Thusly I continue a debate without pursuing a third (Fourth? Fifth? Too lazy to count) derailment of another thread. For newcomers: previously I had said

To which there was a reply:

So while ak-73 references core fluff, rather than repeating that FFG fluff seems borked in so many ways (along with much GW fluff), I shall refrain from further neckbearding and point out that the Ultramar Empire Sector spans enough heavily populated systems to count as many billions. Their reach goes well beyond the sector as well, so I could see their fame spreading a good distance. However!

Rather than repeating the (in my opinion) necessarily localized nature of the reputation of any chapter (however well known, successor or not), I think the best the common man could hope for would be to admire, or even revere, the Emperor's Angels, or however they refer to these . Differentiating chapters accurately would be quite beyond them. Ultramar has an unusual, or even exceptional, advantage in this case due to how the Ultramarines (and their successors) have ruled the sector so closely. You won't see the Space Wolves holding self-indulgent parades, nor do the Dark Angels or the Black Templar have anywhere to hold self-indulgent parades were they so inclined (they aren't). The Blood Angels might except Baal is an irradiated rock of a wasteland and they're too busy painting portraits and being sophisticated (or emo). Chapters like the Imperial Fists or Crimson Fists might but only on very rare occasions- they wander just as far afield as the Blood Angels, and don't hold homecoming parties when they get back anyway.

In short, given the example chapters and traditions that we have, I can't imagine any chapter being well known across the Imperium. The common man would speak of the Emperor's Angels in the same way we might speak of angels, and they might talk about Astartes the same way we might refer to Seraphim or the other angelic orders. Only lords-general, lords-captain and sages specializing in the matter would be likely to know a great deal more.

At least, that's how I envision the fluff. This is, of course, open to debate (and it is welcome, from ak-73 or otherwise!)

This debate only makes sense in the context of "What is my interpretation of marines in general?" Because if one's interpretation is Movie Marines, then the fame will tend to be higher.

As for the quote above, it talks about the domains of the Emperor - fancy words for the Imperium of Man.

SImilarly the Blood Angels:

"The Blood Angels are the noble descendants of that most puissant and angelic of the primarchs - Sanguinius. They are perhaps one of the most celebrated chapters in the entire Imperium, their countless heroic deeds and victories known to untold billions of the Emperor’s subjects across the length and breadth of the Imperium. The beauteous angelic visages of the Chapter’s heroes adorn gothic facades and stained glass windows in a million holy basilicas, and their portraits gaze serenely from endlessly copied and much cherished illuminated tomes."

And the Space Wolves:

"Since the Imperium came into being, the Space Wolves have fought tooth and nail for the cause of the Emperor. Amongst the most famous of the Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes, their sagas are told from one end of the galaxy to the other."

Sure, one can quibble about the wording and certainly there is wiggle room but the spirit of these descriptions is quite clear and fits pretty much with the Epic Marines of DW.

Also, there is Common Lore (Astartes) (Not even Scholastic!):

"An understanding of the role, function, and nature of the famed Imperial Space Marines, as well as a knowledge of the commonly known Chapters and their practices and areas of operation."

I have no problem with anyone deviating from that, I have modified it a bit myself. But according to DW Core, some Astartes should be fairly famous. Particularly some First Foundings.

Alex

Alright, I can see C.Lore (AdAst) giving some knowledge re: famous chapters- but I could see C.Lore (Creed), (AdAst) giving some knowledge re: Primarchs. More people are going to have C.Lore (Creed), because the Imperium is full of happy little churchgoing faithful, and the Primarch fill the role of archangel to the God-Emperor of Mankind in the Imperial Creed. So they'll still be more famous. Also, I tend to assume that a lot of chapter-specific knowledge is part of the Forbidden Lore skill (because there is a F.Lore (AdAst)) and the C.Lore skill comes from ecclesiarchal teachings and readily available data.

I dunno. I may be misusing it, but part of the whole "Movie Marine" bit for me is the mystique of the Astartes. They aren't well known to the common folk or the guardsmen on the front lines, and I wouldn't expect Guardsman Bob to be able to differentiate between a Space Puppy thunderhawk and a Smurf thunderhawk. Heck, I wouldn't really expect him to be briefed on Astartes presence- I'd expect the Space Marines in question to come thundering in, flattening everything in their way, and then leave- and that poor guardsman isn't even going to have much of a story to tell beyond "once I saw His servants flatten a bunker."

I tend to subscribe to Abnett/ADB interpretations rather than FFG, both Abnett and ADB have demonstrated that the common folk are pretty much clueless where the big factions are concerned. I believe that most people don't know who the Tyranids are. Heck, a not insignificant portion of the population doesn't know that there are traitor marines- their version of the Imperial Creed just doesn't cover it. Eisenhorn is given a bolt pistol by a Deathwatch librarian, but he has no clue what chapter he came from- or at least, he doesn't mention any chapter markings. If you take the Eisenhorn trilogy at face value with the current incarnation of the DW assumed, you see an Ordo Xenos inquisitor who seems to know (or at least relates) very little about the inner workings of his Ordo's Chamber Militant.

So yeah, I do tend to assume ignorance. Even senior nobility might attempt to exert political pressure on the Astartes, because they think they can get away with it (spoilers- the answer is usually no) and they don't realize how apolitical the Astartes are (turns out, they're just barely political enough to know when to shoot the politics with a bolter).

I agree that the knowledge of the Chapters ir probably quite localized. Space marines are proud of their chapters and many make certain that people know which one they belong to but as the common folk do not really travel between planets the only ones who hear about the chapters are the ones on the world where the marines arrive.

...Which is either under attack and the Marines only stop there for the fighting, or they come to the planet to recruit aspirants. The fluff and BL books do mention worlds having legends about the chapters that previously saved the planet from whatever horror happened to visit it, but they are unlikely to know much about the thousand other chapters that are elsewhere in the galaxy.

Recruiting worlds are likely to see the marines more often, perhaps even once per generation, but they usually keep a distance from the commoners and fluff mentions all kinds of misconseptions and rumours about the marines as people really are ignorant about the details.

As for the Eisenhorn example, Annaamarth: Does the book specifically mention that he doesn't know what chapter the marine is from or doesn't he just mention it and refers to him as Deathwatch marine?

In the latter case you might be reading too much into it and Eisenhorn just doesn't consider the marine's chapter to be a relevant thing to mention or to linger on.

Hmm, personally, I believe my own interpretation is somewhere in the middle of all the answers provided so far, and the source material offers a wide range of possibilities. In my opinion, a Chapter would of course be known on its own homeworld - often, but even there not always under its Chapter name. Which might make sense insofar as that I'd assume Chapter names to conform to the Imperium's universal language rather than local dialect, under which the Space Marines may be known only as whatever translation its people have for stuff like "angels of death" or "sky warriors" or whatever.

Many worlds may have legends or even statues and shrines dedicated to specific warriors of the Adeptus Astartes, who, in the planet's past, have visited to deliver them from some sort of threat. However, just like it happens in the real world, this kind of knowledge about the past may fade and become distorted, and it's been 10,000 years since the Space Marines began their eternal war. Consider how much history has been forgotten in the real world, and you'll see what I mean. This is further stressed both in the 6E TT core rulebook, as well as various authors' explanation on why all of 40k fluff is so inconsistent (the "in-universe cop-out" about everything being legends and myths).

In a way, this perspective even de-values the FFG quotes ak-73 posted here, whilst at the same time incorporating them. Yes, stories about the Ultramarines and the Space Wolves may be told in a lot of places. The same goes for a lot of real world legends and myths, yet we have no idea how much of it is true or fabricated, or whether the names that accompany them are the correct ones, have been bastardised over generations of retellings, or actually come from entirely different personae. Want an example? King Arthur. And it's not even been 1,000 years.

I guess ultimately it depends once again on how we wish to perceive this setting - a dark, gritty universe, filled with dystopia and the lament of lost knowledge, or a high-fantasy epic tale about heroism and the struggle of a chosen few divine warriors against the darkness that seeks to devour the last remnants of hope. Or anything in-between (though I find most interpretations I've heard so far have a strong tendency to either extreme rather than a balance).

Alright, I can see C.Lore (AdAst) giving some knowledge re: famous chapters- but I could see C.Lore (Creed), (AdAst) giving some knowledge re: Primarchs. More people are going to have C.Lore (Creed), because the Imperium is full of happy little churchgoing faithful, and the Primarch fill the role of archangel to the God-Emperor of Mankind in the Imperial Creed. So they'll still be more famous. Also, I tend to assume that a lot of chapter-specific knowledge is part of the Forbidden Lore skill (because there is a F.Lore (AdAst)) and the C.Lore skill comes from ecclesiarchal teachings and readily available data.

I tend to use FL (specific chapter) for that.

Remembering the official teachings about astartes history, venerated heroes, planets and chapters can require an +10 to -10 CL (AdAs) test.

Remembering their history which includes for example thunder warriors, first failed experiments and problems and excludes much of imperial propaganda or knowing that a lot of chapters turned into objects of devotion across the Imperium are prone to gene-seed deviations which turn holy angels into something very disturbing requires either hellish CL or hard FL (AdAs) test.

Remembering that Exorcist willingly host daemons inside their recruits is simply not possible with CL (AdAst), require a hellish FL (AdAst) or difficult FL (Exorcists) test.

The one real shame about these Skills is that, by all rights, they should be Chapter-specific, rather than One Skill To Know Them All. At least as far as detailed history is concerned, as opposed to general knowledge about what Space Marines as a whole are, or what role they play/ed etc.

Of course, the same can be said about individual Guard regiments, SoB Orders, even local interpretations of the faith.

Reputation should be tracked independently as well. Hmm .. makes me wonder if there was a way to incorporate reputation with how well the other party is actually informed.

It all depends on how reputation spreads or gets maintained, doesn't it?

In my world, the Ultramarines symbol itself is quite recognizable. Select civilians and many military men will know what it stands for. The Blood Angels' fame gets spread through the Ecclesiarchy, although the depictations will probably not be precise at all, with wings and halos and all. They and their primarch are just so exploitable. The Space Wolves, being the common man's chapter in my world, will simply be talked about by void-farers at ports across the Imperium. From there, the stories take on a life of their own (more than usual, that is). Bored hive gangers might inflate the stories they heard even further and so on. Which may lead to an attitude of "There is normal, aloof Astartes and then there is Space Wolves".

Alex

See, this is why I moved this into a different thread- this is worthy of one all it's own.

I want to emphasize that I love every point made thus far: Chaplain, Lyn, I agree that F.Lore (AdAst) should be chapter specific. For example, take it for the Ultramarines and you might learn that Guilliman is in statis... and might be healing. Take it for the Dark Angels and you might learn that there is a dark secret. Take it for the Blood Angels, and you learn about the Red Thirst. Take it for the wolves and you learn more about the lost 13th company. Some may think that this is harsh of me- to require that much more xp be spent to learn more secrets about each chapter- but I find it wholly keeping with the game world. I'm preparing to run a DH/RT/DW mashup based on the BC rules template (it's every bit as complicated as it sounds, but it's actually coming together nicely) featuring a Magos who knows a little bit about the Fallen and a Dark Angels Interrogator Chaplain and his unarmed infiltration vessel (I've posted the stats for it elsewhere, or similar stats). Turns out, they both have F.Lore Dark Angels, but the Interrogator Chaplain also has F.Lore Inner Circle and Ciphers Inner Circle.

Lyn, your interpretation of fluff as I read it (stories are told and propagate, legends of the chapters of the Astartes are passed along, but there is some corruption of those stories as they are retold) is actually very similar to mine. Like I said, the natives of Fenris know about the Great Wolf Warriors. While the natives of Baal won't know who the Blood Angels are, ask about the Sky Heroes (or something) and they'll know who you mean. Meanwhile, voidfarers and hive worlds across the Imperium will have legends of one chapter or another- but they won't know details. I like Brothers of the Snake (yes, more Abnett) as an example- a warrior is summoned by a protected world, but the protected world has no accurate expectations of the support they receive. They get one warrior where they had expected many, and he's awfully congenial for a Angel of Death.

AK-73, while I don't use the same interpretation of fluff as yours I do very much admire your interpretation. While I feel that your interpretation of Astartes is more Wardian than mine (if you'll forgive the term), I am impressed by how internally consistent you've made it. Spaces Wolves are more friendly than others, Ultramarines do maintain a PR campaign and Blood Angels (and maybe Dark Angels, Black Templar and Imperial Fists) are awfully exploitable by the Ecclesiarchy.

As per usual, our interpretations are very similar- they simply fall on different places on a sliding spectrum. I'm cool with that

Sidenote:

and Blood Angels (and maybe Dark Angels, Black Templar and Imperial Fists) are awfully exploitable by the Ecclesiarchy

Though there was a bit of Codex fluff about the Ecclesiarchy as a whole actually being a bit conflicted about the Space Marines, as their heroic past is "tainted" by them not being as human as the Imperial Cult's narrow definition concerning genetic purity would like. That, and most of the Marines don't agree with the Big E being a true god, which creates quite a bit of potential for conflict. So personally I don't really see the Ecclesiarchy going around erecting statues for random Marine heroes rather than human saints. Marine statues (and similar memorials) would be more of a thing for the local government to erect, as a "thankyou" for assistance some Chapter has provided with a threat in the past.

Lyn, well phrased. I actually like the idea of the Ecclesiarchy using their political opponents for propaganda on their own terms though ("We only meant to honour you. Would you dishonour your Primarch by refuting our praise?"). I could see it backfiring when the Chapter in question shows up because (as I've stated before) Astartes generally aren't political animals, but it seems like a human way to try to get leverage over a rival. Sort of like " damning with faint praise ." (linked to allow concept to be conveyed despite filters).

side note:

I forgot to address Askold, my bad. I didn't mean to forget you, but you did make as good a point as everyone else

Yes, Askold, my interpretation of Eisenhorn is specifically interpreted in this way because it pleases me to do so. He interacts with several DW marines including a Librarian (who gives him a mastercraft bolt pistol) who cracks a smile at Eisenhorn's stories (E. is particularly proud of this) and a Watch Captain who was shy about asking how Eisenhorn defeated a traitor marine in close combat (it was through trickery, not main strength or combat skill, don't worry), so he asked the Librarian to ask for him. E. never brings up chapter emblems or trappings, but this is may be because the iteration of DW fluff that existed at the time hadn't caught up to where it is now, with chapter emblems and trappings being a thing and whatnot. I am not sure, but I suspect it's a matter of fluff artefacts like that. However, because it pleases me to interpret matters in this way, I do so- that's why I included the "if you take it at face value" caveat, but I should have been more clear- particularly when I am self-aware enough to know when I am manipulating fluff for my own purpose and pleasure

Annaamarth

I would like to see/join your mashup! It sounds interesting indeed.

As for unfair xp costs for specialized lore skills - it is possible to solve the problem by halving xp cost but asking players to roleplay in game the way they got their hands on this specific FL - and how much will it cost them besides the xp. Remember - forbidden lore is forbidden for a good reason - knowledge itself can corrupt, a lot of organisations man-hunt those qurious ones who delve too deep, and in a state which calls ignorance a virtue even looking for knowledge outside required minimum for serving your role in the system will draw attention.

I actually like the idea of the Ecclesiarchy using their political opponents for propaganda on their own terms though ("We only meant to honour you. Would you dishonour your Primarch by refuting our praise?").

Ooh, that's a good point - though I wasn't referring to Primarchs, that's why I mentioned "random" Marine heroes. I should have probably expressed that clearer, though. I recall reading that Sanguinius at least was revered as an Imperial saint, and though I don't remember the source (or even if I read it myself, or am just referring to another poster claiming so) it fits into my perspective.

Essentially, what I'm trying to say is that the Ecclesiarchy might regard the Primarchs as entirely different beings from the modern day Space Marines, regardless of the genetical connection between them. Needless to say, much of this perceived difference might likewise be the result of myths and legends, that contrast heavily to how a Primarch's Marines actually perform and behave when witnessed "live" in M41. A sort of "reality shock" that may even see an Imperial official accuse a Space Marine of being a disgrace in the eyes of their Primarch! Or seeing a Primarch not as a Space Marine, but an entirely different beast (like a saint, in Sanguinius' case). Lots of potential for conflict here, too.

E. never brings up chapter emblems or trappings, but this is may be because the iteration of DW fluff that existed at the time hadn't caught up to where it is now, with chapter emblems and trappings being a thing and whatnot.

Ah, this stuff already existed at least as far back as the Index Astartes article (so about 2001 I think). Maybe it's really just that DW Marines are perceived as being DW first, though it could also just be how this one character sees things. That said, the "Abnettverse" has some different interpretations on stuff, anyways.

On a sidenote:

a Watch Captain who [...]

Now I'm curious! Is this where the term comes from? GW just called Deathwatch Kill-team leaders "Deathwatch Captains", and I assumed that FFG's "Watch Captain" (who also has a notably different rule in that he's not a team leader but base commander) was an invention of their own writers. Was this perhaps adopted from Abnett's novels, then, much like a lot of fluff in the Dark Heresy background?

As for unfair xp costs for specialized lore skills - it is possible to solve the problem by halving xp cost but asking players to roleplay in game the way they got their hands on this specific FL - and how much will it cost them besides the xp.

This sounds like a good idea. I could also see XP costs depending on how (relatively) easily accessible this information is. For example, "Scholastic Lore (Ultramarines)" might be half the cost, whereas "Scholastic Lore (Dark Angels)" could be double ... and/or in the case of Forbidden Lore even see the character in question having to launch and roleplay his investigation as a small mission in their own right!

Xenos, the first Eisenhorn book, came out in May 2001 - which means it was being written well before then. This may support the fluff-artefact argument. Also, I don't recall whether the watch-captain was described as such- he may have simply been referred to as a Captain or Commander. Unfortunately, I never personally shelled out for the Total Recall talent.

Chaplain, the game (still in prep phase and likely to be so for some time) is (at this time) intended to be a meatspace game with my local gaming group. If I read your profile correctly, you are in Belarus? This puts you rather outside of easy commute range of northwest USA, I think. I could, however, show you prep materials I have up, but it's all improvised as all git out, as necessitated by using the Black Crusade system to run a bunch of people who are... well, no more renegade than your average Rogue Trader anyway. No insanity rules in BC, using the ship rules from RT but with BC skills. At least since this is an Ascension level game (or so) I'm justified in leaving Infamy (in this case Influence) unmodified, although balancing profit factor is proving interesting.

I'm using BC because I don't have DH 2.0 and BC is the best system for modelling both Astartes and Humans. I could have tried to hack Only War (Stupid Clausewitz- I always want to type that as On War), but that would have made for a much lower power game- which was not what the group wanted.

Anyways, all and sundry can PM me if interested in looking at the material.

Ever since Rolemaster I avoid narrow skill specialization. From running Shadowrun I have learned that it's better to take a knowledge skill for the abstraction that is and have the player(s) roll against it subject to appropriate difficulty modifiers and have them record the results (if it's important).

Example: Your PC has Forbidden Lore (Astartes) and wants to know what he knows about the Blood Angels' Red Thirst and Black Rage. The PC rolls against FL(A)-10 and depending on how good he rolls, he might know rumours of various degrees. Th player notes the information. If the same PC wants to know what he knows about the Storm Wardens history, he makes another roll, probably at -30 because they are an entirely local force and reclusive at that.

The modifiers of course have to be adjusted ad hoc by the GM depending on the back story of the PC as well as chapter history and localization.

Alex

Hey, you played chartmaster too! My objection wasn't specialization, it was absurd charts for everything. For those who don't know: every weapon had it's own damage table to see how it would interact with every sort of armour. Each of these tables was a page long. Most games you can get by with a character sheet and a quick reference table. In Rolemaster, you needed a five page portfolio, and heaven help you if you were a magic-user!

I try to solve the specialized lore skill problem by heavily discounting lore skills to begin with. The discount goes up the more you get (because the more you know, the easier it is to learn more), but I also don't really object to generalization. I just don't see why someone who has researched the Blood Angels and the Space Wolves should know anything about the Dark Angels Inner Circle.

F.Lore (AdAst) is sufficient to get a roll to learn about the Black Rage (at a significant penalty). 1 DoS nets you "The BA have a seeeecret." 12 Dos nets you most of the details.

F.Lore (Blood Angels) by contrast, would have no penalty. 1 DoS would net "The BA have a dark seeeeecret," 4 DoS would net most of the details and 10 DoS would tell you about every Black Rage related sordid tale ever (not really, because ignorance in 40, but still).

Personally, I would probably not discount them heavily - but simply accept that there is no individual in the Imperium who will have a deep insight into more than a few Chapters. And that's if we include Inquisitors who specialise on investigating Space Marines!

(you may regard this as an advice on what to do with the many XP that an Ascended Inquisitor in a DW game would have)

To me, knowledge being limited is a part of the atmosphere of the setting. Plus, just because the character doesn't know it does not mean they cannot find out. That's what contacts and influence are for.

Annaamarth, yes, unfortunately, we won't be able to meet IRL for a gaming session. Still, there is a topic with AAR's of adventures on this forum - and I do believe you will have a story or two to post

Personally, I would probably not discount them heavily - but simply accept that there is no individual in the Imperium who will have a deep insight into more than a few Chapters. And that's if we include Inquisitors who specialise on investigating Space Marines!

(you may regard this as an advice on what to do with the many XP that an Ascended Inquisitor in a DW game would have)

To me, knowledge being limited is a part of the atmosphere of the setting. Plus, just because the character doesn't know it does not mean they cannot find out. That's what contacts and influence are for.

Well, two points:

A. I should have added that I consider for some secrets a minimum advance. For example, knowing about the existence of the Grey Knights requires FL(Inquisition)+20 in my game. No chance to even roll without it.

B. If knowing about the Fallen requires FL(Astartes+20) and requires, say, 4 DoS, then probability should ensure that a given PC knows only about a handful of chapters.

The thing about abstractions is that they simplify things at the expense of detail. I am willing to make that sacrifice here, especially since it's not a central issue. If a given PC knows too much, I can, as a GM, always rule: "No, you don't get to roll for the chapter secrets here. Your PC does not know them."

I want simplicity on side issues. More simulationist-inclined GMs might see it differently.

Alex

Remember, marine chapters are held up as angels in propaganda so anyone looking for their major public exploits shouldn't have a hard time finding their tales. I would say then that it would be a common lore skill modified by physical proximity to chapters area of operation.

As analogy i would point to the european heraldry. Anyone today researching the famous knights and houses would get plenty of data including heraldry. Correcting myths with facts and lesser known flaws are harder to come by. Visiting the nation where the knight was from would turn up even more data.

I agree with everyone.

Then again, everything you have been told is a lie.

I've always run my games with the underlying premise that the Emperor is monolithic evil incarnate. It's never come into play. It's just something I like to keep in the back of my mind. GW tries to play him off as the best that ever happened to mankind (with some notable exceptions). I just don't like that angle. Ambitious people aren't nice people. Other people are merely rungs to step on in the quest for a better view.

The fluff used to be a lot darker back then - even or actually especially the fluff from GW. For some reason a lot of stuff, particularly where the Space Marines are concerned, is getting turned into Brighthammer nowadays simply by withholding certain details from ye olde days. I'm assuming they think Astartes would sell less if they'd besmirch their current glorious space knight image.

Does anyone remember that White Dwarf article about how new Chapters get created? The bit about the "test-slaves" who spend their entire life strapped into experimentation pods, quite conscious, serving the Imperium as human incubators for Space Marine progenoids which are harvested upon reaching maturity, and then implanted into more slaves, until they have enough for 1.000 Astartes? Daaaamn, now that's what I call Grimdark with a capital G.

Or this one here:

I'm old. Most of my White Dwarfs cover D&D, Traveller, and Runequest, all of which I was into back then.

Respect!

I miss those days of innocence .. back when the franchise itself still felt like a hobby.

Though I still think they were pushing the games they were selling/distributing back then.

Well, if one of my players was to choose a Space Marine as a psychotic killer, they'd certainly hear no complaints from me.

Alex