Evening all,

I was wondering what peoples thoughts are regarding the Tech Use and the niche uses of this. It has basically come up as a result of a current character I'm using, a saboteur like character. In the recent rule set, Demolitions has been merged into Tech Use.

The problem I have though is that because I have this skill, under the description of the skill I should be able to manipulate a lot of machinery and equipment but I do not agree with this. A person specialised in planting blocks of demo charges does not suddenly become proficient in fixing an engine or rewiring a cogitator and yet technically I now am. The GM agreed with that when it came to identifying an ancient teleporter. My tech use isnt sufficient for me to be able to manipulate it since my experience is a niche area of the skill.

So to cut to the chase, I can see why they did it I guess but I'm not overly plussed with it myself. So should the Tech Use skill be made a skill with specialities like the Operate (which has Tank, Walker, Personal etc), so it would have options such as:

Tech Use (Repair)

Tech Use (Demotions)
Tech Use (Machinery)

What then are the opinions of the community on this?

Demolitions has come a long way from sticks of dynamite taped together with a fuse.

Demolitions are chalk-full of electronics and an entrepreneurial individual can rig up said explosives with many different kinds of triggers; from an old-fashioned fire-lit fuse to a high-tech detonator connected to a microbead.

In addition, knowing where to plant those blocks of charges is also a technical matter; you need to assess a structures' weak-points in order to know the most effective placement.

Basically, you need to know more than how to stick a string into a lump of clay.

But I see your plight; you're wishing that there was a greater separation between some skills. But here's the thing; Black Crusade has specifically generalized a lot of skills because of the scale of its heroes. Just take it as a perk; you can do that other stuff, but unless you take a bunch of the Tech-Use talents, have a high INT like the more traditional Heretek tends to have, etc. you're only going to be so good at what you're doing.

An alternative to this is that you could instead ask the GM for a talent that gives a specialized bonus to a skill; like, you get a +10 skill bonus when rolling Tech-Use in regards to Demolitions. This provides the separation you're looking for without having to fragment skills into a bazillion different iterations of themselves, like how the Lore skill already is.

Demolitions used to be its own skill, but they condensed it into tech use to simply the skill list. DW and DH both have it separated out if you want to see rules for it by itself. It means your players will have to spend more xp to get the same knowledge.

To me, it's incredibly strange to have Tech-Use as a replacement for Demolitions. Demolitions encompasses not only everything from sticks of dynamite to a fuse, but also the production of said demolitions (which may in no way include anything that I'd expect to be covered by Tech-Use), and more importantly; the ability to judge where to place explosives, or judge the structural integrity of a building.

Demolitions is one of the skills which removal never made any sense to me whatsoever.

Roll Tech-Use to determine where you'd be best served to place explosives to bring down this derelict building? Ummm.. no.

Roll Tech-Use to determine where you'd be best served to place explosives to bring down this derelict building? Ummm.. no.

I could even understand this, or place it under Logic.

But making it? No. That's another skill, probably some of the chemical knowledge that was swallowed by Medicae, where it doesn't belong either.

There was a conscious effort to reduce the skill list, but some of the decission made in that effort make very little sense to me - especially as the trade skills were retained but largely stripped of purpose*.

* Except to some degree Trade Armourer, to modify guns.

I know it existed in previous skill books and the full rules are available, just not sure of the logic for condensing it down considering the purposes of Demolitions. As Fgdsfg mentioned, the skill was not just about knowing how to arm them but the skill in where to place them and again, knowing how to work a computer or manipulate an ancient device does not tell you that the best place to plant a demo pack to bring down the wall is to place it between the fifth and sixth support pillar.

Originally in order to do this you might have needed to do two demolition checks or an extended test to achieve it. One to identify a good place to plant it and another to arm it properly. Needs one skill and one specialisation to become a master of. Now though you'll probably need to use Awareness check to spot it (as there's no longer evaluate or similar due to no specific demolitions) and Tech Use to actually arm it. So now the action requires two separate skill tests to complete which overcomplicates it a little further.

I agree that tech use also incompasses making tech items (obliterating the need for trade skill), using them and demo makes it a bit much under on skill.

To me, it's incredibly strange to have Tech-Use as a replacement for Demolitions. Demolitions encompasses not only everything from sticks of dynamite to a fuse, but also the production of said demolitions (which may in no way include anything that I'd expect to be covered by Tech-Use), and more importantly; the ability to judge where to place explosives, or judge the structural integrity of a building.

Demolitions is one of the skills which removal never made any sense to me whatsoever.

Roll Tech-Use to determine where you'd be best served to place explosives to bring down this derelict building? Ummm.. no.

It seems some of you don't realize that Tech-Use is more than just the ability to use tech .

It is your engineering and your manufacturing skill all rolled into one ball. The skill is used to construct things, so it's more than reasonable, and down-right logical to use it to de construct things.

Beyond this, it's a reoccurring theme within the Warhammer 40K universe to worry less about the micro and more about the macro; that relates to this game in many ways, but specifically here with Tech-Use as being a macro skill. All the skills in this respect are macro skills; Medicae covers the vast array of medical knowledge and skill available in the 41st millenium; Operate(craft), though divided, is not so specific as our own real-world example of a Class X Drivers' Licence , instead covering various theatres of travel. Even Lore, with its extensive break-down, is actually a varitable ton of macro-skills, because each of those skills covers every aspect of their speciality. To put this into scope, The Horus Heresy and the Long War covers thousands of battles with hundreds of factions.

When you realize the sheer macro these skills are set at, maybe demolitions being covered by Tech-Use (which would heavily overlap it regardless) is not such a crazy concept.

Excellent point with the medicae.

To me, it's incredibly strange to have Tech-Use as a replacement for Demolitions. Demolitions encompasses not only everything from sticks of dynamite to a fuse, but also the production of said demolitions (which may in no way include anything that I'd expect to be covered by Tech-Use), and more importantly; the ability to judge where to place explosives, or judge the structural integrity of a building.

Demolitions is one of the skills which removal never made any sense to me whatsoever.

Roll Tech-Use to determine where you'd be best served to place explosives to bring down this derelict building? Ummm.. no.

It seems some of you don't realize that Tech-Use is more than just the ability to use tech .

It is your engineering and your manufacturing skill all rolled into one ball. The skill is used to construct things, so it's more than reasonable, and down-right logical to use it to de construct things.

[...]

So your argument's foundation is that, in a nutshell, Tech-Use makes you an architect, and being an architect makes you apt to be a demolitionist?

I don't know about you, but that's one really wide stretch to me.

Also, Medicae doesn't cover the wide scope of the medical capabilities of the 41st Millennium; it covers how well you do when trying to apply your personal knowledge in the field of medicae. This may or may not include such a wide scope of capabilities, but it also may not. The same goes for Operate (Surface) and as for The Horus Heresy and the Long War (which is a terrible skill that should already have been covered by Legend or Archaic ), again, the skill doesn't imply that you have a wide knowledge of all these separate events, but rather the skill exists to determine whether you do or not.

So the question comes down to whether or not the Tech-Use skill should cover whether or not you know anything about Demolitions. The roll of the Tech-Use skill determines whether you know how to bring down a building or not.

I say that it is completely reasonable that yes, Tech-Use might include the knowledge one how to make a trigger or timer, but there's no reason it should allow you to make explosives or be able to determine where to place such explosives.

If you want Tech-Use to encompass Demolitions, you should probably rename the skill and reword it's description(s). Each skill should encompass a scope and a theme, and fulfil a mechanically or narratively relevant purpose relative to that scope and theme.

My point being that while each skill has a certain scope, having Demolitions under Tech-Use makes as much sense as it would make to have Survival under Navigate (Surface). It's not a matter of scope, it's a matter of each skill and what it is .

To me, it's incredibly strange to have Tech-Use as a replacement for Demolitions. Demolitions encompasses not only everything from sticks of dynamite to a fuse, but also the production of said demolitions (which may in no way include anything that I'd expect to be covered by Tech-Use), and more importantly; the ability to judge where to place explosives, or judge the structural integrity of a building.

Demolitions is one of the skills which removal never made any sense to me whatsoever.

Roll Tech-Use to determine where you'd be best served to place explosives to bring down this derelict building? Ummm.. no.

It seems some of you don't realize that Tech-Use is more than just the ability to use tech .

It is your engineering and your manufacturing skill all rolled into one ball. The skill is used to construct things, so it's more than reasonable, and down-right logical to use it to de construct things.

[...]

So your argument's foundation is that, in a nutshell, Tech-Use makes you an architect, and being an architect makes you apt to be a demolitionist?

I don't know about you, but that's one really wide stretch to me.

Also, Medicae doesn't cover the wide scope of the medical capabilities of the 41st Millennium; it covers how well you do when trying to apply your personal knowledge in the field of medicae. This may or may not include such a wide scope of capabilities, but it also may not. The same goes for Operate (Surface) and as for The Horus Heresy and the Long War (which is a terrible skill that should already have been covered by Legend or Archaic ), again, the skill doesn't imply that you have a wide knowledge of all these separate events, but rather the skill exists to determine whether you do or not.

So the question comes down to whether or not the Tech-Use skill should cover whether or not you know anything about Demolitions. The roll of the Tech-Use skill determines whether you know how to bring down a building or not.

I say that it is completely reasonable that yes, Tech-Use might include the knowledge one how to make a trigger or timer, but there's no reason it should allow you to make explosives or be able to determine where to place such explosives.

If you want Tech-Use to encompass Demolitions, you should probably rename the skill and reword it's description(s). Each skill should encompass a scope and a theme, and fulfil a mechanically or narratively relevant purpose relative to that scope and theme.

My point being that while each skill has a certain scope, having Demolitions under Tech-Use makes as much sense as it would make to have Survival under Navigate (Surface). It's not a matter of scope, it's a matter of each skill and what it is .

No. My "argument" is that tech-use is a macro-skill which covers building any and everything with even a remote technology base. You use it to build powered armour; does that make you a better demolitionist? No.

You use it to build Lasguns; does that make you a better demolitionist? No.

But of the applicable uses, it also makes you an architect AND an engineer; you know the structural strong and weak-points of a building with this skill. And it is that portion of the skill which makes you a better demolitionist.

Beyond this though, Tech-Use is exactly the skill you'd use to make explosives, because it's the "I make stuff with this skill" skill. And making stuff requires engineering; ergo, the skill is all-encompassing in regards to something like demolitions.

And it makes sense too.

To me, it's incredibly strange to have Tech-Use as a replacement for Demolitions. Demolitions encompasses not only everything from sticks of dynamite to a fuse, but also the production of said demolitions (which may in no way include anything that I'd expect to be covered by Tech-Use), and more importantly; the ability to judge where to place explosives, or judge the structural integrity of a building.

Demolitions is one of the skills which removal never made any sense to me whatsoever.

Roll Tech-Use to determine where you'd be best served to place explosives to bring down this derelict building? Ummm.. no.

It seems some of you don't realize that Tech-Use is more than just the ability to use tech .

It is your engineering and your manufacturing skill all rolled into one ball. The skill is used to construct things, so it's more than reasonable, and down-right logical to use it to de construct things.

[...]

So your argument's foundation is that, in a nutshell, Tech-Use makes you an architect, and being an architect makes you apt to be a demolitionist?

I don't know about you, but that's one really wide stretch to me.

Also, Medicae doesn't cover the wide scope of the medical capabilities of the 41st Millennium; it covers how well you do when trying to apply your personal knowledge in the field of medicae. This may or may not include such a wide scope of capabilities, but it also may not. The same goes for Operate (Surface) and as for The Horus Heresy and the Long War (which is a terrible skill that should already have been covered by Legend or Archaic ), again, the skill doesn't imply that you have a wide knowledge of all these separate events, but rather the skill exists to determine whether you do or not.

So the question comes down to whether or not the Tech-Use skill should cover whether or not you know anything about Demolitions. The roll of the Tech-Use skill determines whether you know how to bring down a building or not.

I say that it is completely reasonable that yes, Tech-Use might include the knowledge one how to make a trigger or timer, but there's no reason it should allow you to make explosives or be able to determine where to place such explosives.

If you want Tech-Use to encompass Demolitions, you should probably rename the skill and reword it's description(s). Each skill should encompass a scope and a theme, and fulfil a mechanically or narratively relevant purpose relative to that scope and theme.

My point being that while each skill has a certain scope, having Demolitions under Tech-Use makes as much sense as it would make to have Survival under Navigate (Surface). It's not a matter of scope, it's a matter of each skill and what it is .

No. My "argument" is that tech-use is a macro-skill which covers building any and everything with even a remote technology base. You use it to build powered armour; does that make you a better demolitionist? No.

You use it to build Lasguns; does that make you a better demolitionist? No.

But of the applicable uses, it also makes you an architect AND an engineer; you know the structural strong and weak-points of a building with this skill. And it is that portion of the skill which makes you a better demolitionist.

Beyond this though, Tech-Use is exactly the skill you'd use to make explosives, because it's the "I make stuff with this skill" skill. And making stuff requires engineering; ergo, the skill is all-encompassing in regards to something like demolitions.

And it makes sense too.

Yeah, I'm not buying it, nor does it make sense. Tech-Use should not be nearly as all-encompassing as you suggest. Skills need to have a certain scope, but the "macro" you suggest is beyond anything reasonable for a single skill of any kind.

To me, it's incredibly strange to have Tech-Use as a replacement for Demolitions. Demolitions encompasses not only everything from sticks of dynamite to a fuse, but also the production of said demolitions (which may in no way include anything that I'd expect to be covered by Tech-Use), and more importantly; the ability to judge where to place explosives, or judge the structural integrity of a building.

Demolitions is one of the skills which removal never made any sense to me whatsoever.

Roll Tech-Use to determine where you'd be best served to place explosives to bring down this derelict building? Ummm.. no.

It seems some of you don't realize that Tech-Use is more than just the ability to use tech .

It is your engineering and your manufacturing skill all rolled into one ball. The skill is used to construct things, so it's more than reasonable, and down-right logical to use it to de construct things.

[...]

So your argument's foundation is that, in a nutshell, Tech-Use makes you an architect, and being an architect makes you apt to be a demolitionist?

I don't know about you, but that's one really wide stretch to me.

Also, Medicae doesn't cover the wide scope of the medical capabilities of the 41st Millennium; it covers how well you do when trying to apply your personal knowledge in the field of medicae. This may or may not include such a wide scope of capabilities, but it also may not. The same goes for Operate (Surface) and as for The Horus Heresy and the Long War (which is a terrible skill that should already have been covered by Legend or Archaic ), again, the skill doesn't imply that you have a wide knowledge of all these separate events, but rather the skill exists to determine whether you do or not.

So the question comes down to whether or not the Tech-Use skill should cover whether or not you know anything about Demolitions. The roll of the Tech-Use skill determines whether you know how to bring down a building or not.

I say that it is completely reasonable that yes, Tech-Use might include the knowledge one how to make a trigger or timer, but there's no reason it should allow you to make explosives or be able to determine where to place such explosives.

If you want Tech-Use to encompass Demolitions, you should probably rename the skill and reword it's description(s). Each skill should encompass a scope and a theme, and fulfil a mechanically or narratively relevant purpose relative to that scope and theme.

My point being that while each skill has a certain scope, having Demolitions under Tech-Use makes as much sense as it would make to have Survival under Navigate (Surface). It's not a matter of scope, it's a matter of each skill and what it is .

No. My "argument" is that tech-use is a macro-skill which covers building any and everything with even a remote technology base. You use it to build powered armour; does that make you a better demolitionist? No.

You use it to build Lasguns; does that make you a better demolitionist? No.

But of the applicable uses, it also makes you an architect AND an engineer; you know the structural strong and weak-points of a building with this skill. And it is that portion of the skill which makes you a better demolitionist.

Beyond this though, Tech-Use is exactly the skill you'd use to make explosives, because it's the "I make stuff with this skill" skill. And making stuff requires engineering; ergo, the skill is all-encompassing in regards to something like demolitions.

And it makes sense too.

Under that logic, you could be an excellent gardener and know a lot about how to grow good plants while being an excellent designer and knowing how to make things look good and what looks appealing. With that combination though I do not know how to cook a decent tasting and visually stunning meal as the jump is just far too vague. I don't know how the right combinations of food work to make the right taste combination so yes it might look good but I don't know its taste, texture or anything like that. True skills with cooking requires experience and a bit of luck, the same is also true of explosives. You need to know from experience what makes for a good bit of sabotage not just knowing how to set a timer and where to pop something. Tech use is too vague.

Demolitions isn't just about knowing the weaknesses of the structure and you cannot just get that from knowing every building layout and where its main support beams are. In fact truly skilled demolitions experts know how to get the building to collapse how they want it to or are able to use the terrain and other surrounding structures to better effect. That, you cannot get from knowing the structure. And just because you are an engineer does not mean you can work on explosives. Someone who works as a PC technician can be called a support engineer. Would I trust them therefore to disable a nuclear bomb? Hell no!

It's a skill in its own right or at least needs a sub classification.

On the subject of reintroducing Demolitions as a skill, which alignment should it be? I was about to create my own thread for it, but I realized this one might do just as well.

Khorne? Nurgle? Or simply Unaligned?

I'd love to hear some thoughts on this.

My first impulse was "Khorne" because destruction. But come to think of it, demolitions involves a lot of thinking and planning (as opposed to just flinging a bomb how you feel like, which would be the not-usage of this Skill), so I'd probably say Unaligned. Besides, you can find aspects of each Chaos God in this activity.

On the other hand, why not make Demolitions a speciality of Tech-Use, like Calgor Grim suggested?

[...]

On the other hand, why not make Demolitions a speciality of Tech-Use, like Calgor Grim suggested?

Because subgroups of a Skill are functionally identical to having it as a separate skill anyway, and I don't want to mess with the setup of pre-existing skills too much. It's easier to introduce a "new" skill to a running game than it is to revamp pre-existing skill(s).

Wouldn't you have to take Demolitions "out of" the existing Tech-Use regardless of whether you do it as a Sub-Skill or a new one? Can't say I can follow you there ...

But, no matter! I'll just chalk it up to aesthetics.

In which case, see the first part of my reply!

I don't think it is a Khornate skill though, might be just me but I always see Khorne as martial pride up close and personal. Demolitions and sabotage seem like way too much subterfuge and backhandedness to make it glorious in the name of Khorne. Perhaps that is my belief system being archaic though.

It could vaguely go with the corrupting destructive influence of Nurgle but it's only a very loose link. I'd say it might justify unaligned...

Under that logic, you could be an excellent gardener and know a lot about how to grow good plants while being an excellent designer and knowing how to make things look good and what looks appealing. With that combination though I do not know how to cook a decent tasting and visually stunning meal as the jump is just far too vague. I don't know how the right combinations of food work to make the right taste combination so yes it might look good but I don't know its taste, texture or anything like that. True skills with cooking requires experience and a bit of luck, the same is also true of explosives. You need to know from experience what makes for a good bit of sabotage not just knowing how to set a timer and where to pop something. Tech use is too vague.

Demolitions isn't just about knowing the weaknesses of the structure and you cannot just get that from knowing every building layout and where its main support beams are. In fact truly skilled demolitions experts know how to get the building to collapse how they want it to or are able to use the terrain and other surrounding structures to better effect. That, you cannot get from knowing the structure. And just because you are an engineer does not mean you can work on explosives. Someone who works as a PC technician can be called a support engineer. Would I trust them therefore to disable a nuclear bomb? Hell no!

It's a skill in its own right or at least needs a sub classification.

Look, all I'm gonna say regarding use is that I didn't design the system, I'm just an interpreter.

But beyond this, tech-use isn't "vague"; it's quite clear on what you can and cannot do with the skill. It's macro - perhaps a bit too macro for some people, but like I said previously, I didn't design the system.

All I can say though is that demolitions as its own skill is too micro for this system, even if you and others believe that Tech-Use is otherwise too macro.

The only other thing I can suggest is turning Demolitions into a talent based off of intelligence, like a combat skill.