn't cost strain or if it wasn't a maneuver. As written, and shape of the tree, I'd avoid it until maxing out the tree.

That being said, I wouldn't mind picking it up if it was on a tree and was a gateway talent to something that I actually wanted. It's a decent tool to have in the tool box, but if it's optional then I'll bypass it.

Just firing without any talent or manoeuvre spent aiming:

PPPP A DD SS = 82,2% (strain cost = 0)

Firing with 2 ranks of True Aim, and double aiming for two boost dice, if that's allowed(?):

PPPPP A DD SS BB = 93,6% (strain cost = 2)

This is my question too. Can you True Aim twice to upgrade twice? This seems ok with just one rank, but if you have two or more ranks of True Aim it starts getting crazy.

Yeah, I've been thinking about that. I think it should be ok, you can only activate True Aim once, but that could be two upgrades and you get the normal boost die for aiming too (or two setback dice if going for specific location on target), but as far as I know there's nothing stopping you from aiming again, or before that (depending on how strict you want to interpret True Aim's wording) to get the second boost die into the mix.

I agree, you can still double Aim and then apply whatever True Aim upgrades you have purchased.

Bah. I still like my idea better. Having given it more thought, and with no one pointing out any egregious lapses in judgement on my part, I'm likely going to officially house rule it should a character decide to take it.

Test it. You'll notice it at some point if it becomes too crazy. then you can revert or change it even further! Yay for playtesting!

Downgrading is a very underutilized opportunity in this system.

Since downgrading only ever converts red dice back to purple, and doesn't actually remove dice from the pool, in this instance it would have been a great benefit for, say, shooting into a melee where your marauder is mixing it up with the bad guy(s). Then you are using Precise Aim not to hit your friend. Which is a perfectly cool application and worth the expense of a maneuver and strain, IMO.

Oh well. I may actually consider this for my shortlist of house rules...

Question: Since in the standard order of operations, the PC would have to spend the maneuver to use to Precise Aim before declaring their attack roll, if you're going to change the talent to instead downgrade the difficulty, wouldn't it be simpler to implement if the talent were an Incidental instead? Otherwise, they'd have no idea there are challenge dice to be negated until after they've declared which bad guy they are shooting at, and there's always the case of the GM spending a Destiny Point to make the target more difficult to hit, which the PC would have no way of anticipating until after they've declared their Action.

Something to consider when you try it this proposed change out at your table.

Correct me if I'm just mentally transferring this from another system, but can't you hold aim bonuses until you do something like move or shoot that would throw off your aim? So assuming a hidden sniper with little fear of discovery you could easily spend several turns aiming then precise aim and fire at the end for +2 boost and -whatever setbacks. Not s good in combat but a good way to open.

Correct me if I'm just mentally transferring this from another system, but can't you hold aim bonuses until you do something like move or shoot that would throw off your aim? So assuming a hidden sniper with little fear of discovery you could easily spend several turns aiming then precise aim and fire at the end for +2 boost and -whatever setbacks. Not s good in combat but a good way to open.

Yes, aim bonuses carry over until you either take the shot, move or take damage.

Correct me if I'm just mentally transferring this from another system, but can't you hold aim bonuses until you do something like move or shoot that would throw off your aim? So assuming a hidden sniper with little fear of discovery you could easily spend several turns aiming then precise aim and fire at the end for +2 boost and -whatever setbacks. Not s good in combat but a good way to open.

Yes! In fact this is the type of situation I always felt Precise Aim was meant for.

Snipers aren't usually running around in the middle of a battlefield. They're usually tucked away in a nest, and often are responsible for the opening shot of a combat. If they can stay hidden after the first shot, which Assassins are good at, they can begin the process again.

While I'll admit it's not the absolute must have talent for all Assassins, I've seen it put to good use in sniper situations.

Random question. Would you allow Precise Aim to do away with the Setback dice from aiming to hit a specific part of a target or an item carried? Maybe that's the point of this talent? To make it so that you can shoot guns out of people's hands easier?

Well the talent says specifically it reduces the target's defense, so probably not RAW, but it would certainly make the talent more appealing.

Well the talent says specifically it reduces the target's defense, so probably not RAW, but it would certainly make the talent more appealing.

That depends is a modifier due to target size defense?

To the silhouette entry!

I just wanted to give my 2cents on this. I play a Tech Mechanic and I took 2 talents that let me remove 2 setback whenever I do a mechanics check.

1. The GM is always adding setback to what appears to be 90% of the rolls we do, with good reason. So basically whenever we roll there are setback.

2. I hate having setback, I don't know about you guys but screw the math. It seems to me whenever I have setback they never roll blank, therefore they always effect the outcome.

3. My character is suppose to be a natural at mechanics. So I have 4 int and taking talents to remove setback seem to fit my backstory. and as we all know Backstory > Min/Max.

Just for full disclosure I stopped reading after the first 2 pages.

whafrog brought up a good point in another threat recently, which AFAICT hasn't been actually raised here, but eliminating Setback dice also reduces the cap on "bad stuff." So even if your good dice were mostly blank and your bad dice were mostly Threat, the maximum number of possible Threat is reduced. So for many situations, that can be worth the price of admission. If you want to have 0% chance of more than 6 Threat on a Hard check, for example, this talent is where it's at.

Just another factor to consider in the whole "removing setback vs adding boost."

_{my apologies if this has in fact already been addressed here.}

But adding Boost dice is statistically better at reducing Threat than removing Setbacks. There are 50% more Advantages on a Boost die than a Setback.

But adding Boost dice is statistically better at reducing Threat than removing Setbacks. There are 50% more Advantages on a Boost die than a Setback.

Not the point. He is referring to min and max threats and advantages, not average. It is the sure bet Vs the gamble. Both have pros and cons and it is up to a players preference or a characters methodology which should be focused on more.

Ok, min and max is fine too. 2 Boost dice can generate more Advantages than the number of Threats 2 Setback dice can generate, in a min/max comparison of Boost to Setback there is absolutely no comparison, Boost dice are far and away superior, they can, and will likely negate the Threat effect of two Setback while simultaneously adding more Advantages on top and potentially Successes as well.

Try it this way...

Can you roll Threats and Failures on Setback dice, while simultaneously rolling blanks on those Boost dice?

Compared to...

Can you roll Threats and Failures on eliminated Setback dice?

No. In a worst case scenario of all negative results getting something and all positives being blank removing setback is far better. you are minimizing your risks. You are still referring to averages. And why are you counting 2 boost to 2 setback? almost all setback reduction abilities take away two, but almost all boost add one, precisely for the reason you stated of boost dice being slightly stronger.

You are judging it by precognition, you can't know what you are going to roll. If you roll two boost dice and roll two setback dice you have a higher chance of both eliminating the effect of the Setbacks and adding beneficial outcomes. The argument that you are capping bad results is a false one because you are also capping positive ones by not rolling Boost dice. You are 50% more likely to add Advantages to your results by rolling the Boost dice as opposed to choosing to eliminate the Setbacks. The successes are a wash, if you are concerned about the results of two Setbacks you are statistically better off rolling two Boost dice than you are removing two Setbacks.

If you roll no Setbacks your result is zero, if you roll 2 Setbacks and 2 Boost, go ahead and input that into a probability calculator, the result will be positive. That means it is better to roll Boosts and Setbacks to get a positive result. You get no result from rolling nothing. If you roll the Boosts and Setbacks together, the dice are weighted positive.