I'm not trying to complain here, I just want to know what I'm not seeing in this talent.

Given that the positive dice generate slightly more powerful effects than their negative cousins I'm wondering under what circumstances you'd use Precise Aim ? Even if you've two ranks of it, is it worth bothering with? You could spend 2 strain to negate two Setback dice and shoot... or spend two strain to Aim twice and shoot.

I guess you could Aim twice on the first round then do a Precise Aim manoeuvre and fire on the second, but that's a big investment (10 xp for first rank, 25 for the second) for what's gotta be a rare circumstance.

I think Precise Aim will always be amongst those "why should I bother?" talents.

I agree that being able to negate a setback die from a target's defense doesn't have the same appeal as rolling a boost die, especially if the shooter has the True Aim talent.

Personally, I think the best solution would be to change Precise Aim to being an Incidental rather than a Maneuver to make it more appealing. Still keep the Strain cost though, so as to prevent players from using both Precise Aim and regular Aim (or True Aim) in tandem every single round.

It'll be for those people that want to nullify advantages like Defensive or deflection or cover.

I'm not a big fan of all these 'remove setback dice' talents like this. Bypass Security, Street Smarts, Convincing Demeanor, Precise Aim, they're all pretty,....meh, imo.

I don't see a reason not to use Precise Aim if an enemy has enough Defense. If I'm going after an enemy with 2 or more setback tied to them (Forsaken Jedi, enemy with Deflector Shield, or whatever), I'd probably rather spend 1 maneuver and 2 strain to remove 2 setback dice than to try and add 1 boost die to maybe counter them - THEN if I can do another maneuver, Aim or True Aim or whatever else. Heck, if not for the strain cost, I'd probably rather Precise Aim than normal Aim.

That being said, while it's one of those great talents for those few situations where you would need it, it, like a good number of shooting-related talents, are highly circumstantial.

Given that the positive dice generate slightly more powerful effects than their negative cousins I'm wondering under what circumstances you'd use Precise Aim ?

I would guess that it is for those players and occasions where gambling is not ideal.

To clarify what I mean by that:

I often play in another system (Exalted) that uses dice pools. In that system, characters often have abilities to increase their dice pools by "X", or to add up to "X/2" guaranteed successes before even rolling. Sometimes, you will want to max out your pool, and hope for a large number of successes, such as when first attacking an enemy. Sometimes, you will want to take those successes up front, such as when trying to stabilize a dying friend.

In Edge, this idea is even more important due to Advantage and Threat. Threat can, for example, be spent to give your enemy an extra Maneuver, or to distract an ally. If I am trying to pin down a tough target so it cannot flee, I might not want to risk giving them the two Threat they need to escape. Sometimes it might be safer to lose out on a Success or Advantage, than to risk the Threat.

Oh, and some players prefer to roleplay their character as being precise and reliable, as opposed to talented and lucky. That is a good reason, too.

Even if you've two ranks of it, is it worth bothering with? You could spend 2 strain to negate two Setback dice and shoot... or spend two strain to Aim twice and shoot.

In your example, the choices are spend 2 strain to negate two Setback dice and aim once , or spend two strain to aim twice.

I would rather take 2 setback dice away than add one boost.

Precise Aim might be useful for characters who suffer the critical injury that removes boost die from their checks.

Even if you've two ranks of it, is it worth bothering with? You could spend 2 strain to negate two Setback dice and shoot... or spend two strain to Aim twice and shoot.

In your example, the choices are spend 2 strain to negate two Setback dice and aim once , or spend two strain to aim twice.

I would rather take 2 setback dice away than add one boost.

Of course the flip side of the argument is I'd rather have something there on every combat check as opposed to one that's conditionally useful. That and I spend zero xp to just Aim, and I am spending xp for Precise Aim. In addition Boost dice are more helpful than Setbacks are detrimental.

I'm not a big fan of all these 'remove setback dice' talents like this. Bypass Security, Street Smarts, Convincing Demeanor, Precise Aim, they're all pretty,....meh, imo.

Really? I like them a lot. I'm very free with setback dice when I'm GMing specifically so my players will get a lot of mileage out of these talents. In my experience it really lets the characters shine at their chosen field, as opposed to someone who's just increased the relevant skill.

Those talents are secretly telling you how to get the most of GMing this system. Listen to them.

I'm with Krieger. I like the Talents that remove Setback, it lets the specialists shine with their skill rolls.

I have a player who quickly max'd out Agility by spending all starting XP on it, then racing to it on the talent tree. That player's character would negate the Pilot, and the Thief (Stealther). However, I use Setback dice to modify difficulty often as per suggested in the Core, so the Pilot and Thief are much better at what they do.

If you are tailoring dice rolls to these talents that's contrived, and it only proves they don't stand well on their own. People can do as they like but the numbers are the numbers and adding positive dice is a numerically more efficient way of offsetting Setbacks than spending xp on talents that remove them.

I think the implication is less contrivance and more that the developers intended addition of boost and setback dice to tailor dice pools rather than adding difficulty dice or upgrading the same on their own.

Well before this veers too far OT, the bottom line is whether it is better to add two Boost dice with Aim or better to remove 2 setback dice with Precise Aim, the answer is better to add 2 Boost dice.

I'm not a big fan of all these 'remove setback dice' talents like this. Bypass Security, Street Smarts, Convincing Demeanor, Precise Aim, they're all pretty,....meh, imo.

I'm with you on this one. I would have much rather prefered that the talent gave the player a boost die, instead of letting them remove a setback die (or adding a boost die if there are no setback die to remove), because if there are no setback die to remove, those type of talents are pretty much useless.

And while we're on the subject of Aim... I've been going through the forums, but there doesn't seem to be a clear answer (unless I'm missing it somewhere), can players take a 2nd Aim maneuver on their turn (in exchange for 2 strain), or does the strain cancel out the first aim? Has there been an official response about this?

Also, how do you handle aims that target a specific body part (instead of adding a boost die)? Let's say a player is aiming for an enemy's head... I was thinking that minions die if they get hit in the head, and Rivals only die from headshots if the player rolls a triumph. A Nemesis can never been headshotted (although this seems weird narratively). Any suggestions on this? (Sorry for borrowing your topic for these questions, Col. Orange. )

Well my perspective is that negative dice cancel positive dice, so setback dice negate boost dice - sure the boost dice have some better facings, but all in all the setback dice (potentially) remove successes and advantages. Also, less dice in the pool decreases range of potential results, in some cases to the player's advantage. Of course boost dice potentially increase the number of successes and advantages to be cancelled, but more dice in the pool - particularly difficulty, challenge and setback dice - means a less likely good outcome. Removing those is good a thing.

Also, adding setback dice should be common in my opinion, there are few circumstance where you perform a task in the absence of other factors that would or could affect the outcome, be it stress, light, weather, tools (or lack thereof), being wounded (strain, wound or a critical injury), not knowing important details that can or will affect the outcome... throwing in a setback dice should in my opinion be normal, two perhaps not so normal, but still not too infrequent.

I don't add Setback dice because of the Talents, I add Setback dice because there are setbacks. The talents then work fantastically in favor of the PC's specialized in that field.

Almost all situations in non-relaxed/ideal environments are going to have some sort of factors that add Setbacks and/or Boost dice to the pool. (As opposed to simply raising or upgrading the tasks difficulty, which isnt how the Core book describes it working per p.20)

Well before this veers too far OT, the bottom line is whether it is better to add two Boost dice with Aim or better to remove 2 setback dice with Precise Aim, the answer is better to add 2 Boost dice.

I beg to differ. This is not the question. The question is, "is it better to add one boost die with a single manoeuvre, or remove multiple setback dice with a single manoeuvre?". I think the answer gives itself. And yes, I say "multiple" even though the talent has only two ranks for now. With four more books of EotE specializations plus 19 AoR specializations I'm betting Precise Aim will show up somewhere else as well.

I don't add Setback dice because of the Talents, I add Setback dice because there are setbacks. The talents then work fantastically in favor of the PC's specialized in that field.

Almost all situations in non-relaxed/ideal environments are going to have some sort of factors that add Setbacks and/or Boost dice to the pool. (As opposed to simply raising or upgrading the tasks difficulty, which isnt how the Core book describes it working per p.20)

Yes. Exactly this. Is it dark? Setback die. Is it too hot or too cold? Setback die. Are you standing in/on a moving vehicle? Setback die. Is there sand in your blaster? Setback die. Using a less-travelled hyperspace lane? Setback die. I keep the difficulties relatively low, since the party only has about 350 XP each and it's a "low-level" campaign, and compensate with setback dice.

Even if you've two ranks of it, is it worth bothering with? You could spend 2 strain to negate two Setback dice and shoot... or spend two strain to Aim twice and shoot.

In your example, the choices are spend 2 strain to negate two Setback dice and aim once , or spend two strain to aim twice.

I would rather take 2 setback dice away than add one boost.

Using Precise Aim and a second maneuver to Aim would require four strain, not two. Are you saying Precise Aim adds a boost die, like a normal Aim maneuver? If so, where are you getting that? The description for the talent reads:

Precise Aim

Activation: Active (Maneuver)

Ranked: Yes

Trees: Assassin

Once per round on the character's turn, the character may perform a Precise Aim maneuver before attempting a combat check and suffer a number of strain. The number of strain cannot exceed his ranks in Precise Aim. He then decreases the target's defense (ranged and melee) by one per strain suffered for that combat check.

Since the description doesn't mention that the talent counts as aiming, I've always assumed it doesn't, despite the name. After all, True Aim specifically mentions that the character "gains all the benefits for aiming."

Even if you've two ranks of it, is it worth bothering with? You could spend 2 strain to negate two Setback dice and shoot... or spend two strain to Aim twice and shoot.

In your example, the choices are spend 2 strain to negate two Setback dice and aim once , or spend two strain to aim twice.

I would rather take 2 setback dice away than add one boost.

Using Precise Aim and a second maneuver to Aim would require four strain, not two. Are you saying Precise Aim adds a boost die, like a normal Aim maneuver? If so, where are you getting that? The description for the talent reads:

Precise Aim

Activation: Active (Maneuver)

Ranked: Yes

Trees: Assassin

Once per round on the character's turn, the character may perform a Precise Aim maneuver before attempting a combat check and suffer a number of strain. The number of strain cannot exceed his ranks in Precise Aim. He then decreases the target's defense (ranged and melee) by one per strain suffered for that combat check.

Since the description doesn't mention that the talent counts as aiming, I've always assumed it doesn't, despite the name. After all, True Aim specifically mentions that the character "gains all the benefits for aiming."

Fair enough. I was only focusing on the 2 strain for the extra maneuver.

I agree, though. This talent is an "in addition to" instead of a "rather than."

Fair enough. I was only focusing on the 2 strain for the extra maneuver.

Drat. I was hoping you knew something I didn't.

I agree, though. This talent is an "in addition to" instead of a "rather than."

I don't know if that's the intent, but it seems reasonable to me.

Thanks for the reply.

Well my perspective is that negative dice cancel positive dice, so setback dice negate boost dice - sure the boost dice have some better facings, but all in all the setback dice (potentially) remove successes and advantages. Also, less dice in the pool decreases range of potential results, in some cases to the player's advantage. Of course boost dice potentially increase the number of successes and advantages to be cancelled, but more dice in the pool - particularly difficulty, challenge and setback dice - means a less likely good outcome. Removing those is good a thing.

Also, adding setback dice should be common in my opinion, there are few circumstance where you perform a task in the absence of other factors that would or could affect the outcome, be it stress, light, weather, tools (or lack thereof), being wounded (strain, wound or a critical injury), not knowing important details that can or will affect the outcome... throwing in a setback dice should in my opinion be normal, two perhaps not so normal, but still not too infrequent.

There are 2 failures and 2 threats on a set back die. There are 2 successes and 4 advantages on a boost die. Adding boost dice will add more positively to a given roll than removing setbacks will protect positive results. The greens and yellows are also both skewed slightly better than the purples and reds. This isn't a debate, it is a mathematical certainty that adding positive dice is better than removing negatives at insuring a positive outcome.

I'm really honestly not looking to make anybody mad that is just the math.

Well before this veers too far OT, the bottom line is whether it is better to add two Boost dice with Aim or better to remove 2 setback dice with Precise Aim, the answer is better to add 2 Boost dice.

I beg to differ. This is not the question. The question is, "is it better to add one boost die with a single manoeuvre, or remove multiple setback dice with a single manoeuvre?". I think the answer gives itself. And yes, I say "multiple" even though the talent has only two ranks for now. With four more books of EotE specializations plus 19 AoR specializations I'm betting Precise Aim will show up somewhere else as well.

I don't add Setback dice because of the Talents, I add Setback dice because there are setbacks. The talents then work fantastically in favor of the PC's specialized in that field.

Almost all situations in non-relaxed/ideal environments are going to have some sort of factors that add Setbacks and/or Boost dice to the pool. (As opposed to simply raising or upgrading the tasks difficulty, which isnt how the Core book describes it working per p.20)

Yes. Exactly this. Is it dark? Setback die. Is it too hot or too cold? Setback die. Are you standing in/on a moving vehicle? Setback die. Is there sand in your blaster? Setback die. Using a less-travelled hyperspace lane? Setback die. I keep the difficulties relatively low, since the party only has about 350 XP each and it's a "low-level" campaign, and compensate with setback dice.

The question is, is it better to simply perform a maneuver that costs you no xp, or a talent you have spent 35 xp on. A single boost die can only add a single success, so the Precise Aim with two ranks will prevent the 1 in 9 chance of two failures on 2 setbacks. A single boost die though can add two advantages on 1 in 6 and two setback will only have two threats 1 in 9 times.

Precise Aim is also a combat talent, so it's in a combat tree, therefore skill level has to be brought into the picture as well. This is a BH talent so even if they are using Range(L), 35 points spent on skill would be better spent than on the talent. A single upgrade to the dice pool is going to be far more effective at offsetting setbacks.

Even if you've two ranks of it, is it worth bothering with? You could spend 2 strain to negate two Setback dice and shoot... or spend two strain to Aim twice and shoot.

In your example, the choices are spend 2 strain to negate two Setback dice and aim once , or spend two strain to aim twice.

I would rather take 2 setback dice away than add one boost.

Not exactly.

Assassin Bob (Ranged: Heavy YY G ) has both ranks of Precise Aim and is stalking one of two identical twins.

On his turn his manoeuvre is a Precise Aim manoeuvre (costing him 2 Strain). His action is an attack.

He's spent 2 Strain and 35 xp to negate 2 black dice (which won't always be present). [ YY G ]

Assassin Dave is as fast and accurate as Bob, but hasn't bought Precise Aim. Instead he's spent the points on upgrading his watercolouring skills as it's his sweetheart's birthday and the lady likes a nice landscape. But first he has to take out the other twin.

On his turn, Dave uses his manoeuvre to Aim. He then spends 2 Strain for a second manoeuvre, which is also an Aim. His action is an attack.

He's spent 2 Strain (same as Bob) and 0 xp to add 2 boost dice. [ YY G BB SS ]

Boosts > Setback, so Dave's pool is slightly better than Bob's, and it has cost him nothing. Bob could have also taken a second manoeuvre, but then he'd have spent 4 strain in one turn, which could be bad if the law or the bodyguards return fire with stun blasts.